Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Dharma

Syrio Forel

Recommended Posts

Suddenly he cannot collect a dozen criminals and arrange necessities for the trip even if he spent almost all his life (or was it something like twenty years) doing just that all the frigging time.

Good point, he does that all the time, but he does need some time between knowing he can take the three black cell prisoner with him and arranging a cart, doesn't he?

Then he goes into the Red keep in the middle of the fighting or after it and just releases whoever he likes from the prison, no one asking him anything. But by miracle he chooses only the three, not taking any Starks, northerners or other that Lannisters wouldnt like to set loose at that time.

He already has a legitim paper which said that he could take these prisoners with him. You're the one inventing things like the paper not being valid anymore.

With allowance given by a traitor - who is in those cells too. But Yoren doesnt take Eddard, even if nobody would have anything against that. Because they dont care. And everyone is ok with that.

By the Hand of the king. Why would they make such a fuss about prisoners that are going to the wall? Ofcourse, if he had ordered an attack on Casterly Rock, I would understand what you are talking about. But he is cleaning the cells...

And by miracle Syrio chose to take the face of Jaqen so he could stay a prisoner in black cells, one probably destined to be executed. That was his grand plan.

Or he miraculously knew that Jaqen is going to be taken north. How? who knows?

By accident.

Good point. He wouldn't have known that they would be taken to the wall, my mistake. However, as Syrio, who just defied the Lannisters, he was probably a bit surer to be executed (and sooner) than as Jaqen. He bought time, by facechanging into Jaqen, to think about a solution. And luckily for him, it came when Yoren took him North.

I dont mean to offend. I just cant think seriously about such logic.

But when i start thinking that someone imagines Martins logic as such... my head starts to hurt.

Imo you only have a problem with the timeline, that Yoren should have taken the prisoners out of jail before the coup happened. I think the fact that Rorge and Biter are scared of Jaqen needs an even greater imagination (of how he scared them, we have seen nothing, besides skinchanging, what could make them that afraid) than imaging Yoren took the prisoners out after the coup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we know of Yoren is that he is brutally efficient and doesnt waste time.

We can reasonably assume that he went to business as soon as he got the approval.

The selection of prisoners should not have taken him longer then one day, getting the wagons and supplies another day or two. Allow for another few days theoretically for various accidental delays.

Say a week all together.

Another thing, I looked Errant's timeline and it looks like there is a month between Yoren asking for the prisoners and the Lannister Coup, if I am reading the timeline correct. Surely no-one asked Yoren to stay before the coup had even happened. If he was ready in a week, what's taking him so long? What is he waiting for?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah. So Syrio WAS suicidal - his goal was to go out in a blaze of glory. Compelling argument.

Except - don't bravos prefer to win? It's likely that Syrio has never LOST a sword fight. So he's going to reverse himself in his paramount quest - WINNING fights - in order to avoid reversing himself in terms of his bravo culture? And this is an argument that Syrio will remain consistent?

This "bravo culture" that controls Syrio's actions is OiL's invention - not merely unsupported speculation, it's contrary to a logical interpretation of the textual facts. We know bravos challenge, strut, and boast, but OiL's take is that they ARE suicidal (er, I mean, "wantonly risk their lives"), challenging at every opportunity to prove fearlessness. But techniques to avoid fights are canon (e.g., don't touch your sword, etc.), and discretion is a logical necessity or there'd be very few bravos. Terro and Orbelo would gladly have challenged fat Sam, but not the First Sword; and so it goes. Only the soon-to-die fail to exercise discretion. It simply cannot be a part of bravo culture to compulsively challenge against insuperable odds.

Syrio attributes his success to perceptiveness, and that would include appraising his enemies. However "bravo culture" might be correctly defined by one privileged to know, Syrio isn't a blind adherent to "bravo culture", but an individual with principles that have enabled him to survive long enough to lose his hair (50?). His skill and discretion have kept him from entering losing fights for a very long time.

I agree with OiL to this extent: Syrio is likely to continue the habits of a lifetime. It is clearly his habit is to win all the fights he enters.

Not suicidal, just proud.

