Syrio Forel

[Roi Woodt]

Mormont,

Just to draw your attention back to a comment of mine.

Just before the Brienne chapter you mentioned, if someone had made a claim that the Hound was still alive, would you think that such a thing was not possible?

Because, imo, it's about the same, except, he is now waiting longer with the 'revelation' part.

[mormont]

Mormont,

Just to draw your attention back to a comment of mine.

Just before the Brienne chapter you mentioned, if someone had made a claim that the Hound was still alive, would you think that such a thing was not possible?

Because, imo, it's about the same, except, he is now waiting longer with the 'revelation' part.

He sure is, isn't he? ;)

It's a poor comparison for many reasons: it does more to highlight the weaknesses of the 'Syrio lives!' argument than to bolster it. The time elapsed isn't the half of it - the situations we last see the two in are radically different.

But ultimately, if what you're saying is 'was there any evidence for Sandor's survival prior to that chapter?', the answer's 'no', of course. So if you're hanging your hopes entirely on getting an equivalent chapter for Syrio, after three books with nary a mention, by all means continue to do so. I'll not be joining you in holding my breath, I'm afraid. :)

[jjames36]

Now this being said, your point about the cells may not be logically provable, but it is the most reasonable conclusion, because when we see three of those cells and they are all solitary, we only need a little extrapolation to say that it's likely all the cells are like that, whereas to say that at least one of the cells is communal is pulled out of thin air, and curiously not counted as an "absence" evidence, this time (probably because it goes against the desired conclusion).

Thank you. And completely agreed. This is why I'm willing to say Syrio is almost certainly not Jaqen. (I almost never speak in absolutes. See that last sentence was just another example. <_< )

My take on any "Syrio is alive" theory is that: Yes it is possible Syrio lives/is Jaqen/is superman, about as much as it is that pigs fly in Westeros; it's a work of fiction and we have a suspicious dearth of information concerning the airborne skills of the porcine race, but that's the only thing we have, there's no supporting evidence, just points against it that needs to be dismissed (for example the absence of flying pigs sighting for four books)

Also agreed.

But really this reply is for AvengingArya. Obviously, EB is being sarcastic, (thank goodness) but this flying pigs theory is the sort of thing that will come out of accepting absence of explanation as evidence prima facie, which in law would never happen. Few, if any, attorneys would accept a case based entirely on speculation derived from absences. No grand jury (if one were needed) would issue an indictment, and almost any judge would instantly dismiss the case. It is not, in other words, a case at all, but a random conspiracy theory.

Like you and Mormont have said in an earlier posts, absences can serve as circumstantial evidence when there's some other concrete evidence from which to interpret them. Those absences, having now been given some ground from which to interpret them, can then serve to make the case developed from that concrete evidence stronger.

But it is my opinion that absences on their own do not create a case, either in law or in literary analysis.

I have, for instance, no case that George W. Bush and the rest of his administration allowed 9/11 to happen just because I can't find evidence to prove they didn't. I do, however, have a case that FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen, because there is some obvious, well documented concrete circumstantial evidence supporting that conclusion. (For the record, this is not a forum about history (recent or less recent), so I'm going no further with this argument, but it is noteworthy that one of the pieces of evidence in the FDR debate is, in fact, an absence. It just isn't the only piece.) My point is simply to illustrate that given the concrete evidence in the latter case, the "court" of serious historians often "tries" it at the same time they instantly dismiss the former (at least for now pending new, actual evidence emerging). One is a legitimate case. The other is a conspiracy theory, and they are treated as such.

I'd compare the Syrio equals Jaqen argument to a conspiracy theory before I compared it to a legitimate case based evidence.

j

[Errant Bard]

Obviously, EB is being sarcastic

[...]

The other is a conspiracy theory, and they are treated as such.

Actually, there was no sarcasm in my post, I told it as straight as could be: This is a work of fiction, therefore everything is possible, and it is as possible for GRRM to decide that pigs will fly in Westeros than to decide Syrio never died: the possibility is ridiculously small, but it is there. I just thought flying pigs would better illustrate my point.

There are so many conspiracist that sometimes, some of them are right, so it goes for flying pigs... I'm fairly certain, speaking of that, that there must be some in discworld.

