Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Dharma

Syrio Forel

Recommended Posts

So I would like to know how he managed to get himself actually locked up with the other prisoners of the black cells.

ok, I had something in mind like this:

- Three prisoners are in the black cells (Jaqen, Rorge, Biter).

- Yoren gets permission to take these three (along with the others).

- Yoren is going to do other things in KingsLanding, before returning to the Wall.

- Ned is taken.

- Syrio fights Trant.

- Arya escapes.

- Someone intervened during the Syrio-Trant fight. Someone with authority over Trant and for example wanted to interrogate him later on.

- Syrio is thrown among the black cell prisoners [Note: at this moment there is a lot going on at KingsLanding].

- Syrio, when imprisoned with three beasts, kills Jaqen, and butchers him up, and takes his face.

- Rorge and Biter are impressed (and afraid).

- The goaler, before he had any time to record this new prisoner, finds out that the 'new' one is already killed by the old ones. No need to add him to the list (among all those deads that day, it's not noteworthy to write this one down, they are leaving anyway, thank god).

- Yoren prepares for leaving KingsLanding and lockes them in his cart.

- He waits for the beheading of Eddard (and looks for Arya).

- They leave.

Apparently there is evidence that this somehowe cannot work timeliny, but I haven't seen it, or it hasn't convinced me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps, but the 'none so blind' mantra is equally unfair and unjustified, in that both are characterisations designed to discredit the other side's thinking rather than critical assessments of the actual arguments put forward. On that latter point, there's no debate about which side has the stronger points.

I love it: with one breath you complain that it is unfair to suggest you are one of the "none so blind", and in the next you completely dismiss the opposing arguments. "There's no debate" is another version of your unrelenting dismissal of every hint and bit of evidence that disagrees with your conclusion - which, by the way, is extreme, in that you believe it is extremely unlikely that Syrio could have survived. You have presented your extreme position thus: Syrio could only have survived if Martin didn't merely mislead the readers, but completely hid the story behind his back.

To say that our position - that Syrio may well have survived - is only possible if Martin hid the story behind his back is to say that Martin has provided NO credible hints that Syrio might well have survived his encounter with Trant. Yet we find MANY such hints, MUCH evidence and logic supporting that conclusion, and present them in detail; you've ignored the many examples upthread.

Your statement about hiding the story thus requires a complete denial of the existence of evidence we not only see, but find equally or MORE persuasive than your evidence. You have the temerity to imply that what you do - simply deny that your opponents even have credible evidence - constitutes "critical assessment of the actual arguments put forward"!

No, I'm sorry but it's true: you are the very archetype of "those who will not see." You have proven yourself incapable of even acknowledging the existence of evidence and logic that many others see clearly. You entirely fail to "critically assess the actual arguments put forward".

Over the years, poster after poster has independently arrived at the conclusion that Martin provides substantial evidence that Syrio likely survived Trant. Incredibly, this unrelenting parade of people claiming to see the existence of persuasive evidence in favor of Syrio surviving has never prompted you to even accept that such evidence exists. That's persistent, willful blindness.

I will add that your persistent REFUSAL to assess the actual arguments put forward, while complaining bitterly about my "none so blind" statement (which is admittedly not an assessment of the arguments), is particularly aggravating because those of us who disagree with you almost NEVER refuse to acknowledge your evidence, and to give it some credit for credibility, and to discuss it on the merits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To say that our position - that Syrio may well have survived - is only possible if Martin hid the story behind his back is to say that Martin has provided NO credible hints that Syrio might well have survived his encounter with Trant.

Indeed, I'm happy to confirm that this is my position. I don't find any of the things you've cited as 'evidence' to be credible as deliberate hints by the author to the effect that Syrio is alive.

But far from 'ignoring' the evidence or refusing to acknowledge it exists, I've read it, considered it fairly and without prejudice, discussed it reasonably, and after all that, come to a conclusion on its merits. Numerous posts over the course of considerable time exist to show this, and I'm quite happy to let them stand for themselves: as I am the posts of boarder after boarder who have independently come to the same conclusion, over the years.