Think of it this way. Syrio is old, and proud, and his skills are essentially wasted at this point in his life. He either has a normal career that he hates, or he doesn't have one at all, otherwise he wouldn't likely have agreed to come and teach an 8 year old girl how to become a water dancer. His skills are completely wasted.

Now, an opportunity presents itself. He appraises the situation, realizes Arya has no chance of escaping on her own, and chooses to hold off her pursuers in order to let her escape. This satisfies Syrio in multiple ways. 1) He gets to kick some serious ass again, 2) He has a chance at an honorable death, and 3) His last pupil gets to keep her life.

My original thought was that Syrio said that he never runs so he could convince Arya to flee, but I had forgotten about water dancers and their arrogance. These guys are essentially brawlers. They're bold and arrogant, and while Syrio probably isn't as much so (since both of those things would keep someone from truly "seeing" a situation for what it is), he is incredibly proud and confident in his self. I just don't see him fleeing at this point even if he knew he couldn't win. This is as good of a death as someone like Syrio could possibly hope to achieve in their lifetime (especially where Syrio is in his).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not suicidal, just proud.

Think of it this way. Syrio is old, and proud, and his skills are essentially wasted at this point in his life. He either has a normal career that he hates, or he doesn't have one at all, otherwise he wouldn't likely have agreed to come and teach an 8 year old girl how to become a water dancer. His skills are completely wasted.

Now, an opportunity presents itself. He appraises the situation, realizes Arya has no chance of escaping on her own, and chooses to hold off her pursuers in order to let her escape. This satisfies Syrio in multiple ways. 1) He gets to kick some serious ass again, 2) He has a chance at an honorable death, and 3) His last pupil gets to keep her life.

My original thought was that Syrio said that he never runs so he could convince Arya to flee, but I had forgotten about water dancers and their arrogance. These guys are essentially brawlers. They're bold and arrogant, and while Syrio probably isn't as much so (since both of those things would keep someone from truly "seeing" a situation for what it is), he is incredibly proud and confident in his self. I just don't see him fleeing at this point even if he knew he couldn't win. This is as good of a death as someone like Syrio could possibly hope to achieve in their lifetime (especially where Syrio is in his).

Sigh. People pick up a thread of conjecture unmoored by the text and run wild with it. Of course Syrio is proud, but from that you have deduced that he's suicidal - that his pride requires him to compulsively take on insurmountable odds? What text shows he's unhappy teaching water dancing to a 9 yo? What text shows he believes he has little left to live for? What text hints he's looking for a place to die gloriously?

The only basis for this theory is imagination, and not Martin's. Not only does this psychobabble entirely lack positive textual support, it is inconsistent with things we know from the text. For example, far from being a done old man, Syrio is about as hale and skilled as Barristan Selmy - and you don't see Selmy getting suicidal when his life's work is taken from him (though, like Syrio, he kills a few people that challenge him). Further, Syrio's demeanor is crisp, sharp, energetic; no competent psychologist (who hasn't assumed a conclusion of suicide) would say Syrio is described as despondent, done, tired of life, waiting to die. Finally, if Syrio was looking for an opportunity to die with dignity, teaching water dancing to Arya is the last job he'd take. Instead he'd be in a job that offered more danger and more glory. Thus, his job with Arya actually demonstrates that he is NOT looking for a place to die gloriously. He probably likes kids; he certainly liked Arya.

The whole thing is backwards: OiL assumes the conclusion (that Trant killed Syrio), and deduces from that conclusion a premise (Syrio was suicidal), which she then explains by creatively imagining Syrio's done life and misery. It might make a good story, but it's NOT suggested by the story GRRM wrote. Do you understand how backward that logic is?

And where did you get the idea that Syrio was saving Arya's life? Noble captives weren't killed, but traded. Syrio's efforts made this difference: they let Arya be on the lam, hunted, instead of already captured. And, BTW, I don't suggest that Syrio ran - I think it's far more likely that TRANT ran.

I agree that Syrio is proud; and at least for that reason, it's silly to think he'd choose to die at the hand of a baggy-eyed knight for whom he has contempt. I also agree that he was happy to kick some serious ass - a point that is contrary to the "Syrio is suicidal" conjecture.