Anyway, being theoretically possible never meant being convincing, likely or not loony, ask Nightflyer.

[Rydis]

Well..we have this:

If he lived, why hasn't he shown up again..to find arya, in anyones POV or anywhere in westeros at all. The Knight he fought against survived. The whole "the dancer interferred" doesn't say anything. One probably wouldn't come out with "well, the dancer interferred so I was to busy killing him". The interferred gets the point across..and the fact im here says something.

If it was Syrio that was the facless man..well they dont take the identity twice, iirc..so we will never see that syrio again if he was the faceless man.

And Syrio is well known in Bravoss, he would of been playing that party for many many many years..and it wouldn't of seemed to prove a point for them if he changed just after showing Arya to fight. It doesn't add up.

No missing person in the series has been gone as long as syrio that wasn't dead. Everything supports his death except the "we didn't see him die". Anything else is just forcing the issue to make things fit. Thats not proof of anything.

If he did escape and went into hiding. He has no real reason to continue to hide. He was ust a teacher. If he went to bravoss to escape..he still has little to gain in coming back into the story. he's dead folks.

[Mad Monkey]

If Syrio is a Faceless Man, you could argue that he is now Meryn Trant. I mean, I wouldn't say that, but you could!

[jjames36]

Actually, there was no sarcasm in my post, I told it as straight as could be: This is a work of fiction, therefore everything is possible, and it is as possible for GRRM to decide that pigs will fly in Westeros than to decide Syrio never died: the possibility is ridiculously small, but it is there. I just thought flying pigs would better illustrate my point.

Fair enough. Sorry to misrepresent your point.

Anyway, being theoretically possible never meant being convincing, likely or not loony, ask Nightflyer.

Ah, yes Nightflyer. Entertaining if not taken remotely seriously, that one.

j

[cybroleach]

If Syrio is a Faceless Man, you could argue that he is now Meryn Trant. I mean, I wouldn't say that, but you could!

You could but the only reason to assume Syrio is a FM is so he could be Jaqen. Otherwise we can look at any character as a FM.

Well..we have this:

If he lived, why hasn't he shown up again..to find arya, in anyones POV or anywhere in westeros at all. The Knight he fought against survived. The whole "the dancer interferred" doesn't say anything. One probably wouldn't come out with "well, the dancer interferred so I was to busy killing him". The interferred gets the point across..and the fact im here says something.

We dont even have that it's by know means a direct quote from Meryn, JUST Cersei memory of part of a conversation.

For all we know Meryn did give a detailed account of his beheading Syrio, and Cersei just trivialized it as she does all the time. I'd even say this conversation suggests that Syrio did just die otherwise Cersei would have a fit that this man is still at large. Excluding your elaborate theory ROI ofcurse.

[AvengingAryaFan]

If [syrio] lived, why hasn't he shown up again..to find arya, in anyones POV or anywhere in westeros at all. The Knight he fought against survived. The whole "the dancer interferred" doesn't say anything. One probably wouldn't come out with "well, the dancer interferred so I was to busy killing him". The interferred gets the point across..and the fact im here says something.

And if you were a Braavosi fencing instructor who had recently gone to work for a major power in KL, only to have that major power suddenly and completely slaughtered by the other major power in KL, what would you do, and where would you go? That's pretty easy for me; I might go someplace else, but there's an excellent chance I'd simply go back to Braavos, where I know who I can trust, washing my hands of the viciously power struggling Westerosi.

Arya wandered for quite a while in Westeros. In the last few months she's been in Braavos, publicly visible on the waterfront but attracting no attention, especially not as Arya of House Stark. Braavos is about the last place in the world she'd be expected, so Syrio certainly has no reason to look for her here. Arya might look for Syrio, except for a few things: it's contrary to her efforts to relinquish her identity as Arya of House Stark, she thought he was "probably dead", and her chores give her little opportunity to search. So even if Syrio is currently in Braavos, unless he frequents the waterfront it's a matter of chance if and when he crosses her path. He could have been in Braavos continuously since the fall of the Hand and not yet have seen Arya.

I don't subscribe to Syrio=FM or Syrio=Jaqen. If he was an FM, he would very probably become aware of her (it seems a small organization); but, whatever.