ETA - If you'd like me to go over it all again, well, I'll see if I have the time. I'm not sure I see the point, though. It's not going to change your mind, is it? And these arguments do get quite lengthy.

It's not always the case that those who don't see the angel on the shoulder are wilfully blind. Sometimes, the angel just ain't there.

p.s. I assure you, by the way, that I'm in no way 'bitter' about this. Why on earth would I be? In the end, it's just a book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

- Someone intervened during the Syrio-Trant fight. Someone with authority over Trant and for example wanted to interrogate him later on.

OK, but you must realize that this is a massive bit of conjecture without any independent supporting evidence at all. If there is no independent hint that this happened - other than to make your overall theory work - then it amounts to something like deus ex machina, which Martin is rarely accused of doing.

See, that's what happened when I tried to piece together how it could have happened; I found one or another necessary step that was either wholly unsupported conjecture, or something that was flat-out contrary to the nature of the characters as described.

But assuming you can find a way to avoid that step, let's go on:

- Syrio is thrown among the black cell prisoners [Note: at this moment there is a lot going on at KingsLanding].

Erm, who does the throwing? It must be somebody different from the incompetent gaoler you mention below, because this one has already seen Syrio, or at least somebody different from the present three black cell denizens, and this somebody also fails to document the prisoner.

Moreover, you assume that the three, now four black cell prisoners are in the same cell, and are able to attack each other. I suppose that's one way to reduce your prisoner population.

- Syrio, when imprisoned with three beasts, kills Jaqen, and butchers him up, and takes his face.

- Rorge and Biter are impressed (and afraid).

- The goaler, before he had any time to record this new prisoner, finds out that the 'new' one is already killed by the old ones. No need to add him to the list (among all those deads that day, it's not noteworthy to write this one down, they are leaving anyway, thank god).

So now, additionally to the above, the gaoler must have failed to note that there was a prisoner, and that he died? OK, it was busy - but not that busy in the gaol, particularly in the black cells.

I guess we assume the prisoners are only now, as they are prepared to join Yoren, being chained near each other.

- Yoren prepares for leaving KingsLanding and lockes them in his cart.

- He waits for the beheading of Eddard (and looks for Arya).

- They leave.

Apparently there is evidence that this somehowe cannot work timeliny, but I haven't seen it, or it hasn't convinced me.

You're OK with needing: intervention that's not hinted at; a failure to document a prisoner to the black cells supported only by general busyness in the area, not in the gaol; and a failure to document a dead prisoner, supported only by the same thin excuse?

Well, it's all possible unless the timeline renders it not. However, I prefer those theories in which the steps explain curious facts that are otherwise surprising and inadequately explained. I choose not to pursue theories that rely on completely unsupported conjecture, because that creates more unexplained anomalies than it explains. But YMMV.

In this case, the improbability of the unsupported conjecture - including: an unhinted intervenor who does not document throwing Syrio into the black cells, and a separate black cells gaoler who entirely fails in his documentation duties and who does not even mention to Yoren the killing and butchering of a prisoner by one of the three who are going with him - seems to grossly outweigh the improbability factors it addresses, to wit: Jaqen having a Braavosi accent like Syrio (which, come to think of it, seems quite WELL explained by the fact that the House of B&W is based in Braavos), and the substantial help Jaqen provided to Arya in Harrenhal (which is supported, if not entirely satisfactorily, by Jaqen's story that he had to balance the deaths that Arya "stole"; while this has not been explained, I haven't seen any contradictory evidence yet). So it creates far more improbability than it explains, and to me that makes it a fail.

