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Dharma

Syrio Forel

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[quote name='snake' post='1389489' date='Jun 9 2008, 07.13']GRRM said he's dead so that's the end of that.[/quote]He did? Where? I want to see it (and cackle madly with glee)

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[quote name='snake' post='1389489' date='Jun 9 2008, 07.13']GRRM said he's dead so that's the end of that.

Move on people![/quote]

GRRM said that? when, where?

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[quote name='snake' post='1389489' date='Jun 9 2008, 06.13']GRRM said he's dead so that's the end of that.

Move on people![/quote]

No, no he didnt.

-Poobs

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[quote name='snake' post='1389489' date='Jun 9 2008, 07.13']GRRM said he's dead so that's the end of that.

Move on people![/quote]

Yeah but that's only so that the revelation that Syrio is the Prince that was Promised is all the more stunning and awesome.

Seriously though, he never said that :)

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[quote name='Poobah' post='1388742' date='Jun 8 2008, 12.05']There is a line I recall that says something along the lines of "her dancing master got in the way" (paraphrase) or some such, but no other mention. I do find it hard to believe that someone as crap as Meryn managed to take out Syrio though. But on the other hand, we've heard nothing of Syrio for 4 books now so unless he turns up in Braavos in ADWD I don't think he'll be back, alive or dead.

-Poobs[/quote]

Cersei was asking Meryn if he had found Arya, and Meryn tells her he had her except her dancing master "interfered" and she escaped. I'm doing a re-read and came across that a week or two ago and took note that Meryn never said he killed her dancing master or some such... just that he "interfered" and said no more (seeming to me like, he didn't wanna say he got his arse kicked by a dancing master)... but either way I'm with you Poobs that I don't think he'll be back, alive or dead.

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Let me guess, you think Darion is alive and well too?
[b]just because we don't see someone die, doesn't mean they are not dead.
[/b]

Syrio is dead.
he is not Jaquen Hagar, there is no mission that would warrent sending Jaquen to go train a young girl how to fight for days and days.
Also note, Ned sought him out, it's not like Syrio came to Ned and said "hey, I hear you have a daughter that wants to learn how to fight."

Syrio was killed to prepare us for what was upcoming for Ned, and as another example of how Arya has suffered.



By claiming that Syrio is still alive you call into question two of the greatest scenes in the entire series:
[b]"see with your eyes" was possibly the best line to describe a death ever.[/b]
and if you say he's alive you could just as easily say Arya didn't kill Darion because we didn't see it - "Arya Stark killed him" another great death quote.

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There is a considerable difference between the two. For one we know Arya says she killed him, so not much doubt there. We don't see Syrio's death, nor is it [i]ever[/i] mentioned, by anyone. As [b]dragonfire613 [/b]so accurately states, when talking about the incident to Cersei, Meryn Trant specifically says that Syrio "interfered", not that he killed him. And as I wrote in the opening post, the 'seeing with your eyes' is there to tell us he is alive, imo. I also specifically stated, twice, that I don't think he is Jaquen, so I don't know why you brought that up. :)

ETA - In my opinion the only logical arguments against, in this thread, is Chainer's point about the swords, and Littlefinger6000's argument that he wouldn't have told Arya to run if he thought he would win. I simply disagree with the latter because I believe that Syrio would have felt that Arya could have made it through the castle, and he didn't want to take the chance of leaving her in a room with Trant if there was even the minutest chance he would lose.

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[quote name='Zoliv' post='1388702' date='Jun 8 2008, 09.04']Face it. Syrio is dead. Or there would have been some lines about Ser Meryn being blamed.[/quote]

No one is as confident in his conviction, or ignorant of the text, as a commoner. :D

Artanaro

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Time to point out everything wrong with this post.

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 09.53']Let me guess, you think Darion is alive and well too?[/quote]
Calling into question the intelligence of those who disagree with you is an example of poor debate skills.

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 09.53'][b]just because we don't see someone die, doesn't mean they are not dead.
[/b][/quote]
This is true, but the reverse is also true. Just because we don't see him alive, doesn't me he's not. This is the problem with using a negative proof, such as the Syrio is Dead proponents are using in this thread.


[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 09.53']Syrio is dead.[/quote]
You say that like it means something. Where is your proof? I want facts, not personal conjecture.



[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 09.53']he is not Jaquen Hagar, there is no mission that would warrent sending Jaquen to go train a young girl how to fight for days and days.
Also note, Ned sought him out, it's not like Syrio came to Ned and said "hey, I hear you have a daughter that wants to learn how to fight."[/quote]
First, we know so little of the Faceless Men that we don't know a) how they recruit B) what are their motives c) what can they choose to do within and outside the scope of their missions. I do not purport to have these answers. You do, and you are wrong. Let me explain the Jaqen arguement, so you will better understand the opposition.