No missing person in the series has been gone as long as syrio that wasn't dead.

This is true; but if Martin planned him as a foil for Arya in Braavos, that's no surprise, because the storyline is only just now getting to the point where Arya is ready to need a foil in Braavos. In the meantime, Syrio couldn't have interacted with Arya if he'd wanted to - nobody knew where she was, nor did she know where, or even if, he was.

Everything supports his death except the "we didn't see him die". Anything else is just forcing the issue to make things fit. Thats not proof of anything.

Ha ha, very funny, you're doing a parody of an argument without evidence, right? "Everything" (unidentified, thus effectively meaning nothing) supports his death? Oh, you've left your opponents one item of "evidence": that we didn't see him die. How generous, and perceptive! Ah, but "Anything else" is just forcing the issue. Ha ha HA ha. Well argued! (Not) But I'm sorry you weren't able to comprehend the contrary evidence and reasoning that has been set forth above, such as by the OP and myself; I'm sure your time is better spent otherwise.

If he did escape and went into hiding. He has no real reason to continue to hide. He was ust a teacher.

I agree with this - except he might expect to be persona non grata in KL and other Lannister lands, in view of his killing five guards to prevent them from doing their job. Yes, if he returned to Braavos he'd have no reason to hide. But who would be looking for him in Braavos? How? Or why would he be looking for Arya in Braavos?

If he went to bravoss to escape..he still has little to gain in coming back into the story. he's dead folks.

Your confidence in his being dead is so clearly without adequate basis that it helps reassure me that I'm probably on the right track.

[Mad Monkey]

Ser Meryn: So me and my boys were all like, "Give us the girl!" and the little dancer dude went all, "Hey, screw you!" and so I said "Yeah, well, I can screw you harder!" and then we all started kung-fu fighting (them cats were fast! as! lightning!) and I was totally kicking his ass, right. He was all like, "Hah!" and I was like "wa-POWWW!" and I pwned his ass back right back to Volantis! Pretty sweet, huh?"

Cersei: Blah blah blah dancing blah blah blah you're not Jaime so I can't hear anything you're saying blah blah blah.

(excerpt from Kingsguard White Book Transcript, pp. 560 - 561)

[Roi Woodt]

Rydes,

No missing person in the series has been gone as long as syrio that wasn't dead.

Benjen.

It's a poor comparison for many reasons: it does more to highlight the weaknesses of the 'Syrio lives!' argument than to bolster it. The time elapsed isn't the half of it - the situations we last see the two in are radically different

I used Sandor only to show you that an argument like the one below, isn't the best in this story, when we have kind of a similar, most probably left for death character like Sandor turning up in a monastry.

It would be bad writing for an author to have a crucial twist based entirely on things that he omitted due to these boundaries: things the reader could not possibly know and whose omission would seem to be part of the normal limits of the form.

The time elapsed isn't the half of it

I have other arguments for this one: like Benjen, the giant shadow, and much more mysteries that he, the author, keeps hidden for his own reasons. Imo, that's a weak argument as well.

However, obviously and unfortunately, my arguments aren't doing anything again :-(. I wanted to create some doubts in the "Syrio is dead" followers, but once again, I failed.

[Errant Bard]

This is true; but if Martin planned him as a foil for Arya in Braavos, that's no surprise, because the storyline is only just now getting to the point where Arya is ready to need a foil in Braavos.

No. Just no. This is similar to saying "Jon is ready to need a foil at the Wall, therefore Benjen will appear to him", or something.

For some reason this point of view annoys me more than it ought to. Maybe it has to do with seeing that the underlying argument is the idea that a character cannot move in the story without being prompted by some mentor-figure popping up at odd times, when narratively the time for mentors is well past (for girls, boys are allowed to have original circumstances and own goals). It has certainly to do with the (now defunct) five years gap, which would have made Arya 16 and any story device about some teacher met years ago for a few weeks popping up to save the day even lamer. A lot of it is about the ludicrousness of starting from a (entirely imaginary) future event to demonstrate its own premise. Probably also about the idea that it's cool to reintroduce people who had a perfect exit when ASOIAF is already getting too bloated with characters, at the time where the author will have to narrow the scope and mesh the story threads together. Most certainly and definitely the fact that any such "foil" inherently diminishes Arya's independence, resourcefulness and, globally, worth, when it's entirely unecessary for her, the plot, or the narrative.