Syrio's analysis of fighting shows intelligence as well as perceptiveness. He has lived with his fighting abilities for decades, so we can safely assume that Syrio knows his own capabilities. WE were surprised by his destroying the guards, and Trant initially thought they were just incompetent, falling over each other ("Bloody oafs," he called them). But the guards didn't fall over each other by clumsiness:

The red cloaks came at him from three sides ... Syrio did not wait for them to reach him, but spun to his left. ... He
checked one sword
with his stick and
whirled away from a second. Off balance, the second man lurched
into the first. Syrio
put a boot to his back
and the red cloaks went down together.

Syrio knew just when and where to push. He fights with brains, not brawn alone, and expressly knocks the Westerosi guards off balance to knock them down. I'll show below why this rarely considered textual fact is important.

The next three paragraphs identify some textual support I'll be referring to later. First, some textual facts: Syrio demonstrated overwhelming fighting superiority over FIVE guardsmen. He expressed contempt for Trant, even while he had the five guardsmen with him: "You're slow, for a knight.". Though Barristan Selmy was partly unarmored while Trant and other kingsguards were fully armored, Selmy expressed contempt for them altogether "Even now I could cut through the lot of you like a knife through cheese." The child-beater Trant confirmed Selmy's evaluation and demonstrated his own cowardice by thereupon standing down despite the presence of the king and court.

Second, some multiply supported "common knowledge": to overcome a heavily armored opponent he fears, a fighter should dance around and wear down his opponent, staying out of reach (e.g., as Bronn expressed to Tyrion re: Gregor). It's more than reasonable to expect a speedy and unencumbered Syrio could easily have employed this technique with Trant, in a hall littered with five dead/dying guards and their arms, in view of Trant's encumbrance and reduced visibility.

Finally, facts about the narrative: Martin takes great care with these scenes, and misleads the readers: consider Bran/Rickon, who appeared to have been mercilessly chased down and killed, tarred and hung on Winterfell walls; or Sandor Clegane, so sure he was dying that he begged for the mercy of death and then was also pronounced dead by Elder Brother. Did Martin cheat, hide the story behind his back as some like to say? No: Elder Brother referred only to the Hound (and "that man") as being dead, buried by himself; and Elder Brother earlier said he himself had died and been reborn, hence wasn't literal in this regard.

In view of Martin's care with his scenes, surprising details should never be disregarded. Here's one surprising detail that is typically disregarded: rather than dance out of reach to perhaps get a sword and wear down the slow, encumbered, baggy-eyed Trant, Syrio promptly engaged him closely.

This should surprise anyone who assumes that Syrio believes Trant can readily kill him. But that assumption is supported only by readers' personal expectations, not by text. The opposite assumption - that Syrio does not think Trant can kill him - fits the facts much better, because it's consistent with: Syrio's choice to engage five guards plus Trant; his stated contempt for Trant; and his confidence, i.e., his knowledge of his demonstrably extraordinary abilities (a point on which we agree). We can't know Syrio's mental state with certainty, but there's substantial textual reason to believe that Syrio truly did NOT fear Trant at close quarters, and no textual reason to think he was suicidal.

Why didn't Syrio dance away from Trant long enough to pick up a real weapon? Why did he, to the contrary, promptly engage closely with Trant? Text and logic supports the surmise that his goal was to knock Trant down. Text proves that knocking Westerosi fighters down is something Syrio does very well. The text (e.g., Bronn to Tyrion IIRC) also supports the common sense idea that a fully armored man on his back is a much reduced threat.

Moreover, a goal of putting Trant on the floor would explain Syrio allowing his stick to be sheared off - that frightening fact that many consider to have sealed Syrio's doom - as more likely the prelude to Trant's fall.

Syrio is shown skillful at unbalancing fighters wielding heavy Westerosi swords, and knew that Trant's armor was proof against injury from the stick. He therefore should have been (and as a master fighter should be assumed to have been) willing to sacrifice the stick to unbalance Trant. By getting Trant to swing hard enough, the sudden yielding when Trant's sword went through the stick is quite a likely way to unbalance Trant. Syrio would be expecting the loss of balance and prepared to help Trant fall, exactly as he did with the guardsman. Once down, the encumbered Trant would be at his mercy as soon as Syrio got a real sword.