Questions that Syrio Lives answers
1. Why was a faceless man imprisoned in the dungeon below the Red Keep? Explanation: There is plenty of evidence that Varys was the gaoler. That means he has some relationship to the Faceless Men (unless Varys, a master of disguise, was fooled by Jaqen, but then you have to ask yourself, why/how was he caught in the first place).
2. How did Ned find the first Sword of Braavos for his daughter? Who recommended him? No one else has said anything about him in the entire series.
3. Why does Jaqen call himself, "Arya's only friend"? First, at the time it was said, the statement wasn't true. When Syrio was Arya's teacher, it was true.

There are more, but I don't want to overload this post.


[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 09.53']Syrio was killed to prepare us for what was upcoming for Ned, and as another example of how Arya has suffered.[/quote]
More baseless conjecture. You are putting meaning into scenes without any factual basis. If Martin said that, it would be important. You saying it, does not give it any value. It may be true, but it's merely your opinion.



[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 09.53']By claiming that Syrio is still alive you call into question two of the greatest scenes in the entire series:[/quote]
This is the truth of the matter for Syrio is Dead advocates. It damages their conception of the book. I respect their opinion, but there is nothing logical about that position. I personally believe Syrio lives, because it explains Jacqen H'gar's behavior better than any alternative. The facts are open enough to be interpretation, whichever way you want, but to say he is in fact dead, is wrong. There is simply not enough evidence to say one way or the other.

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 09.53'][b]"see with your eyes" was possibly the best line to describe a death ever.[/b]
and if you say he's alive [b]you could just as easily say Arya didn't kill Darion because we didn't see it [/b][/quote]
We have many more facts that Darion is dead.
1.) Arya has his boots
2.) Arya says she killed someone.
This isn't much evidence either, but it is much more than we have in Syrio. There is nowhere that Syrio is called dead, and if he was working with Varys, even that evidence could be called into question (but there is none, so there's no need).


To compare Syrio's death with Darion's, is not accurate. People are extrapolating on their own prejudices. If only people would consider things logically. Sometimes, the truth is that some answers are just not known.

Artanaro

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Ah, I see we have a high school debater on our hands here.
a master debater it seems.

to use your own logic:

[quote name='Artanaro' post='1390569' date='Jun 9 2008, 14.12']Calling into question the intelligence of those who disagree with you is an example of poor debate skills.[/quote]

I call into question the intelligence of anyone who signs his/her posts on a message board that clearly states your name.
as it happens, I wasn't questioning the previous poster's intelligence, I was actually showing that his logic is the same logic used by the same people that believe Darion is alive.

[quote name='Artanaro' post='1390569' date='Jun 9 2008, 14.12']This is true, but the reverse is also true. Just because we don't see him alive, doesn't me he's not. This is the problem with using a negative proof, such as the Syrio is Dead proponents are using in this thread.[/quote]
In this situation the original post uses the logic that what we see is a clear example of how syrio is alive. It is pointed out that since no one has said he's dead, he could very well be alive.
I was stating that just because he could very well be alive, doesn't mean that he is, therefore it was a counterargument to the original argument. You countering that.... just becomes confusing.

[quote name='Artanaro' post='1390569' date='Jun 9 2008, 14.12']First, we know so little of the Faceless Men that we don't know a) how they recruit B) what are their motives c) what can they choose to do within and outside the scope of their missions. I do not purport to have these answers. You do, and you are wrong. Let me explain the Jaqen arguement, so you will better understand the opposition.

Questions that Syrio Lives answers
1. Why was a faceless man imprisoned in the dungeon below the Red Keep? Explanation: There is plenty of evidence that Varys was the gaoler. That means he has some relationship to the Faceless Men (unless Varys, a master of disguise, was fooled by Jaqen, but then you have to ask yourself, why/how was he caught in the first place).
2. How did Ned find the first Sword of Braavos for his daughter? Who recommended him? No one else has said anything about him in the entire series.
3. Why does Jaqen call himself, "Arya's only friend"? First, at the time it was said, the statement wasn't true. When Syrio was Arya's teacher, it was true.[/quote]

this is where you went horribly wrong.
You're stating that Syrio must be living, because it would answer a few questions.
1. Using the argument that a faceless man in the dungeon as proof that Syrio is in fact Jaqen counteracts your previous arguments that you don't know enough about the Faceless Men, and have no actual proof, so therefore you are claiming to have answers which you clearly cannot have. There is no evidence that Varys was the gaoler. In fact, there is abundant evidence that Varys has never held the possition of gaoler. Now did he pay the gaoler? maybe, but that isn't in question.
2. Ned is the Hand of the King. Syrio came with recommendations and a reputation as is stated in one of his chapters. How does Syrio's life answer this question that is stumping millions of readers???
3. Never have we seen Syrio mention to Arya that she has no friends, nor is he around her enough to know if she has friends or not. Therefore, like #2 Syrio's life does not answer anything there.