Either way, it sucks.

[Rydis]

And if you were a Braavosi fencing instructor who had recently gone to work for a major power in KL, only to have that major power suddenly and completely slaughtered by the other major power in KL, what would you do

There is really nothing to gain story wise from this direction, other than "he survived and fled to Braavos, happily ever after." I'll elaborate more in a second.

Syrio has no need to look for her in Braavos?..He has no reason to look for her anywhere. The man was just a hired teacher that taught for a (well no sure on the amount of days but it wasn't long). He is a Braavosi, so he has no real reason to deal into Westeros events and politics that are taking place.

Ok, I can see how Arya goes down the FM path, and Bam..old better teacher shows up to bring her back to the correct path and continue teaching. However this would = very lame writing. The whole escape would be extremely over the top and the chance meeting forced just to, as an above poster said, the continuing of her story. Its bad writing and a little cliche.

hey!....we agree :)

No, I got it, its just forced inductions about how he "could" have survived, which can be made of any situation and scenary. Heck, we could say people have been brought back to life in the series, so maybe he got the Breath of Life and escaped. "Anything" is possible, but its so unlikely and would result in bad writing to pull it off. Take the Original Post, the literal "see with your eyes" was meant to show us he was a great swordsman and was winning. However, anyone seeing with their eyes would see he was losing when she left. Its a forced deduction to fit a theory that something could happen..sigh im trying to think of an example but drawing blanks at the moment to compare with. Best way I can describe most of the theories supporting his survival is, "how can you prove something doesn't exist if you never seen it?" argument some people make. Its flawed.

But regardless..even if we are all wrong and he did survive..what is there to gain..for him, for the story as a whole? It makes no sense for him what-so-ever to be involved in whats going on.

We shall see.

I suck at explaniations so if you just skip all that, this is it..

Just because something possible doesn't make it plausible. Its at best a crack-pot theory whos only merit lies in uknowns and what-ifs, and if true, results in little to nothing to the story. A "we will bring back this guy to set everything right, because you know..he didn't die. So we will bring him back after all this..its just far-fetched and sloppy.

[Greywolf2375]

Rydes,

Benjen.

When did we find out Benjen is alive?

[Rydis]

we didn't, hes a person whos been missing longer than Syrio.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Syrio has no need to look for her in Braavos?..He has no reason to look for her anywhere. The man was just a hired teacher that taught for a (well no sure on the amount of days but it wasn't long). He is a Braavosi, so he has no real reason to deal into Westeros events and politics that are taking place.

This is an odd position for a member of the "Syrio is dead" crowd to take. Their view is usually that Syrio is so devoted to Arya that he suicidally launches himself at five guardsmen plus Trant in a heroic gesture to give Arya a little head start. That kind of devotion-to-the-death doesn't reconcile well with your "Aw, he's just a Braavosi teacher, why would he care?".

I see Syrio as slightly less selflessly devoted (i.e., not suicidally) to Arya than do most of the "Syrio is dead" camp; yet even I consider that the effort and risk he undertook for her demonstrated a level of caring well beyond that implied by "The man was just a hired teacher ..."

Ok, I can see how Arya goes down the FM path, and Bam..old better teacher shows up to bring her back to the correct path and continue teaching. However this would = very lame writing. The whole escape would be extremely over the top and the chance meeting forced just to, as an above poster said, the continuing of her story. Its bad writing and a little cliche.

George is extraordinary in many ways. He does terrific detail, clever misdirection, intricate interlocking plots and character arcs, three dimensional characters, frequent growth and change and real jeopardy for characters - in general, "realistic fantasy". But he still primarily employs known character tropes; consequently, many of his individual characters can be said to be trite, at least until they evolve into something different or are suddenly killed - consider Jon, Dany, King Robert, Sansa, even Ned. Looked at some ways, everything can seem trite unless, as EB would have it, the character or plot completely subverts a standard trope. Frankly, I think EB is destined to disappointment in his desire for shocking trope subversion - I don't believe Martin will allow this massive fantasy epic to become unpopular by seriously disappointing a lot of readers, which would be the result of truly radical subversion. Complete originality in tropes isn't where Martin's strength lies, but in the detail, scope and believability of the story. Indeed, the tropes exist for a reason, and it could be argued that realism is better served if most tropes are recognizable. George kills some popular characters, and he can bring back some popular characters, too. George makes decisions for many good reasons; that you have the temerity to assert boldly that reintroducing a popular character who disappeared under suspicious circumstances "lame writing" is unwarranted and presumptuous.

