Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning

[Shryke]

Well, I don't know if anyone else has been following this game. It's being made by the same guys who made DAOC. And it's using a similar PVP system, and so on.

Anyway, [url="http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/239/feature/2041/page/2"]BIG news[/url] out today.

[b]Capitol Cities:[/b] 4 of them are being cut for now. Release will only have Empire and Chaos Capitals in. The rest are to come "at a later date".

[b]Classes:[/b] 4 classes are being cut. 2 tanks (Blackguard and Knight of the Blazing Sun) and 2 Melee DPS (Choppa and Hammerer). No word on if they'll ever return.

I keep thinking this is some elaborate, badly timed April Fools joke. Just ... wow.

[Rhom]

So much for the next great WoW killer...

Dead before it gets released.

[Mister Manticore]

Well, better part of it done right, than all of it done half-ass.

I'm surprised at losing the Choppa though, I would think that's an iconic class of the Greenskins.

However, I wouldn't take this as a particularly bad sign myself. Decisions change, you learn things (heck, look how many changes WOW has had...imagine how many came up during their initial development, and then consider how many the game as has since release...), and if you're lucky, you make things better without too much whining.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1436409' date='Jul 11 2008, 10.16']Well, better part of it done right, than all of it done half-ass.

I'm surprised at losing the Choppa though, I would think that's an iconic class of the Greenskins.[/quote]

The classes are gonna hurt more then the cities imo. There's only 1 type of Orc now. And the Empire has no Armored Class anymore either.

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1436411' date='Jul 11 2008, 10.18']The classes are gonna hurt more then the cities imo. There's only 1 type of Orc now. And the Empire has no Armored Class anymore either.[/quote]

Really? That doesn't seem right at all. But I must confess, I've not been paying much attention to the game in development. Looking at it, it seems there are unique classes for each race. Can't say I think that's the best way to do things in an MMO. Oh well, guess they were just taking from their source materials.

[Gus]

I really loved the idea of the Choppa but isn't it a bit too close to the Marauder in style. I guess they felt the both classes to be a little too close and merged the cool stuff into one class. I was really looking forward too running a Black orc and choppa plus healer trio. my vision was that the black orc would go in head but the poor dwarf and hold him up while the Choppa does his stuff, I guess it will work with a Marauder in the same way. If they got the leveling, graphicsguild and class aspects done I think it is the right move to cut what they are not done or satisfied with and release. As long as the things that are in the release is polished and ready.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1436436' date='Jul 11 2008, 10.33']Really? That doesn't seem right at all. But I must confess, I've not been paying much attention to the game in development. Looking at it, it seems there are unique classes for each race. Can't say I think that's the best way to do things in an MMO. Oh well, guess they were just taking from their source materials.[/quote]

It was the only way to go really, without making the classes really generic (ie - fighter, Magic-user, etc.)

-There was 24 classes, 4 for each race.
-Each race had 1 of each archetype (Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Healer).
-Each Achetype had 3 different .. "flavours" I guess. So there was a melee healer, a heal/nuke healer and an overall healer. Or magic tank, aura tank, physical tank.
- And each class was paired with another class on the opposite faction that had a similar mechanic. (ie - Archmages and Shamans or Zealots and Rune Priests).

The thing is, they've cut one pairing out (Choppa and Hammerer were both mirror classes), but they've removed 2 different types of tanks (KotBS was paired with Chosen, who are still in, and Blackguard were paired with Swordsmasters, who are also still in). Which means Order has no buffing tank and Destruction has no magic tank anymore. Plus, 2 of the races now lack a tank and must pull them from another races zone.

It also upsets the racial pairing balance, since it's balanced around the 4 archetypes. Melee kill ranged, who kill tanks, who kill melee (or something like that).

It will work I'm sure, but won't be as elegant as before.

I'm also thinking some of these classes got dropped because they're gonna completely overhauled or scrapped, and you can't do that while your live, cause it really pisses off the people playing that class.

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1436450' date='Jul 11 2008, 10.43']It was the only way to go really, without making the classes really generic (ie - fighter, Magic-user, etc.)[/quote]

That seems to have worked for most every other MMORPG in existence. But hey, you want to customize by race? Have the basic classes, but with specific feats or abilities only learnable by particular races.

The way it's described though, comes across more as the way the tabletop game played...with each army having its own specific units within the given roles. Fair enough for a strategy game, but I just don't know if it's right for an MMO.

[quote]It will work I'm sure, but won't be as elegant as before.[/quote]

Elegance and Warhammer do not go together. They just don't.

[quote]I'm also thinking some of these classes got dropped because they're gonna completely overhauled or scrapped, and you can't do that while your live, cause it really pisses off the people playing that class.[/quote]

This is very true, but how far are they from release anyway?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1436590' date='Jul 11 2008, 12.20']That seems to have worked for most every other MMORPG in existence. But hey, you want to customize by race? Have the basic classes, but with specific feats or abilities only learnable by particular races.

