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Dharma

Syrio Forel

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And what if Syrio had become Biter ?


No, just kiddin', stop writing a book guys ! :read:

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[quote name='Artanaro' post='1390986' date='Jun 9 2008, 18.25']1. Where did Jaqen see Arya previously? She did not go to the Hand's tourney. She was rarely seen outside of the Red Keep or far from Syrio or her father's household.


Artanaro[/quote]
He does not need to have seen her to figure out who she is. She is a girl being brought North w/ the Nights Watch out of the Stark slaughter that just happened at KL. That in itself is a BIG clue as to who she is.

Also, when Jaqen is chained to the wagon she and Yoren have a conversation about her father where I believe she says her father's head was cut off. Jaqen would certainly suspect that was Ned.
And she yells "Winterfell" during the big fight scene.

Those facts alone are enough for a FM (being attuned to political intrigue and really smart and good observers must be the very least of their nifty powers) to deduce that she is the daughter of the fallen Hand of the King.

There are other things as well b/c this issue has come up before (sad but true! I need a life) but I cant it all remember right now.

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[quote name='prod' post='1390885' date='Jun 9 2008, 16.26']Okay.
Your arguments are flawed and your manner is rude. Grow up.[/quote]

At what point was I rude to you?
What arguments of mine are flawed????

I'm a little confused here. Earlier you said there are only 2 logical counterarguments to your main post. I just offered you 6 fairly logical arguments.

Then I went on to list some arguments (including your own) as to why he's alive.
then I offered some quirky counterarguments that we're likely to see from both sides of the fence.

Bottom line - you started a Topic in which you claimed an illogical theory, now you're attacking me for listing your arguments against more logical arguments.
I did so in a lighthearted way. Who's rude here?

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[quote name='miriel' post='1391027' date='Jun 9 2008, 17.52']He does not need to have seen her to figure out who she is. She is a girl being brought North w/ the Nights Watch out of the Stark slaughter that just happened at KL. That in itself is a BIG clue as to who she is.
...[/quote]

This works inductively, "I wonder if that is Arya of Stark, let's see if the facts support it." It does not work deductively, "I see a girl, who is she?" Let me list the problems with your argument.

1. Why would a noble (or any Stark supporter) risk his daughter through a war zone with only one night's watchmen and a bunch of former thieves?
2. Jaqen knows the name of all the nobility in the Red Keep? That is necessary for knowing the names of Eddard's daughters.
3. Of all the Northmen executed (Eddard wasn't the only one to lose his head), he guessed the exact one out of 50 or so people. Other northmen have daughters to. (Arya might not be the only one to shout Winterfell. Someone in the Tyrell army would have no problem shouting, "Highgarden".)

This argument about "knowing Arya" when taken with the other arguments provides support. To assume Jaqen is a master at "inductive reasoning", creates more problems then they're worth. I agree though, nothing can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[quote name='miriel' post='1391027' date='Jun 9 2008, 17.52']There are other things as well b/c this issue has come up before (sad but true! I need a life) but I cant it all remember right now.[/quote]
I know them to :). I also know how they don't work.

Artanaro

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1391046' date='Jun 9 2008, 18.03']what is the Strawman?[/quote]
In order to assist you with improving your debate skills, we need some definitions. Here is a strawman as defined on Wikipedia.

[i]A straw man argument is an informal fallacy [b]based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[/b][1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is [b]to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute[/b], then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). [/i]

The following is the strawman you used.
[quote name='DocBean' post='1391046' date='Jun 9 2008, 18.03']No, you're probably right your way works out best - The Faceless Men put JH [b]in the castle as Syrio Forel with a mission to train a 7 year old girl[/b] (daugher of the Hand) because [b]this is obviously how they recruit.[/b] They then sent the Lannisters after her. JH [b]lost a fight to Ser Trant[/b] (who [b]decided to let him live after he had just killed 5 of his men[/b]). The Faceless Men then [b]sent a member of the Nights Watch to rescue Arya[/b] so that JH could meet up with her along the road north. They [b]planed to have her save his life from a fiery death[/b], which gave her a reason to kill 3 people of her own choosing, (Which must have been a Faceless training method), and knew that she would take it upon herself to go to Braavos and seek them out!!![/quote]
Either you used a strawman, or you have the worst reading comprehension on this board, DocBean. I'd like to think you were using a strawman, because then there is still hope for your debate technique. :D Let me list all the misrepresentations of my argument.