As for stating "the whole escape would be extremely over the top", that's just wrong. It might be over the top if it were outrageous; but the fact that a few usually thoughtful people, plus yourself, say it is outrageous doesn't make it so. I've laid out pretty good evidence in support of conjecture that Syrio likely survived, and a number of intelligent people have concurred. It's very easy to ignore the numerous hints and lunge at the big, emotional picture that George paints of Syrio losing his stick to the well armored knight. It's more difficult to sort through the hints that Martin strews about without big, bold "LOOK AT ME" signs on them. People who sort through those hints fairly, rather than digging in their heels and stonewalling in defense of their first impression (and their self-perceived infallibility), will find there's a very good case for Syrio surviving. But although it'd be a great world if I could, I unfortunately can't force people to be fair or reasonable.

I'm going to quickly review the evidence in summary form, without providing cites or extensive arguments - those have been set forth before. I do this just to remind you that there is, in fact, a great deal of text to support the various conjectures and subconjectures leading to the conclusion that "Syrio probably lives". Of course, support doesn't equal proof; nobody knows what happened, because George didn't write it and he refuses to answer the question.

"Syrio is dead": Trant lives, and we last saw Syrio losing his sword to Trant, who was slashing at him from within impregnable armor. Syrio said he wouldn't run; but if he lived without running he would have killed Trant, so since Trant survived Syrio must have died. People cite the disparity in armor as the decisive factor. There's really very little here.

"Syrio is likely alive": 1) no textually supported reason to think Syrio committed suicide; if he didn't commit suicide then he believed he could overcome five guardsmen and Trant. 2) Syrio is, by reputation and demonstration, a helluva fighter, accustomed to wearing little or no armor. 3) By contrast, Trant is not held in particularly high esteem as a fighter by anybody, textually; rather, Syrio expressly disrespects Trant - as did Barristan Selmy, another old but extremely talented fighter, and as did Jaime. 4)No matter the extra-textual opinions, it is clear that full armor is not an overwhelming advantage in Westeros. Bronn beat Vardis Egen, and Oberyn overcame Gregor Clegane. On the other hand, Jorah Mormont beat Khal Drogo's fierce bloodriders due to his armor; they were perhaps more skilled than he was in some sense. But one of the most telling fights is between Syrio and five Lannister guardsmen; they aren't untrained, and they went at him from three sides; he overcame all five of them in mere seconds, using only a stick, and with less armor than they had. They did not have the full armor of Trant, but they had numbers. Syrio didn't merely beat them, he destroyed them. So the text provides many reasons to think that the lightly armored Syrio has quite a reasonable chance of overcoming the fully armored Trant. 5) Yet further, Syrio managed to dodge around five guardsmen, all furiously swinging Westerosi swords at him, without suffering so much as a scratch. This is textual evidence supporting a conjecture that Syrio might well be able to avoid Trant's sword. 6) Even further, Syrio demonstrated skill in using the balance problems inherent in swinging a large Westerosi sword against the sword wielder. 7) Against a dangerous and fully armored knight, the common wisdom is to dance around and wear out said knight. This is a relatively low risk strategy that should have been very easy for the extremely fast Syrio against the relatively slow Trant, especially considering that Trant was encumbered and his visibility reduced, and the room was littered with dead guardsmen and their weapons, providing a treacherous field that would greatly advantage the more mobile, and faster, Syrio. If Syrio feared Trant, and valued his life at all, that tactic would practically have guaranteed that Arya had time to get away and Syrio would have survived. So Syrio had a clear path to perform his appointed task (give Arya a head start) and still survive. After wearing Trant out, he could at least have walked away. There were ample swords available to enable him to parry and harry Trant as necessary. 8) Syrio did not follow the "common wisdom" tactics with Trant; instead he chose to engage him somewhat closely. I say "chose" because a fighter of Syrio's obvious abilities does not do things at random, but plans. Given the common wisdom and Syrio's choice not to follow it, in conjunction with his stated contempt for Trant, it is more than reasonable to conclude that Syrio had no significant fear of Trant. Given that he could dodge the swords of five guards at once, and Trant's strongly hinted mediocrity, it is more than reasonable to surmise that Syrio could avoid Trant's blade all day long. All of this surmise is supported textually. And that's sufficient: Syrio demonstrated an almost superhuman ability to overcome Westerosi fighters; he apparently believed he could overcome Trant plus five guardsmen, so once the fight is reduced to just Syrio and Trant, it should have been a cakewalk for him.