[quote name='Artanaro' post='1390569' date='Jun 9 2008, 14.12']I personally believe Syrio lives, because it explains Jacqen H'gar's behavior better than any alternative. The facts are open enough to be interpretation, whichever way you want, but to say he is in fact dead, is wrong. There is simply not enough evidence to say one way or the other.
Artanaro[/quote]
and here we see how you sign your name after every post, which is odd at the least.
and your personal belief - Syrio must be alive because it explains Jaqen Hagar's existence in the dungeons!!!!
Although, you did say that we don't know much about the Faceless Men, so someone could point out that maybe they put him there......

No, you're probably right your way works out best - [b]The Faceless Men put JH in the castle as Syrio Forel with a mission to train a 7 year old girl (daugher of the Hand) because this is obviously how they recruit. They then sent the Lannisters after her. JH lost a fight to Ser Trant (who decided to let him live after he had just killed 5 of his men). The Faceless Men then sent a member of the Nights Watch to rescue Arya so that JH could meet up with her along the road north. They planed to have her save his life from a fiery death, which gave her a reason to kill 3 people of her own choosing, (Which must have been a Faceless training method), and knew that she would take it upon herself to go to Braavos and seek them out!!!
[/b]
Dang! those Faceless Men are clever!
..... it really seems obvious when you point all of that out. Count me in! Syrio is not only alive and well, he is now masquerading as PATE, on a mission to Recruit Sam the Slayer!!!

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[quote name='prod' post='1390280' date='Jun 9 2008, 12.15']ETA - In my opinion the only logical arguments against, in this thread, is Chainer's point about the swords, and Littlefinger6000's argument that he wouldn't have told Arya to run if he thought he would win. I simply disagree with the latter because I believe that Syrio would have felt that Arya could have made it through the castle, and he didn't want to take the chance of leaving her in a room with Trant if there was even the minutest chance he would lose.[/quote]


Logical arguments why Syrio is Dead:
1. Syrio did not wear armor, was faced up against a Whitecloak, and had no weapon when we last saw him.
2. Syrio was not used to fighting with the swords that were littered about.
3. Syrio sent Arya away from the room.
4. Arya was very certain that Syrio is dead, and she was the only one besides Trant and Syrio to witness the event.
5. 2 men fought, only 1 man has been seen since, and shows no signs of losing a deadly fight.
6. There is little reason for Trant to leave Syrio alive and lock him up.
7. It was a kick ass death scene. - maybe this one isn't all that logical, but still.

Logical arguments why Syrio lives:
1. He kicked the asses of 5 men with a wooden sword.
2. Swords were littered about.
3. He told the Whitecloak he was slow.
4. No one has mentioned the death of Syrio.

Fun Counterarguments:
1. No one has mentioned the death of the 5 men Syrio killed.
2. Girls tend to be stupid when it comes to swordfighting.
3. A Faceless man was found in the Dungeons.
4. Whitecloaks are Honorable and would prefer to let a good combatant live, and take the Black.
5. It would be more kick ass if later on in the Series we find out that Syrio, JH, Pate, and God knows who else, are all the Same Person!
6. Tyrion and Syrio have never been seen together.
7. Some guy thinks GRRM has said Syrio is Dead.
and on, and on, and on.

Bottom line: We may never know if Syrio lives.

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What about a time line arguement?
I am not taking either side in this argument, but....when did Yoren get permission to raid the dungeons looking for men to join the NW, and how long after that did Syrio die/become JH?

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1390858' date='Jun 9 2008, 23.11']Logical arguments why Syrio is Dead:
1. Syrio did not wear armor, was faced up against a Whitecloak, and had no weapon when we last saw him.
2. Syrio was not used to fighting with the swords that were littered about.
3. Syrio sent Arya away from the room.
4. Arya was very certain that Syrio is dead, and she was the only one besides Trant and Syrio to witness the event.
5. 2 men fought, only 1 man has been seen since, and shows no signs of losing a deadly fight.
6. There is little reason for Trant to leave Syrio alive and lock him up.
7. It was a kick ass death scene. - maybe this one isn't all that logical, but still.