Why couldn't Syrio simply walk out of the castle the same way Selmy did, trying to avoid opposition but killing anybody who tried to stop him? They weren't just slaughtering everybody in the city. Syrio wasn't well known; only Trant was looking for him, and if he got away then Trant was probably incapacitated, or at least too busy to chase him through KL. All Syrio has to do is get on a ship to Braavos, and he's home free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, but you must realize that this is a massive bit of conjecture without any independent supporting evidence at all. If there is no independent hint that this happened - other than to make your overall theory work - then it amounts to something like deus ex machina, which Martin is rarely accused of doing.

deus ex machina like Sandor being left to die? Arya was one of the most wanted girls at that time. I don't know who sent Trent, but I think Petyr, Varys, and Cercei would all three have liked to come into her possesion. imo it's not so unlikely that someone else found Trent and Syrio fighting.

Erm, who does the throwing? It must be somebody different from the incompetent gaoler you mention below, because this one has already seen Syrio, or at least somebody different from the present three black cell denizens, and this somebody also fails to document the prisoner.

And that's why the man is butchered, so he is unrecognisable, and even someone who has seen Syrio will thingk it really was Syrio, since the other three are obviously still alive.

Moreover, you assume that the three, now four black cell prisoners are in the same cell, and are able to attack each other. I suppose that's one way to reduce your prisoner population.

That's indeed an assumption. But I choose this assumption over every other made-up story that explains how someone as gifted, sensible and commuicative a person as Jaqen came into the black cells in the first place.

So now, additionally to the above, the gaoler must have failed to note that there was a prisoner, and that he died? OK, it was busy - but not that busy in the gaol, particularly in the black cells.

He knew, but he didn't bother to write it down. Why should he? he is dead already. It wouldn't speak well for him if he lost his prisoner in 5 minutes, better make it a war casuality.

I guess we assume the prisoners are only now, as they are prepared to join Yoren, being chained near each other.

Indeed, assumption as well. Goes along with the other one, Yoren is obviously a smart man.

In this case, the improbability of the unsupported conjecture - including: an unhinted intervenor who does not document throwing Syrio into the black cells, and a separate black cells gaoler who entirely fails in his documentation duties and who does not even mention to Yoren the killing and butchering of a prisoner by one of the three who are going with him - seems to grossly outweigh the improbability factors it addresses

Don't you think a goaler will be glad these three men are sent to the wall? They weren't actually the ordinary prisoners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is substantial evidence that Syrio is a nearly peerless fighter: his First Sword of Braavos position, the killing of five fully armed guards using only a wooden practice sword, and the extreme speed he used in doing it.

Selmy Barristan dismisses Trant with the rest of kingsguard excepting Jaime, saying (while only partly armored) that he could still cut through the lot of them like a sharp knife through cheese; and his boast seems to be confirmed by the fact that they stand down after his challenge. I'm unaware of any evidence that Trant is a good fighter, but I'd be happy to consider some.

These facts require a conclusion that Syrio is a much better fighter than Trant, and in particular is much faster. Because fighting ability is central to a fight, this evidence favors Syrio surviving Trant. One may argue that other evidence outweighs this evidence, but that is NOT the same as denying that this is evidence supporting Syrio's survival.

There is no evidence that Syrio is stupid, crazy, or suicidal, and there is a great deal of evidence that far from being crazy or stupid, he is wise, knowledgeable, talented, and sees exactly what is there. One can argue that Syrio was suicidal, but Martin has provided no hint that he might be suicidal, except for the circular argument that he was suicidal because he engaged five guardsmen and an armored knight. In the absence of independent (not circularly derived) evidence that Syrio was suicidal, no worthy opponent would rely with confidence on a contention that Syrio was suicidal.

But if Syrio was not stupid, suicidal, or crazy, then he believed there was a substantial chance that he could survive a fight with five Lannister guardsmen and Meryn Trant. The premise is almost certainly true, so the conclusion is also almost certainly true. This is reasoning based on canonical facts about Syrio, as contrasted with an absence of contrary canonical facts, and it supports a conclusion that there was, at the beginning of the fight, a reasonably good chance that Syrio could survive a fight with the five guardsmen and Trant. This evidence supports my contention that Syrio could well have survived Trant; evidence that Syrio would not have survived may overbalance, but cannot negate the existence of, this evidence.