Trant initially thought the guardsmen fell due to their incompetence ("Bloody oafs," he swore). The real reason, however, was Syrio's skill - as I contend Syrio quickly demonstrated to Trant. We suspect Trant is a coward - he beats little girls like Sansa, but stands down when challenged by Barristan - so upon realizing that Syrio could easily outfight him and would kill him as soon as he got a sword, Trant would beat feet for reinforcements, relying on his armor to protect his hasty retreat. His alacrity in retreat explains his survival.

There's no textual support for Syrio being suicidal (the premature conclusion of Syrio's death isn't textual); there is some evidence contrary to the arguments that Syrio seeks death with dignity (Syrio's demeanor, robustness and choice of work); and there is substantial support for a conclusion that Trant probably did NOT kill Syrio, because Trant's a coward and Syrio's a vastly better fighter who is particularly skilled at unbalancing Westerosi fighters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion Syrio is dead. End of. There's plently of off-screen deaths of more influential characters than Syrio's that we haven't questioned, why should his be any different? Even if we assume that Syrio is the Faceless Man that we have grown to know and love, then his brief stint as Syrio has already ended and he seems in no great hurry to assume it again. Syrio being one of Jaqen's disguises would add to his backstory, but it would not give Syrio a future. Although he was a fine fighter, he was not invincible. Training the Hands Daughter is hardly a suitable task for some omnipotent swordmaster that many are making him out to be. The men he killed were hardly competent in comparison to a seasoned fighter, like the knight of the Kingsguard that he met his death at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing, I looked Errant's timeline and it looks like there is a month between Yoren asking for the prisoners and the Lannister Coup, if I am reading the timeline correct. Surely no-one asked Yoren to stay before the coup had even happened. If he was ready in a week, what's taking him so long? What is he waiting for?

I didnt read that timeline and one week was just my guessing at reasonable time in which someone like yoren could wrap it all up.

If it was a month then that only makes what i said even more reasonable and what you say eben more unreasonable.

Other than that i have no wish to continue this discussion and waste time explaining obvious things such as why Yoren would not be allowed to take prisoners after the coup.

Sigh. People pick up a thread of conjecture unmoored by the text and run wild with it. Of course Syrio is proud, but from that you have deduced that he's suicidal - that his pride requires him to compulsively take on insurmountable odds? What text shows he's unhappy teaching water dancing to a 9 yo? What text shows he believes he has little left to live for? What text hints he's looking for a place to die gloriously?

The only basis for this theory is imagination, and not Martin's. Not only does this psychobabble entirely lack positive textual support, it is inconsistent with things we know from the text. For example, far from being a done old man, Syrio is about as hale and skilled as Barristan Selmy - and you don't see Selmy getting suicidal when his life's work is taken from him (though, like Syrio, he kills a few people that challenge him). Further, Syrio's demeanor is crisp, sharp, energetic; no competent psychologist (who hasn't assumed a conclusion of suicide) would say Syrio is described as despondent, done, tired of life, waiting to die. Finally, if Syrio was looking for an opportunity to die with dignity, teaching water dancing to Arya is the last job he'd take. Instead he'd be in a job that offered more danger and more glory. Thus, his job with Arya actually demonstrates that he is NOT looking for a place to die gloriously. He probably likes kids; he certainly liked Arya.

The whole thing is backwards: OiL assumes the conclusion (that Trant killed Syrio), and deduces from that conclusion a premise (Syrio was suicidal), which she then explains by creatively imagining Syrio's done life and misery. It might make a good story, but it's NOT suggested by the story GRRM wrote. Do you understand how backward that logic is?

And where did you get the idea that Syrio was saving Arya's life? Noble captives weren't killed, but traded. Syrio's efforts made this difference: they let Arya be on the lam, hunted, instead of already captured. And, BTW, I don't suggest that Syrio ran - I think it's far more likely that TRANT ran.

I agree that Syrio is proud; and at least for that reason, it's silly to think he'd choose to die at the hand of a baggy-eyed knight for whom he has contempt. I also agree that he was happy to kick some serious ass - a point that is contrary to the "Syrio is suicidal" conjecture.