Logical arguments why Syrio lives:
1. He kicked the asses of 5 men with a wooden sword.
2. Swords were littered about.
3. He told the Whitecloak he was slow.
4. No one has mentioned the death of Syrio.

Fun Counterarguments:
1. No one has mentioned the death of the 5 men Syrio killed.
2. Girls tend to be stupid when it comes to swordfighting.
3. A Faceless man was found in the Dungeons.
4. Whitecloaks are Honorable and would prefer to let a good combatant live, and take the Black.
5. It would be more kick ass if later on in the Series we find out that Syrio, JH, Pate, and God knows who else, are all the Same Person!
6. Tyrion and Syrio have never been seen together.
7. Some guy thinks GRRM has said Syrio is Dead.
and on, and on, and on.

Bottom line: We may never know if Syrio lives.[/quote]

Okay.

1 - I stated in my opening post why I believe that Syrio would have defeated Trant anyway.

2 - I already conceeded this point

3 - I can see the logic of this, as I have stated, but also, as I have stated, I disagree with the reasoning behind this point.

4 - This is irrelevant. We see what Arya sees, so she knows no more than us. Thus we should draw are own conclusions from the text, not rely on what she believes happend.

5 - True, but I left explained why I do not believe this proves that Syrio is dead in my opening post.

6 - True, but I don't believe that Trant was ever in a position to have that choice, so this is also irrelevant (to my argument, at least).

7 - True, it isn't logical.

Now I probably should have made it clear that the :bang: wasn't meant as a protest against the counter arguments presented to my post, but to the manner of your posts.

What has signing the name at the end of ones posts got to do with anything?

I sincerely disagree that there is any likeness between my arguments and the arguments of those that believe Darion is alive. I stated why above.

Artanaro never said that Syrio must be alive, nor did he say that Syrio must be Jaquen, as you seem to believe. He explicitly ended his last post by saying - "Sometimes, the truth is that some answers are just not known".

Your arguments are flawed and your manner is rude. Grow up.

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']I call into question the intelligence of anyone who signs his/her posts on a message board that clearly states your name.[/quote]
And the assertion has as much value as your "proof" that Syrio is dead. :D

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']I wasn't questioning the previous poster's intelligence, I was actually showing that his logic is the [b]same logic used by the same people that believe Darion is alive. [/b][/quote]
You didn't show that. You compared an argument containing pertinent circumstantial evidence (Arya's words and the boots) to a situation with no evidence for any judgement. That is weak.

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']In this situation the original post uses the logic that what we see is a clear example of how syrio is alive. It is pointed out that since no one has said he's dead, he could very well be alive.
[b]I was stating that just because he could very well be alive, doesn't mean that he is, therefore it was a counterargument to the original argument. [/b][/quote]
You are changing your words. I agree with your text in bold, but here's what I was responding to, which you said in post #26. Don't move the fences.

[quote]Syrio is dead.
he is not Jaquen Hagar, there is no mission that would warrent sending Jaquen to go train a young girl how to fight for days and days.[/quote]
You said Syrio was dead. You didn't say, "he could be very well alive." Going to the opposite extreme is doing the same thing you found wrong in the initial post. He was merely stating his opinion. You want your position treated like fact.



[quote post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']You're stating that Syrio [b]must be living [/b], because it would answer a few questions.[/quote]
First, don't put words in my mouth. I said Jaqen as Syrio explains things better than Jaqen as a random stranger. It's my opinion, I can tell you disagree.

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']1. Using the argument that a faceless man in the dungeon as proof that Syrio is in fact Jaqen counteracts your previous arguments that you don't know enough about the Faceless Men, and have no actual proof, so therefore you are claiming to have answers which you clearly cannot have. [b]There is no evidence that Varys was the gaoler. [/b][/quote]
Ahh, and so the truth comes out. You don't know the facts :D. Debating is much more difficult when both sides are not on equal footing. Consider the following facts that are worthy of evaluation.

1. Rugen the Gaoler disappears after Tywin is murdered.
2. Rugen spent very little time in the dungeons.
3. From the description Jamie receives from the guards, he comes to the conclusion it was Varys.
4. What Varys wear when he visits Ned in AGOT matches the Gaoler's description.

Now, show me the evidence that contradicts the assertion that Varys is the Gaoler.