There is the fact that Syrio did not kill Trant; but then, it's somewhat difficult to kill a fully armored knight, especially one who is running away. And if Syrio knocked Trant down, as he did with the guardsmen, then Trant would have been in grave danger had he stuck around to give Syrio time to get a sword through a weak spot of the armor. Trant, aside from being considered mediocre, has also demonstrated cowardice - against Selmy, and in hitting defenseless Sansa. The only evidence that he had any courage was in his attacking a man who had just demolished five guardsmen; but clearly he thought the guardsmen were simply incompetent. (His opinion of the guardsmen is not well supported; Lannister would have little use for "guardsmen" that had no skill.) So that attack didn't demonstrate so much courage as a miscalculation. It's reasonable to suppose that Syrio was fully capable of putting Trant on the floor, because he did so with the guardsmen who were less encumbered than Trant, and had a less cluttered field (textually supported conjecture). Once knocked to the floor, Trant would not be able to fight effectively and would be vulnerable to whatever Syrio might do with a found sword; in such a situation the wise thing to do would be to beat a hasty retreat, particularly in view of the fact that, Arya being gone, Trant had very little to gain by fighting Syrio. That isn't the only way Syrio could have survived, by any means, but it is consistent with Syrio's demonstrated talents, with the fact that Trant survived and was (probably) silent about Syrio and about the five guardsmen, and with Syrio being free to walk away.

Your side has Syrio's stick being sheared off. That isn't significant because Syrio wasn't injured, the stick was of very little value anyway, and other swords were readily available. Your side has Trant being fully armored, while Syrio is practically unarmored. That isn't significant because Syrio avoided five swords simultaneously, hence can avoid Trant's sword; and because putting Trant on the ground does not require armor, as Syrio demonstrated with the guardsmen. The only thing your side really has is a scene described emotionally by Arya as being very scary, with the fully armored knight against Syrio, who in the course of the fight lost half his stick. We have no evidence that the stick was sheared against Syrio's wishes, and reason to believe that a fighter of Syrio's surpassing skill would use the stick to accomplish his goal, not protect the stick from harm for the sake of appearances. Bah. Your side has a great deal of emotional appearance, and very little underlying fact, to support their "certainty" that Syrio is dead. Our side has all the interesting, bit-by-bit evidence that the fight should have favored Syrio (once he rid himself of the guardsmen).

Those that are content to dismiss the textually supported conjectures set forth above about the fight are welcome to their refusal to see; but I cannot find their position remotely compelling. Syrio beat the shit out of five guardsmen, and some of the same techniques would work just fine to overcome Trant. Sacrificing the stick is of no significance in view of available replacements. Granted, Martin could have Trant be more skilled than we are led to believe, and he could have Trant connect with Syrio, killing him. But that would be contrary to what the text, carefully parsed, suggests, especially if the parser isn't overwhelmed by Arya's emotional assessment of the prospects for the fight. Syrio could have been killed, but probably wasn't, and certainly shouldn't have been according to the textual descriptions of the scene, Trant's "skill" vs. Syrio's, etc.

No, I got it, its just forced inductions about how he "could" have survived, which can be made of any situation and scenary. Heck, we could say people have been brought back to life in the series, so maybe he got the Breath of Life and escaped. "Anything" is possible, but its so unlikely and would result in bad writing to pull it off. Take the Original Post, the literal "see with your eyes" was meant to show us he was a great swordsman and was winning. However, anyone seeing with their eyes would see he was losing when she left. Its a forced deduction to fit a theory that something could happen..sigh im trying to think of an example but drawing blanks at the moment to compare with. Best way I can describe most of the theories supporting his survival is, "how can you prove something doesn't exist if you never seen it?" argument some people make. Its flawed.