Before Syrio engaged Trant, he completely destroyed the five guardsmen. Because there is evidence that there was a reasonable chance that Syrio could survive a fight with five guardsmen and Trant (preceding paragraph), the same evidence much more strongly supports my contention that there is a reasonably good chance that Syrio could survive Trant alone. Evidence contrary to my contention may overbalance but not expunge this evidence.

On at least two occasions (Egen/Bronn, Oberyn/Gregor), Martin has described lightly armored combatants overcoming much more heavily armored combatants. This is evidence that in this universe the lightly armored but more mobile combatant may be able to overcome a fully armored combatant. This evidence does not favor either combatant, but it does contradict an argument that Trant's armor is an overwhelming advantage. It may have been true in medieval England, but it is not true in ASOIAF.

In substantially open fields, the lightly armored combatants above were able to avoid being cut by their opponents substantially by outmaneuvering them due to their greater mobility - dancing around them, not running away, but staying out of reach. But the room of the fight is NOT an open field, but is cluttered with fallen guardsmen and weapons. Given the strong evidence that Syrio is very fast and the lack of such evidence for Trant, coupled with the cluttered room and Trant's limited visibility versus Syrio's complete visibility, there should be no question but that Syrio could have avoided Trant's sword swings, by simply avoiding close engagement with Trant and forcing him to chase him around the cluttered room. That is the usual method for a lightly armored combatant to deal with a heavily armored opponent, as Bronn explained to Tyrion.

Barring Syrio being suicidal, then, avoiding engagement would seem at first glance to be the safest way for Syrio to deal with Meryn Trant, particularly in view of the fact that Syrio's wooden practice sword was ineffective against Trant's armor. In fact, by dancing around Syrio should have had no trouble picking up a sword from a dead guardsman, one that would be useful at least for blocking Trant's sword.

The fact that Syrio did NOT follow that course, in conjunction with the earlier conclusion that he is not suicidal, crazy or stupid, is therefore unexpected, an anomaly that will be explained by any complete theory of the event.

My theory of the event explains the anomaly thusly: consistent with the evidence above that he was reasonably confident of overcoming five guardsmen plus Trant, Syrio does not fear Trant. He decides that the best way (perhaps the quickest way?) to overcome Trant is to get into close quarters with him. This conclusion is required by the fact that Syrio did just that.

Now, because the lights were turned off, I must necessarily speculate. Consistent with the fact that he chose to move in on Trant, I speculate that Syrio decided to use his greater mobility against Trant; knocking Trant down would effectively incapacitate him. In a room full of fallen guardsmen that very reasonable goal could perhaps best be accomplished by getting inside Trant's sword range. Trant's last sword slash went through Syrio's raised stick, and thus went past Syrio traveling away from him, so Syrio seems to have accomplished that. Now all he needs do is push Trant over before he can recover his sword momentum and balance. My bet: within seconds after the wooden sword was cut, Trant will be on his back, unable to attack Syrio, who can then easily pick up a sword - perhaps even prying Trant's away from him, but it hardly matters because from his back Trant wouldn't be much threat.

Once Syrio has a sword and Trant is down, Syrio could probably kill Trant, but I'm unaware of any evidence that he kills without cause. Moreover, Trant's armor might make killing him a nontrivial job. In any event, Syrio's needs are adequately satisfied by a solid whack to the fallen Trant's helmeted head, which has the small additional advantage of not killing somebody unnecessarily. It is consistent with Trant being alive, but saying no more about Forel than that Arya's dancing master interfered with his effort to take Arya.