The way it's described though, comes across more as the way the tabletop game played...with each army having its own specific units within the given roles. Fair enough for a strategy game, but I just don't know if it's right for an MMO.[/quote]

The classes were comparable enough. And Warhammer is very lore heavy. So Orcs shouldn't fight like humans, and so on.


[quote]Elegance and Warhammer do not go together. They just don't.[/quote]

No, but elegance and game balance do.

[quote]This is very true, but how far are they from release anyway?[/quote]

Their about to start Guild Beta. Release is liek October.

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1436632' date='Jul 11 2008, 12.39']The classes were comparable enough. And Warhammer is very lore heavy. So Orcs shouldn't fight like humans, and so on.[/quote]

Not saying otherwise, but I'd have chosen a different way to go about it myself.

[quote]No, but elegance and game balance do.[/quote]

Warhammer's been going fine for 20+ years without either one. I don't think that'll change. :P

[quote]Their about to start Guild Beta. Release is liek October.[/quote]

Is that factoring in both GW and Mythic's delay rates?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1436700' date='Jul 11 2008, 13.08']Warhammer's been going fine for 20+ years without either one. I don't think that'll change. :P[/quote]

Table-top =/= MMO

The TT game has always been completely without balance. Or all that good gameplay.

The MMO needs it though.

[quote]Is that factoring in both GW and Mythic's delay rates?[/quote]

Yup. The cuts are part of that. Cities weren't up to snuff, and were cut cxause they wouldn't be ready for release.

This things already been through years of delays, but it's finally coming out.

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1436714' date='Jul 11 2008, 13.13']Table-top =/= MMO

The TT game has always been completely without balance. Or all that good gameplay.

The MMO needs it though.[/quote]

Need? Not sure about that (WOW is hardly balanced, and it's going strong), but will it actually have balance or elegance?

I sincerely doubt it. The roots matter, and with GW, I know that's no source of balance, and while I've never played DAOC, I have heard it has had balance problems too, so I don't think I'll rely on them either.

This doesn't mean the game won't be playable or fun, but I won't be surprised if they do end up with several broken things on release.

And if it's out by October, I'll be much surprised.

[Anatole Kuragin]

What does your prejudice against WH have to do with this game? It's not like the guy that made the stats for the TT races is having anything to do with it.

Dawn of War kicked ass.

[Kalbear]

Right, because all the other MMOs have been so severely balanced on release. Balance in any game happens after a ton of players beat the shit out of it with shovels and clawhammers. It doesn't happen on opening day. On opening day, you will find at least one class has some "I win" button that literally requires no skill and cannot be beaten by any other class. It'll get nerfed soon, then they'll find a slightly more subtle version. Certain parts of the game will not actually be possible by classes that should be able to do it at the start, and certain specs will be outright useless in every form.

All games that have a lot of variables get this wrong. What's more important is that they get it right as time goes on. Culling some of the things that weren't working is a good sign; it gives room for expansion and it shows that they're committed to releasing instead of tuning in a vacuum. I still won't play the game; pvp isn't what I like. But it's a good sign for the health of the game.

[Shryke]

(Reasonable) Reactions seem to be divided between:

"It's good to cut features that aren't working well."

and

"I don't think I'm getting this anymore cause the class I want is gone."

and

"Cutting major features this late makes me nervous about the game. I'll wait and see"

Unreasonable ones? Well, you've all got the internet, I'm sure you know what a fanboy/anti-fanboy shitstorm looks like.

[Cuellar]

Cutting shit this late scares me bigtime. That means they are having serious problems and need to amputate the limb... and serious changes to teh overall game (races/classes) means serious changes to gameplay in a pvp game, which means release will not be balanced very well at all...

I'll still probably get it, but this is a major red flag. They should have realized 6 months ago that shit wasn't going to be complete, and axed it then.

[Knight of the Wineskin]

Orks without dakka just ain't right.

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1436824' date='Jul 11 2008, 14.25']What does your prejudice against WH have to do with this game?[/quote]

When you've played something, had experience with it, and so have a number of people you know (some for decades), it's not prejudice when you come to an opinion about it. Rather the opposite.

[quote]Dawn of War kicked ass.[/quote]

Dawn of War was made by Relic, not Mythic anyway, so what's *that* got to do with WHO?

:dunno:

[quote name='Knight of the Wineskin' post='1436941' date='Jul 11 2008, 15.33']Orks without dakka just ain't right.[/quote]

Let's declare a WAAAGH!!!!

Anyway, me I'm going to wait a few months and see how WHO stands up on its own. I've got no hurry to be play the game first, no matter when it comes out.

[Commodore]

I am in the Warhammer beta (all I can say with the NDA).

I am looking forward to DAoC Origins more than any mmo.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Intercept]

[quote name='Commodore' post='1437297' date='Jul 12 2008, 00.32']I am in the Warhammer beta (all I can say with the NDA).

I am looking forward to DAoC Origins more than any mmo.

Draw your own conclusions.[/quote]

What's DAoC Origins?