But regardless..even if we are all wrong and he did survive..what is there to gain..for him, for the story as a whole? It makes no sense for him what-so-ever to be involved in whats going on.

It's not "forced inductions" at all. I could care less whether or not Syrio survived. I'd be perfectly happy to see pieces of him strewn all over the floor of that hall, mixed with the dead guardsmen. In a cold and careful analysis unsullied by a desired outcome, I conclude that his death was unlikely in view of what we know about the fighters, the scene, etc., etc. I set forth a summary of my bases for that conclusion above; you've set forth nothing but bald conclusions. You can ignore my argument, but you have no comparable argument or evidence to compete with it - you have only the unwarranted certainty of your belief.

As for what there is to gain by reintroducing Syrio: it's true I don't really know. I'm confident that Syrio should have survived, but that doesn't mean Martin needs to reintroduce him. However, with Arya now being in Braavos, the nexus is pretty clear - geographical coincidence, and the very perceptive Syrio presumably able to see through Arya's "nobody" disguise. What for? That's up to Martin. If anything, I can certainly imagine Syrio being useful to Arya to help her return to Westeros. Maybe he just wanted to have an option in case he didn't come up with a better way to get Arya back to Westeros; or maybe he wanted to reintroduce Syrio because he's clearly a fan favorite. Martin kills some popular people, but he gets something for those deaths. Most people blindly assume Syrio is dead, yet we're not outraged, like we were about the RW; we're not horrified, like we were about Ned; we're not graphically shown the horrors of losing a sword fight. If Syrio returns we lose a little of the sense that he was willing to commit suicide just to help Arya a little, but we gain even more appreciation for his badassness; that's no net loss, and to my mind is in fact a gain (because I'd rather Syrio was good than stupid). So: why NOT bring Syrio back, if there's some way he can serve the plot? And given that an important cast member (Arya) needs to get reinvolved in Westeros, it's entirely possible that Syrio could be useful.

We shall see.

Or not. The textual evidence suggesting Syrio should have survived is stronger than the textual evidence that he should have died, regardless of whether Martin reintroduces Syrio or not. I hope he is reintroduced - not because I care about the character, or because I want Arya to have help (I'd be perfectly happy for her to manage everything on her own) - but simply because it's the only way we will get closure on this issue. It's just a convenience that the only possible closure would prove me right ;-)

Just because something possible doesn't make it plausible. Its at best a crack-pot theory whos only merit lies in uknowns and what-ifs, and if true, results in little to nothing to the story. A "we will bring back this guy to set everything right, because you know..he didn't die. So we will bring him back after all this..its just far-fetched and sloppy.

Of course; nor does a possibility make such result implausible. Proper analysis of the pro and con evidence indicates the plausibility of a particular conclusion.

You seem to think that if you keep stating conclusions in different ways, it's just as good as presenting an actual argument with evidence and logic to support those conclusions. If that's what you think, you're wrong; if it's not, then why do you persist in making so many boastful, arrogant conclusions while presenting zero evidence and logic to support them? Who are you impressing - yourself? Yet you go on and on: my "Syrio probably survived" theory is "far-fetched", "sloppy", "crack-pot", "forced induction", "over the top". You present no evidence for your position, and none contradicting mine. Your writing is loaded with conclusions and devoid of either evidence or logic. This, I suppose, is why Adam and Eve were consumed by shame when they became informed: before that they, like you, were too ignorant to be ashamed. Ignorance is bliss.

Every theory about what happened to Syrio is based on unknowns and what-ifs, because we do NOT know what happened and George will not say. But conjecture can be supported by textual evidence and logic to a greater or lesser degree - or, in your case, by no textual evidence or logic whatsoever.

I've put my evidence and logic out there for you to challenge. I'd love to have somebody reasonable actually give a thoughtful challenge to it, but alas the people capable of such thoughtful analysis are way too committed to their old conclusions to be able to give fair consideration to the new ideas that have been put forth recently. For them there's nothing new under the sun.