Syrio's superior prowess favors him over Trant. Syrio's confidence in the face of Trant plus guardsmen, in further view of his expertise in fighting, his wisdom, and his ability to see the truth quickly and clearly, provides compelling reasons to trust his judgment, despite the frightening appearances that make us, like Arya, fear that he will be killed. Perhaps Syrio was wrong, misjudged the battle and his opponent and made the wrong moves and got himself killed. However, the fact that he has lost half of a stick that was practically useless anyway is certainly no evidence that he has not made the correct tactical moves to overcome Trant.

Is it possible to place bets on the outcome of this fight? I'd love to place a very large bet against those who are positive that Trant killed Syrio. We can negotiate the odds. I'll personally risk up to $10,000, money to be put into escrow or however these things are handled (knowledgeable advice is welcome), bets to be paid as soon as we have canonical confirmation of the outcome of the fight. Then I'll hope that we find out in my lifetime. If this is illegal or contrary to board rules, it is of course null and void - at least here - but I'd make private arrangements if THAT's legal. Aw come on, it would be fun. What odds are you willing to put money behind?

Given that the argument seems to be between one camp whose members claim Forel has practically no chance (call it 5%?) of having survived Trant, versus those of us who think he has a better-than-even chance (call it 55%?), 2:1 (33% probability that Syrio survived, slightly greater than [5%+(55%-5%)/2] which is the same as [10%+(50%-10%)/2]=30%) seems like about the midpoint of the odds the two camps espouse (slightly favoring the 5% camp). Members of both camps should be extremely happy to bet at those odds - it should look like a slam dunk to both sides. I'd certainly be glad to bet at those odds. If it's legal, we could do it as a pool. If you don't like the odds, we could negotiate something else. If people are really willing to put money on it, that would be an interesting discussion.

ETA paren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
These facts require a conclusion that Syrio is a much better fighter than Trant, and in particular is much faster. Because fighting ability is central to a fight, this evidence favors Syrio surviving Trant. One may argue that other evidence outweighs this evidence, but that is NOT the same as denying that this is evidence supporting Syrio's survival.
It's not as central as you think, as Jorah versus the multiple, quick, unarmored, armed bloodriders shows.

There is no evidence that Syrio is stupid, crazy, or suicidal, and there is a great deal of evidence that far from being crazy or stupid, he is wise, knowledgeable, talented, and sees exactly what is there.
A great deal? Quotes please. We don't hear much about Syrio apart from his stint with Trant and his speech about the stray Tom.

But anyway, I don't see being loyal as being stupid, crazy or suicidal, as Raynald Westerling shows, nor do I think it has to be all or nothing and Syrio could peer into the future and know for sure the result of any engagement.

And the angle about "Syrio doesn't think he will lose" is ridiculous on the face that Syrio sent Arya away, instead of keeping her near him (you know, since he is confident he will win, to protect her)

On at least two occasions (Egen/Bronn, Oberyn/Gregor), Martin has described lightly armored combatants overcoming much more heavily armored combatants. This is evidence that in this universe the lightly armored but more mobile combatant may be able to overcome a fully armored combatant. This evidence does not favor either combatant, but it does contradict an argument that Trant's armor is an overwhelming advantage.
No it does not. You cannot generalize from those two cases with very specific circumstances to another case with wildly different circumstances. If anything you have to look at what actually did offset the overwhelming advantage offered by plate: extremely long reach, poison, buckler, real weapon, plate guy fighting with an unfamiliar weapon, or statue falling on plate guy.

(ETA: and of course, Oberyn did die in that fight... Gregor wouldn't have, without poison. That is not a good argument in favour of unarmoured fighters to bring out a fight where the lightly armoured guy only manages to scratch the armoured one, and avoids all hits, except the last, final, lethal one)

Given the strong evidence that Syrio is very fast and the lack of such evidence for Trant, coupled with the cluttered room and Trant's limited visibility versus Syrio's complete visibility, there should be no question but that Syrio could have avoided Trant's sword swings, by simply avoiding close engagement with Trant and forcing him to chase him around the cluttered room.
Except what we are shown, as in, what's written in the books, shows that Syrio could not move away, and in fact had to parry, getting his stick severed. There is indeed no question about it: he could barely avoid Trant's swings, and couldn't spin away, grab something, kill Trant then escort Arya away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And the angle about "Syrio doesn't think he will lose" is ridiculous on the face that Syrio sent Arya away, instead of keeping her near him (you know, since he is confident he will win, to protect her)