1. Syrio had a mission to train a 7 year old girl. I have never said that. Syrio could need cover for walking around the Red Keep, and being Arya's trainer provides that cover.

2. Syrio loses a fight with Ser Trant. You are still focused on this point, even though you don't have an ounce of proof. It is possible Trant decided to capture him as a way to interrogate him about where Arya might go. It's possible Syrio ran away to guards loyal to Varys and surrendered himself. Perhaps Syrio won. You are mixing your own beliefs and baseless assumptions with what the reader knows.

3. Faceless Men sent a member of the Night's Watch to Arya. That does bring up another issue. How does Yoren happen upon Arya before anyone else does? Mighty suspicious coincidence. But no, I'm not saying Jaqen H'gar is responsible for that.

4. They planned to have her save his life from a fiery death. You keep inserting arguments that have nothing to do with Syrio=Jaqen. The fire is an occurence of the story. It has no relevance to the theory, one way or another.


See, this is a strawman, and quite a bad one at that. You included irrelevant details, and twist them so they do not match my argument at all. That is, in fact, a strawman. I hope I have been of some service correcting your mistake. Live and learn. Cheerio.

Artanaro ;)

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1391040' date='Jun 10 2008, 01.00']At what point was I rude to you?
What arguments of mine are flawed????

I'm a little confused here. Earlier you said there are only 2 logical counterarguments to your main post. I just offered you 6 fairly logical arguments.

Then I went on to list some arguments (including your own) as to why he's alive.
then I offered some quirky counterarguments that we're likely to see from both sides of the fence.

Bottom line - you started a Topic in which you claimed an illogical theory, now you're attacking me for listing your arguments against more logical arguments.
I did so in a lighthearted way. Who's rude here?[/quote]

You weren't rude to me, and I never said so. Saying this -

[i]"I call into question the intelligence of anyone who signs his/her posts on a message board that clearly states your name."[/i]

Is rude though.

These arguments of yours are flawed -

[i]"I wasn't questioning the previous poster's intelligence, I was actually showing that his logic is the same logic used by the same people that believe Darion is alive."

"I was stating that just because he could very well be alive, doesn't mean that he is, therefore it was a counterargument to the original argument."

"Syrio is dead."

"There is no evidence that Varys was the gaoler."

"Never have we seen Syrio mention to Arya that she has no friends, nor is he around her enough to know if she has friends or not."[/i]

And Artanaro explains why.

I did indeed say that there were only two counter arguments in the thread which I considered valid. That was before your list. Sadly I do not have the ability to predict future posts. I also went on to explain why I do not agree with any of those arguments in your list.

I am not attacking you. If you consider anything I have posted as an attack then you must be very new to the internet.

I didn't see the lightheartedness in your posts, but if they were meant in such a manner then I apologize :)

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[quote name='Artanaro' post='1391053' date='Jun 10 2008, 01.06']1. Why would a noble (or any Stark supporter) risk his daughter through a war zone with only one night's watchmen and a bunch of former thieves?[/quote]

To be fair, the answer to this question is - because the Starks in Kings Landing have just been utterly decimated.

I do really like your previous arguments for the Jaquen = Syrio theory though.

A logical explanation for Syrio training Arya, if we assume that he is Jaquen, would be, as you said, to have some cover, or simply something to do, whilst waiting for a mission. In my opinion, if Syrio is Jaquen, he never intended to see her again after the fight with Trant (unless he does indeed somehow inform Yoren of her presence, through one of Vary's agents perhaps. Not sure about that though), but when she happens to end up on his route to the Iron Islands (if we assume, which seems quite possible, that Jaquen is the one who kills Balon Greyjoy), and particularly after she saves his life, he takes a further interest in her. Through their journey in the Riverlands he sees that she might have Faceless Man potential, and very few options to make it back to anywhere safe. He then decides to give her the coin. In this way it was never the Faceless Mens intent to specifically find and train Arya, which does indeed seem highly improbable, but it provides a plausable (imo) explanation for everything that happens to both her and him, if Syrio is indeed Jaquen. I am beginning to like the theory more and more :)