Finally, facts about the narrative: Martin takes great care with these scenes, and misleads the readers: consider Bran/Rickon, who appeared to have been mercilessly chased down and killed, tarred and hung on Winterfell walls; or Sandor Clegane, so sure he was dying that he begged for the mercy of death and then was also pronounced dead by Elder Brother. Did Martin cheat, hide the story behind his back as some like to say? No: Elder Brother referred only to the Hound (and "that man") as being dead, buried by himself; and Elder Brother earlier said he himself had died and been reborn, hence wasn't literal in this regard.

In view of Martin's care with his scenes, surprising details should never be disregarded. Here's one surprising detail that is typically disregarded: rather than dance out of reach to perhaps get a sword and wear down the slow, encumbered, baggy-eyed Trant, Syrio promptly engaged him closely.

This should surprise anyone who assumes that Syrio believes Trant can readily kill him. But that assumption is supported only by readers' personal expectations, not by text. The opposite assumption - that Syrio does not think Trant can kill him - fits the facts much better, because it's consistent with: Syrio's choice to engage five guards plus Trant; his stated contempt for Trant; and his confidence, i.e., his knowledge of his demonstrably extraordinary abilities (a point on which we agree). We can't know Syrio's mental state with certainty, but there's substantial textual reason to believe that Syrio truly did NOT fear Trant at close quarters, and no textual reason to think he was suicidal.

Why didn't Syrio dance away from Trant long enough to pick up a real weapon? Why did he, to the contrary, promptly engage closely with Trant? Text and logic supports the surmise that his goal was to knock Trant down. Text proves that knocking Westerosi fighters down is something Syrio does very well. The text (e.g., Bronn to Tyrion IIRC) also supports the common sense idea that a fully armored man on his back is a much reduced threat.

Moreover, a goal of putting Trant on the floor would explain Syrio allowing his stick to be sheared off - that frightening fact that many consider to have sealed Syrio's doom - as more likely the prelude to Trant's fall.

A couple of things.

To decide whether Syrio was suicidal or not and whether he did sacrifice himself for Arya or not we would have to know what Syrio knew about the future. In a way positing that Syrio knew the future.

Which he didnt.

I say he chose to do what he did without knowing the outcomes. I say he had no clear idea he would come out of that confrontation alive and he still fought despite that. A man well versed in combat as he is, with such a huge experience knows just one thing for certain - and that is that there is no certainty in a fight.

He can be confident in his abilities, brave and smart but being certain in the outcome is something only an idiot would do - not Syrio.

Lets not disregard the fact that the whole thing happened very fast and that there was no time for thinking in such manner. Being suicidal or being confident in the outcome doesnt come into it at all.

Im also fairly certain that Syrio didnt consider whether Arya will be merely captured or killed. He knew she was in grave danger and had no way of knowing or predicting what that danger will become in the near future.

Because of chaotic nature of the situation she could have been killed just as easily as captured and held hostage.

Even if she was held hostage it doesnt mean she wouldnt be killed in case some of the demands werent met or attempt at freeing her were made.

We can entertain such thoughts at length looking at the situation from this removed viewpoint, but it would be extremely foolish to suppose Syrio thought of it in that way. Weighting pros and cons of the situation, calculating and supposing and whatever.

He knew one thing : "She was in immediate and grave danger." Nothing more.

And his order to Arya telling her to run shows what he thought of seriousness of the situation.

Second, having half a wooden sword is still - having a weapon. One that can serve to stab someone through the visor of the helmet if nothing else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And no, he's not Jaquen either.