[AvengingAryaFan]

This is true; but if Martin planned him as a foil for Arya in Braavos, that's no surprise, because the storyline is only just now getting to the point where Arya is ready to need a foil in Braavos.

No. Just no. This is similar to saying "Jon is ready to need a foil at the Wall, therefore Benjen will appear to him", or something.

For some reason this point of view annoys me more than it ought to. Maybe it has to do with seeing that the underlying argument is the idea that a character cannot move in the story without being prompted by some mentor-figure popping up at odd times, when narratively the time for mentors is well past (for girls, boys are allowed to have original circumstances and own goals). It has certainly to do with the (now defunct) five years gap, which would have made Arya 16 and any story device about some teacher met years ago for a few weeks popping up to save the day even lamer. A lot of it is about the ludicrousness of starting from a (entirely imaginary) future event to demonstrate its own premise. Probably also about the idea that it's cool to reintroduce people who had a perfect exit when ASOIAF is already getting too bloated with characters, at the time where the author will have to narrow the scope and mesh the story threads together. Most certainly and definitely the fact that any such "foil" inherently diminishes Arya's independence, resourcefulness and, globally, worth, when it's entirely unecessary for her, the plot, or the narrative.

Either way, it sucks.

You're a difficult person to please - you ask much. True, Arya would be even more impressive if she cast off all her mentors; but who has done that? Robb, at 16, was a king, but he still had his mother and the Blackfish to advise him - and even at that he made disastrous juvenile mistakes. Jon has had Ned, the Old Bear, and Aemon; only at 17 is he probably entirely on his own. Why are you so very stingy about the mentoring you'd be happy with for this 11-12 yo girl? She's already navigated a hostile Westeros, alternately entirely on her own or with a varying captor "mentor" (BWB, Sandor), and she's managing an extremely difficult job of satisfying the KOM that she's assassin material; she's learned to kill when and as necessary, and is capable of both killing people and of being generous and helpful, of adapting to a strange culture, strange rules, and a nonentity persona. You seem to really want her to be superhuman - to be unsatisfied with the merely extraordinary character she's already demonstrated. Isn't great good enough? Does she have to be great

and

entirely free of mentoring too? I think your demands for Arya are too much. George writes "realism"; Arya should be one in a million, not one in a billion - great, but still human - not perfect.

Besides, maybe Syrio will serve in a minor capacity. Maybe he'll serve to demonstrate Arya stepping out from under the shadow of her mentor - outgrowing him. Maybe on the way to being outgrown he'll make some of the transitions easier. Or maybe Martin won't reintroduce Syrio, even if he originally planned it as a possibility.

It seems like what "sucks" for you is just about everything that isn't groundbreaking literature, or young female characters that exceed the accomplishments and independence of even the best and most capable of older male characters. I don't think ASOIAF is groundbreaking literature or a vehicle for a super-femi-wunderkind. It's just great fantasy with a story to tell, not a 21st century Ulysses. Like Arya, there's so much that Martin does better than anybody - it's regrettable (for me, at least) that doesn't seem to be enough for you.

[Rakka]

For decency's sake, would you stop saying someone who dies in a battle they chose to enter to "committed suicide". It's fucking insulting to anyone who's ever lost friends or family who died risking their lives to save other people. If you can't understand the difference between making intentional attempt to die and being willing to risk your life for something, fine. It's your personal problem. But stop flaunting it.

And now Trant apparently has the ability to run away while being tripped and down, since he's so clumsy and slow but a devil at getting up and running away. Seriously, listen to yourself.

[Horza]

AAF has convinced me: Syrio is alive on the top of Mount Pelion-upon-Ossa.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

For decency's sake, would you stop saying someone who dies in a battle they chose to enter to "committed suicide". It's fucking insulting to anyone who's ever lost friends or family who died risking their lives to save other people. If you can't understand the difference between making intentional attempt to die and being willing to risk your life for something, fine. It's your personal problem. But stop flaunting it.

And now Trant apparently has the ability to run away while being tripped and down, since he's so clumsy and slow but a devil at getting up and running away. Seriously, listen to yourself.

+1. Short, to the point, and perfectly sensible. I think we can be confident that the reply to this will remarkably long, to generate sufficient fog to try to obfuscate the issue.