ETA - I use the word 'indeed' too much :P

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[quote name='prod' post='1391090' date='Jun 9 2008, 17.34']You weren't rude to me, and I never said so. Saying this -

[i]"I call into question the intelligence of anyone who signs his/her posts on a message board that clearly states your name."[/i]

Is rude though.[/quote]

Don't worry, prod. I like people being honest :). You should have watched me in the older R+L=J debates. I can't think of a single R+L=J poster, who didn't hate my guts at some point. (Well, maybe 1 or 2). I must come off quite rude saying how everyone "is wrong." They are, but I probably should be more subtle. Subtly is overrated.

Artanaro

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[quote name='Artanaro' post='1391108' date='Jun 10 2008, 01.49']Don't worry, prod. I like people being honest :) . You should have watched me in the older R+L=J debates. I can't think of a single R+L=J poster, who didn't hate my guts at some point. (Well, maybe 1 or 2). I must come off quite rude saying how everyone "is wrong." They are, but I probably should be more subtle. Subtly is overrated.

Artanaro[/quote]

I wasn't worried, nor was I standing up for you. I was simply stating what I felt to be true :) And honesty is, indeed, a very good thing. Doesn't mean one can't be polite though :P

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[quote name='snake' post='1389489' date='Jun 9 2008, 01.13']GRRM said he's dead so that's the end of that.

Move on people![/quote]

Yeah, we know how well people stay dead in this series. I know where Syrio is, his name is Pate and he's living above Sam in the citadel.

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[quote name='Lord Stormborn' post='1391135' date='Jun 9 2008, 18.13']Yeah, we know how well people stay dead in this series. I know where Syrio is, his name is Pate and he's living above Sam in the citadel.[/quote]

Here is example from one of the conventions in So Spake Martin, about what he has said on the issue.

[i]A couple other people asked some good questions, and a couple that I thought were bad. Someone specifically asked about who Jon Snow's parents were, and [b]someone asked about Syrio and Jaqen H'gar![/b] He basically laughed and said "I'm not gonna tell you!".[/i]

Artanaro

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1390088' date='Jun 9 2008, 11.53']Let me guess, you think Darion is alive and well too?
[b]just because we don't see someone die, doesn't mean they are not dead.
[/b][/quote]
Do you think Jon Connington , Aegon, Brienne, Davos are dead? Do you think Arya is blind completely? Someone believes they are, someone does not.

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[quote name='Artanaro' post='1391156' date='Jun 9 2008, 19.26']Here is example from one of the conventions in So Spake Martin, about what he has said on the issue.

[i]A couple other people asked some good questions, and a couple that I thought were bad. Someone specifically asked about who Jon Snow's parents were, and [b]someone asked about Syrio and Jaqen H'gar![/b] He basically laughed and said "I'm not gonna tell you!".[/i]

Artanaro[/quote]

At another signing in NY someone asked him about Syrio and he said to draw your own conclusions but consider that Syrio had half a wooden sword, no armour and was facing an armoured and armed Meryn Trant. The poster stated that it seemed to mean that Syrio was dead.

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[quote name='snake' post='1391262' date='Jun 9 2008, 21.39']At another signing in NY someone asked him about Syrio and he said to draw your own conclusions but consider that Syrio had half a wooden sword, no armour and was facing an armoured and armed Meryn Trant. The poster stated that it seemed to mean that Syrio was dead.[/quote]
Someone asked him something about Sansa. He told that she is dead. :rolleyes:
Actually, i found his words at Center Stage:
Will Sandor and Sansa meet again in the future?

[b]Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.[/b] Martin's words' can be interpreted in different ways.