Even if he was sure he would win, that doesn't mean that it would be safe to let his client's 8-year daughter supervise the fight. I mean, what if she had gotten hurt during the scuffle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But he doesn't say 'Arya child, do not be getting underfoot' he says:

“Arya child,” ... “we are done with dancing for the day. Best you are going now. Run to your father.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, yes. Syrio's mannerisms of speech are strange and mildly confusing. I still don't think he would want a child in the way while he was fighting anyone, even if he was armed and thought he would win. It's too much of a risk; he might be agile and in control, but the other guys might be clumsy and stab her by accident... or on purpose. He has no way of knowing that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that Syrio is possibly alive, but, if so his part of the tale is likely finished. I only say this because to me it would be extremely cheesy if he just "happened" to meet Arya in Bravos in her moment of need. If Jaqan=Syrio that might be more convincing, but Jaqan=Pate right now and it looks to remain that way until his job in the Citidel is done. There is no telling how long that might be and the Citidel is much too far from Bravos to allow Jaqan=Syrio=Pate time to reunite with Arya in any case.

As i said Syrio cannot be Jaqen because of the timeline.

Yoren asked for and got approval to take his pick of the dungeons several days before the coup and when the fubar hit he was already ready to leave but then got the message to wait for Eddard Stark.

But if Syrio is a Faceless man, another faceless Man, then he could have, maybe, killed Trant and take on his face which would explain some unfinished details of that whole deal much better then becoming Jaqen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, but I'd argue the subtext there is 'your father can protect you better than I can'. Now that's true whether he lives or dies but it doesn't scream 'I'm confident of beating a fully-armoured Meryn Trant with this broken stick'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As i said Syrio cannot be Jaqen because of the timeline.

Yoren asked for and got approval to take his pick of the dungeons several days before the coup and when the fubar hit he was already ready to leave but then got the message to wait for Eddard Stark.

But if Syrio is a Faceless man, another faceless Man, then he could have, maybe, killed Trant and take on his face which would explain some unfinished details of that whole deal much better then becoming Jaqen.

Well, I don't think Syrio=fm. My reasoning is thus: Syrio was First Sword of Braavos. Why would the FM put one of their best agents (able to magically alter their appearance) in such a position only to send them to KL? Not only that, but why put one of their agents in danger (in court there is always danger, even a misspoke word) for no reason other than to get them to KL? Are there no other avenues? And why Trant? The guy is pathetic. What possible advantage for the Fm could there be for putting FMsyrio in such a position? I still concur that Syrio is probably alive, but I still think his story in ASoIaF is done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok, I had something in mind like this:

- Three prisoners are in the black cells (Jaqen, Rorge, Biter).

- Yoren gets permission to take these three (along with the others).

- Yoren is going to do other things in KingsLanding, before returning to the Wall.

- Ned is taken.

- Syrio fights Trant.

- Arya escapes.

- Someone intervened during the Syrio-Trant fight. Someone with authority over Trant and for example wanted to interrogate him later on.

- Syrio is thrown among the black cell prisoners [Note: at this moment there is a lot going on at KingsLanding].

- Syrio, when imprisoned with three beasts, kills Jaqen, and butchers him up, and takes his face.

- Rorge and Biter are impressed (and afraid).

- The goaler, before he had any time to record this new prisoner, finds out that the 'new' one is already killed by the old ones. No need to add him to the list (among all those deads that day, it's not noteworthy to write this one down, they are leaving anyway, thank god).

- Yoren prepares for leaving KingsLanding and lockes them in his cart.

- He waits for the beheading of Eddard (and looks for Arya).

- They leave.