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']2. Ned is the Hand of the King. Syrio came with recommendations and a reputation as is stated in one of his chapters. How does Syrio's life answer this question that is stumping millions of readers???[/quote]
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but let me reiterate what the discussion about Syrio's recommendation means. He came highly recommended, but by who? No person in all of King's Landing has inquired about his death. He is the first Sword of Braavos. The only know member of the High Council with contacts in the free cities is Varys. This circumstantial evidence, plus the fact that Varys is the Gaoler, points to a definite relationship between Jaqen and the Gaoler, especially since the person who delivered the prisoners to Yoren, matches the same description. Since Varys becomes the best candidate for recommending Syrio, we now have a connection between Syrio and Jaqen.


[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']3. Never have we seen Syrio mention to Arya that she has no friends, nor is he around her enough to know if she has friends or not.[/quote]
You are not understanding the point. Jaqen says Arya has only him as her friend. This is a lie that served no purpose. She is friends with Hot Pie and Gendry, but we know about Arya's situation in King's Landing. There, she did not have any friends. If you disagree, name them. She learned under Syrio, and that's about all she did. Whether Syrio said it or not, has nothing to do with it. The fact is, there is reason to believe Syrio knew Arya's plight in the city, but why does Jaqen lie. It makes no sense. It does make sense if Jaqen was Syrio, because he would know everything Syrio would know.

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']and here we see how you sign your name after every post, which is odd at the least.[/quote]
If my signature bothers you that much, trying focusing on my posts They're more important. ;)

[quote name='DocBean' post='1390799' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.42']No, you're probably right your way works out best - ...[/quote]
The strawman, the debate of champions. :)

Artanaro *just for kicks*

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It's funny, I have always believed that Syrio was alive (obviously) but I never believed that he was Jaquen. I always viewed that as wishful thinking from fanbois who wanted to believe these two cool characters were really one ultimate super badass, pretty much like many here see my arguments as those of a fanboi who simply can't believe the awesome waterdancer is dead. I never saw any points which really made this view make sense. But Artanaro, you do make some compelling arguments. Though the evidence is largely circumstantial, I certainly wouldn't feel wronged any longer by GRRM if Syrio does turn out to be Jaquen. Im not sure that that's what I believe, but I now certainly view it is a possibility. Cool :)

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[quote name='prod' post='1390933' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.53']But Artanaro, you do make some compelling arguments. Though the evidence is largely circumstantial, I certainly wouldn't feel wronged any longer by GRRM if Syrio does turn out to be Jaquen.[/quote]
There is actually a lot more evidence than what I've posted that Jaqen is Syrio. I just don't have the books on hand, so I'm going by memory. Also, there are so many wrong points coming from the Syrio is Dead crowd, so I'd rather focus on those right now. I really don't care if Syrio is Jaqen or not. I just want something that meets all the facts, whether it be for R+L=J, Syrio Lives, or who sent Ser Mandon Moore after Tyrion.

Artanaro

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Fair enough :)

If you remember more arguments as for Syrio being Jaquen, and don't mind rehashing them here, then please do.

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[quote name='prod' post='1390957' date='Jun 9 2008, 16.08']If you remember more arguments as for Syrio being Jaquen, and don't mind rehashing them here, then please do.[/quote]
Here is another one. Jaqen doesn't know that Arya has other friends, but he in fact recognizes her as Arya Stark. People shrug this comment off, because it's a fantasy novel, and have no problem treating faceless men as omniscient. I have a problem with that. This brings up the following questions.

1. Where did Jaqen see Arya previously? She did not go to the Hand's tourney. She was rarely seen outside of the Red Keep or far from Syrio or her father's household.

2. Where was Jaqen before he was in the dungeon and how did Jaqen get into the black cells?

A problem with answering this, is you must also explain why Rorge and Biter fear him? Is the faceless men the same Jaqen who got arrested and sent down there? From what we have seen of Jaqen, he's cold, calculating, and is even nice. This doesn't appear to be the psycho that would scare Rorge. If Jaqen was not Syrio, you need an explanation why Rorge fears him and how he got down her. If faceless men are as competent as they appear, there is no logical reason he would be caught and spending time in a cell. Does he enter on the small hope that he might luck out and get sent to the wall?

Syrio = Jaqen is a solution to both of these problems.

Really, the problem with Syrio Lives is answering what happens to him and why is there no suspicion called upon Arya's dancing master disappearing. That is the problem with Syrio surviving the dual with Meryn. It doesn't matter if Syrio runs away or Syrio knocks out all the Lannister men. If Syrio is not a faceless man, he pretty much has to cut his way out of the Red Keep, but you have to explain why Cersei doesn't think twice about him. Syrio on the run doesn't fit the facts. If he is a faceless man, the situation becomes much simpler, especially if he works with Varys. In that case, he could have gotten captured and/or faked his death.

Artanaro

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