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[quote name='snake' post='1391262' date='Jun 9 2008, 19.39']At another signing in NY someone asked him about Syrio and he said to draw your own conclusions but consider that Syrio had half a wooden sword, no armour and was facing an armoured and armed Meryn Trant. [b]The poster stated that it seemed to mean that Syrio was dead.[/b][/quote]
I don't care what the poster thinks. Martin is smarter than his readers :). You said Martin agreed, "Syrio is dead", and he did not. Anything outside of a direct comment on that is left to personal bias. Trying to interpret Martin's tone is no different from using astrology to determine who is the killer in a mystery novel. It's possible to reach the correct answer by luck, but logical deduction doesn't need luck.

Artanaro

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[quote name='snake' post='1391262' date='Jun 10 2008, 03.39']At another signing in NY someone asked him about Syrio and he said to draw your own conclusions but consider that Syrio had half a wooden sword, no armour and was facing an armoured and armed Meryn Trant. The poster stated that it seemed to mean that Syrio was dead.[/quote]


[quote name='Roza Ahai' post='1391267' date='Jun 10 2008, 03.45']Someone asked him something about Sansa. He told that she is dead. :rolleyes:
Actually, i found his words at Center Stage:
Will Sandor and Sansa meet again in the future?

[b]Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.[/b] Martin's words' can be interpreted in different ways.[/quote]

The first comment could also be similiar to the second one, if Syrio is Jaquen. Syrio is dead, but Jaquen (or Pate) lives on, just like the Hound is dead but Sandor lives on. But the comments are all too open to be sure of anything. Considering he specifically told us to draw our own conclusions the best thing would seem to be to do that :)

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[quote name='prod' post='1390933' date='Jun 9 2008, 16.53']It's funny, I have always believed that Syrio was alive (obviously) but I never believed that he was Jaquen. I always viewed that as wishful thinking from fanbois who wanted to believe these two cool characters were really one ultimate super badass, pretty much like many here see my arguments as those of a fanboi who simply can't believe the awesome waterdancer is dead. I never saw any points which really made this view make sense. But Artanaro, you do make some compelling arguments. Though the evidence is largely circumstantial, I certainly wouldn't feel wronged any longer by GRRM if Syrio does turn out to be Jaquen. Im not sure that that's what I believe, but I now certainly view it is a possibility. Cool :)[/quote]

:agree: I was going to say the same thing but he beet me to it (and probably said it better than i would have)




...note to self, never get into a debate with Artanaro...

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Realize I'm a couple years late to this topic, but I just found the forum yesterday.

I always assumed Syrio fell under the category "dead, but leaving the door open so I can use the character later if I need to."

That said, Meryn Trant being alive and unharmed does not mean he killed Syrio. It is quite possible they never fought at all.

Trant's goal was not to kill Syrio. It was to apprehend Arya.

Syrio's goal was not to kill Trant. It was to buy Arya time to get away.

If Trant realized (or Syrio pointed out) that Arya was gone--and she WAS gone by that time or she would have seen what happened next, there was no real reason for either of them to risk death or injury/waste precious Arya hunting time fighting it out.

Trant may have said "you're under arrest/wait here until I get back/next time you won't get so lucky, *&#^!" Syrio could have then either escaped/been killed trying to escape/arrested and thrown in the dungeons as needed by the author.

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On top of that (and I could be completely off base, I'm just now starting my first re-read), how many people knew who Syrio really was? Ned, Arya and Varys, but was there anyone else?

Trant obviously knew Syrio was a capable fighter and not what he was portrayed as (a dancing instructor), but it seems likely to me that if Syrio got away along with Arya, I doubt Trant would want to admit it to Cersei for fear of how she might react. By blaming her escape on the dancing instructor's interference he escapes some of the responsibility for her escape (not a lot, but still). Following that, Cersei might not have known who Syrio really was, so why would she think any more about it after Trant tells her that he offed him in his attempt to get Arya? If she thought he was a simple dancing instructor, why worry more about it? Trant obviously didn't offer more of an explanation.

Plus since Varys basically controls the knowledge of everyone in the Red Keep, if he was working with Syrio he wouldn't have let anyone know his true identity that didn't absolutely need to know. Also, if Syrio = Jaqen then he didn't reveal his identity to anyone fully, which is a very Varys thing to do.

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