It works if we create these events we're never told dispite how they go against certain characters. Which is the very definition Mormont eluded to Hiding the story behind his back. Not only is he hiding it behind his back but he actually writing passages to need this story to be more elaborate behind his back. The addition of the emacculate bookkeeping jailor blows this theory out of the water unless his sole purpose in the story is to deceive us, in the fourth book mind you about a scene 1/2 into the first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and when the fubar hit he was already ready to leave

And have you any evidence that 'ready to leave' means that Jaqen, Rorge and Biter where already in the cage? Couldn't it just mean that he had done where he came for and had no more bussiness there than taken the lot back to the wall?

For example, if I am ready to let the dogs out, doesn't mean that the dogs are already waiting with their leashes on, it's just that I read the newspaper and finished my breakfast. If I, after coming to that conclusion, am told by someone to wait 30 minutes because he wants me to take his dog with me as well, I wait with the leashes as well, there is no need put them on yet. But being in a hurry, as Yoren is, I would put on the collars after 28 minutes to speed up the process.

Maybe my example is irrelevant, but without further evidence of already being in that cage, I don't think being ready is enough to claim something about the timeline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It works if we create these events we're never told dispite how they go against certain characters. Which is the very definition Mormont eluded to Hiding the story behind his back. Not only is he hiding it behind his back but he actually writing passages to need this story to be more elaborate behind his back. The addition of the emacculate bookkeeping jailor blows this theory out of the water unless his sole purpose in the story is to deceive us, in the fourth book mind you about a scene 1/2 into the first.

Well, since the author is working from certain viewpoints, he can't write down everything. Sometimes because it is not important, sometimtes because he doesn't want to. There is a reason he doesn't write from Varys or Petyr's point of view.

The reason I come up with a scenario like this, is because it is unexplainable to me why Rorge and Biter are afraid of Jaqen. Why someone as clever as Jaqen, member of the faceless man guild, is in the black cells wihtou us hearing about it (well, that, imo, is Hiding a story behind our back). Something like that needs explanation, just like how grrm explained why Rorge are Biter are in there.

Speaking about Deus Ex Machines, there you have got one, a faceless man pops up out of jail solely to give Arya a coin??? Without giving us any clue where he came from. That's hiding the story with no reason at all. Think about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no evidence that Syrio is stupid, crazy, or suicidal, and there is a great deal of evidence that far from being crazy or stupid, he is wise, knowledgeable, talented, and sees exactly what is there. One can argue that Syrio was suicidal, but Martin has provided no hint that he might be suicidal, except for the circular argument that he was suicidal because he engaged five guardsmen and an armored knight. In the absence of independent (not circularly derived) evidence that Syrio was suicidal, no worthy opponent would rely with confidence on a contention that Syrio was suicidal.

Syrio is a bravo, and not just a bravo but a water dancer only one in a thousand men attempt to fight in these contests because their so deadly. That's definately speaks to him not caring much for his life.

But if Syrio was not stupid, suicidal, or crazy, then he believed there was a substantial chance that he could survive a fight with five Lannister guardsmen and Meryn Trant. The premise is almost certainly true, so the conclusion is also almost certainly true. This is reasoning based on canonical facts about Syrio, as contrasted with an absence of contrary canonical facts, and it supports a conclusion that there was, at the beginning of the fight, a reasonably good chance that Syrio could survive a fight with the five guardsmen and Trant. This evidence supports my contention that Syrio could well have survived Trant; evidence that Syrio would not have survived may overbalance, but cannot negate the existence of, this evidence.

Really why can't he be heroic? Please answer that. How is him deciding to fight to the death to help his student in his care is stupid, crazy or suicidal?

See you've created this flawed logic that Syrio knew he would win rather then him hopelessly defying the odds solely one theis principle he's not heroic when its very wihtin his character to be.