The part of the Arya chapter which leads up to the last scene with Syrio is all about seeing. You must see with your eyes, Syrio tells her, and this Arya does. Through her we get a final description before she flees of the heavily armoured knight of the kingsguard standing opposite a weaponless Syrio. The emphasis from George is left with this description, and thereby he tricks us into believing that Forel has little chance. But we are not doing what Syrio has just taught Arya, we are seeing with our hearts instead of our eyes. What did we see just before this? With a wooden training sword Syrio takes out five Lannister guardsmen. In no time at all they are all "down, dead or dying". Arya is seeing with her eyes and "she had never seen a man move as fast", and she must have seen a fair deal of fast knights in her short time. Syrio also sees the truth, "You are slow for a knight" he says to Trant. And though Ser Meryn might be a considerable step up from the Lannister guards, we also know that he is hardly considered skilled. Within seconds of their confrontation Syrio has hit him repeatedly with his stick, whilst Trant only manages to hit his weapon, the second blow cutting it in half. This is the last of what we see in that scene. But we know there are five guards lying on the ground. We are explicitly told at the start of the skirmish when the first guard approaches the waterdancer - "The man yanked free his longsword. The stick moved again, blindingly fast. Arya heard a loud crack as the sword went clattering to the stone floor". Now, I find it impossible to believe that a man like Syrio, who has just avoided being hit even once by five guards, could not avoid Trant, weaponless or no, long enough to run, roll, slide, moonwalk over the ground and pick up that sword or any of the others which must be lying there. Sure, again, Trant is more competent than the guards, but if Syrio isn't trying to attack him then the knight isn't going to be harder to avoid for a man so fast than the five guards were, for the short space of time it would take to grab a sword. And once he has a sword I find it likewise impossible to believe, after the description of his dealing with the guards, that Trant could ever land a blow on his body. With a proper sword Syrio would deflect all attacks, and in no time make mince meat out of the weak spots in the knights armour. Any other scenario is just deeply improbable. With the exception of an off screen deus ex machina in favour of Ser Meryn, such as the arrival of more Lannister men, there is simply no way he could win that battle.

But, we know that Meryn survives. So what happend? Syrio tells Arya that the first sword of braavos does not run. Now he might be lying, and simply does run. Or he might be deceiving Arya becaus he isn't the first sword any more, so this would also imply that he is free to run. I don't think this happend though. Imo, he knocks Trant unconscious. After this Meryn makes some excuse to Cersei and is forgiven.

Thats it. Syrio isn't dead! And he's not a bloody faceless man :P

Yeah, ok, well-argued, but if Syrio is still alive then, frankly, I feel cheated. Would GRRM build the whole scene up like that and make us feel it's a tragedy, it's not fair, it's a brave hero dying because of impossible odds, all these things...then only to turn around and tell us no, actually, he's fine, he picked up a sword off the ground, killed Trant - wait, Trant isn't dead - ok, disarmed Trant, and then ran away through a covered corridor and got out disguised as a servant or something. Lame, lame, lame.

And that's why I don't buy your theory. It's possible but it would just be lame. Syrio died to save his protege's life. He's dead: don't cheapen it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than that i have no wish to continue this discussion and waste time explaining obvious things such as why Yoren would not be allowed to take prisoners after the coup.

That's a shame, because I would have liked to hear it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, ok, well-argued, but if Syrio is still alive then, frankly, I feel cheated. Would GRRM build the whole scene up like that and make us feel it's a tragedy, it's not fair, it's a brave hero dying because of impossible odds, all these things...then only to turn around and tell us no, actually, he's fine, he picked up a sword off the ground, killed Trant - wait, Trant isn't dead - ok, disarmed Trant, and then ran away through a covered corridor and got out disguised as a servant or something. Lame, lame, lame.

And that's why I don't buy your theory. It's possible but it would just be lame. Syrio died to save his protege's life. He's dead: don't cheapen it.

Less lame than Brienne "said a word". I think the cliffhangers are manipulative and uncalled for. But it's George - you take the bad with the good.

BTW, Syrio didn't save Arya's life; Trant was there to capture her as a noble hostage, not to kill her. It's arguable that being a hostage would have been safer than what befell Arya.

Also, Syrio never got around to taking a sword from the ground. He sacrificed his stick to overbalance Trant and put him on the floor; and Trant, coward that he is, promptly beat feet for reinforcements, his ignominious retreat protected by his armor, realizing that if Syrio got a real sword he was dead meat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Other-in-Law

This "bravo culture" that controls Syrio's actions is OiL's invention - not merely unsupported speculation, it's contrary to a logical interpretation of the textual facts.

Also, Syrio never got around to taking a sword from the ground. He sacrificed his stick to overbalance Trant and put him on the floor; and Trant, coward that he is, promptly beat feet for reinforcements, his ignominious retreat protected by his armor, realizing that if Syrio got a real sword he was dead meat.