On at least two occasions (Egen/Bronn, Oberyn/Gregor), Martin has described lightly armored combatants overcoming much more heavily armored combatants. This is evidence that in this universe the lightly armored but more mobile combatant may be able to overcome a fully armored combatant. This evidence does not favor either combatant, but it does contradict an argument that Trant's armor is an overwhelming advantage. It may have been true in medieval England, but it is not true in ASOIAF.

How does this support Syrio being alive the key points your missing in both those tales are they had armour and weapons and needed to injure their oponents. Not true in ASOIAF what about Jorah on two seperate occations killing faster Dothraki warriors because of his armour or Victarion killing how many sailors solely because of his armour?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, but I'd argue the subtext there is 'your father can protect you better than I can'. Now that's true whether he lives or dies but it doesn't scream 'I'm confident of beating a fully-armoured Meryn Trant with this broken stick'

There is no doubt in my mind that Syrio thought that the danger is extreme and that he may not survive.

Well, I don't think Syrio=fm. My reasoning is thus: Syrio was First Sword of Braavos. Why would the FM put one of their best agents (able to magically alter their appearance) in such a position only to send them to KL? Not only that, but why put one of their agents in danger (in court there is always danger, even a misspoke word) for no reason other than to get them to KL? Are there no other avenues? And why Trant? The guy is pathetic. What possible advantage for the Fm could there be for putting FMsyrio in such a position? I still concur that Syrio is probably alive, but I still think his story in ASoIaF is done.

The reason for positioning him where he was is pretty obvious. He is in the middle of the Red Keep, working directly for the Hand of the Realm which gives him direct access to everything, really.

Thats further improved by the fact that everyone outside Stark inner circle thinks him a mere dancing teacher.

Perfect disguise within disguise... - within disguise.

Taking on Trants face allows him to remain in arguably same or very similar position.

And allows Martin to claim what he did about Syrio and being right in both possible meanings of it.

And have you any evidence that 'ready to leave' means that Jaqen, Rorge and Biter where already in the cage? Couldn't it just mean that he had done where he came for and had no more bussiness there than taken the lot back to the wall?

For example, if I am ready to let the dogs out, doesn't mean that the dogs are already waiting with their leashes on, it's just that I read the newspaper and finished my breakfast. If I, after coming to that conclusion, am told by someone to wait 30 minutes because he wants me to take his dog with me as well, I wait with the leashes as well, there is no need put them on yet. But being in a hurry, as Yoren is, I would put on the collars after 28 minutes to speed up the process.

Maybe my example is irrelevant, but without further evidence of already being in that cage, I don't think being ready is enough to claim something about the timeline.

The example is highly irrelevant.

Aside from that, what we know about Yoren and his ways of doing his business tells us enough to reasonably predict that he didnt wait for days and days to collect the last three prisoners during the Lannister coup or just after it.

He was ready - meaning he had all his prisoners packed and ready to go when he was stopped and told to wait for Eddard

who was supposed to take the black.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, since the author is working from certain viewpoints, he can't write down everything. Sometimes because it is not important, sometimtes because he doesn't want to. There is a reason he doesn't write from Varys or Petyr's point of view.

The reason I come up with a scenario like this, is because it is unexplainable to me why Rorge and Biter are afraid of Jaqen. Why someone as clever as Jaqen, member of the faceless man guild, is in the black cells wihtou us hearing about it (well, that, imo, is Hiding a story behind our back). Something like that needs explanation, just like how grrm explained why Rorge are Biter are in there.

[\quote]

That's not hiding the story that is the story we have. A backstory for a minor character sitting in a cell for years regardless of his powers has nothing to due with our main story.

Surely if you can come up with your sinario you can easily imagine ten to answer your questions without him being Syrio. Jaqen kill merchant X is caught sentenced to BC, does FM trick scares Rorge, sits in sell. There.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way there is no mention in the books that Jaqen scared Rorge and Biter during their stay in the black cells.

I believe it is mentioned very much later on when all three of them come to Harenhall where Arya recognizes them, before the weasel soup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×