How absolutely and disgustingly hypocritical. To claim that Bravos kill each other is supposedly "invention", despite textual evidence such as that "bravos slew each other in their (Courtezans) names" , and yet the one who claims this brazenly fabricates nonsense out of whole cloth and presents it it as the the truth. There is absolutely NO support for for this claim of Syrio deliberately causing Trant to overbalance or any of that. Pure bullshit, as usual.

Of course this is someone who once tired to claim that Syrio's wooden practice sword would miraculously be more capable of knocking a helmeted Trant out AFTER it was shortened and both lost weight and tip velocity. Whether that claim was the result of preternatural ignorance or merely mundane trolling is entirely beside the point...there's no point in taking such posts the least bit seriously.

One hopes that no family members of military servicemen, police officers, or firefighters who died while performing their duties doesn't read this thread

and discover, by shocking dichotomy, that they must have been "suicidal". It's not inconceivable that the notion might prove offensive.

This topic has been debated so many times that it's pointless to continue with it, imo. The past links show that it's all been covered, however much some people pretend that it hasn't and resurrect for their usual trolling purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sigh. People pick up a thread of conjecture unmoored by the text and run wild with it. Of course Syrio is proud, but from that you have deduced that he's suicidal - that his pride requires him to compulsively take on insurmountable odds? What text shows he's unhappy teaching water dancing to a 9 yo? What text shows he believes he has little left to live for? What text hints he's looking for a place to die gloriously?

The text doesn't give enough information one way or another. We don't know anything about Syrio the man and his life outside of the books. We don't even know how he spent his time when he wasn't training Arya. As such, we're left to interpret the character based on our imagination. You're doing much the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that I agree with Other-in-Law in this instance. I do believe Syrio to be dead as I do not see how he could have survived the situation with Trant, judging from when "we" last saw him in the books..

I have read this thread and find the theories of him surviving to be interesting hovewer they have not convinced me and I stand by my first impression I got when I read the books, that is that he was killed by Trant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course this is someone who once tired to claim that Syrio's wooden practice sword would miraculously be more capable of knocking a helmeted Trant out AFTER it was shortened and both lost weight and tip velocity.

Not to defend AAF's thesis, but a shorter weapon is advantageous if you can get inside the useful range of the opponent's weapon. Letting the stick be cut might have been a part of the tactic - lose reach, gain sharp stick - but I don't know if anyone could pull it off for real.

Don't think he survived though. I'd be kind of disappointed if he did, but very few characters since the first book have tended to stay dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think his refusal to confirm the matter, as well as

having that sailor say something snide about baby Aegon maybe also being alive (in the Davos Spoiler Chapter)

, is him just having a grand old time fucking with fans.

If you're referring to unpublished material, spoiler tag it. - m

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is that tiny sliver of possibility that he's alive, I've not read any convincing explanation as to how he gets out of his predicament.

I think he came to a perfectly good end and I'd only hope if that isn't the case that the answer is a lot more interesting than 'Syrio is a Faceless Man whose been training Arya all along'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to defend AAF's thesis, but a shorter weapon is advantageous if you can get inside the useful range of the opponent's weapon. Letting the stick be cut might have been a part of the tactic - lose reach, gain sharp stick - but I don't know if anyone could pull it off for real.

Don't think he survived though. I'd be kind of disappointed if he did, but very few characters since the first book have tended to stay dead.

No splintered training weapon is going to anything to a trained knight. Syrio is dead and gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No splintered training weapon is going to anything to a trained knight. Syrio is dead and gone.

Especially not when he is wearing plate like Trant was..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly possible that Syrio somehow survived the fight with Trant, but I don't think he did. I think that for once something is as it appears. He died to give Arya the opportunity to escape. Remember, he doesn't know that the Starks are screwed at this point. For all he knows, they are trying to take Arya to use as leverage against Ned and by giving her time to escape she'll be able to get back to Ned and they'll be fine. To me, the most convincing evidence that Syrio lost the fight is that Trant is alive. I guess it's possible, but I just don't see Syrio tripping Trant and then running away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×