Worst mother in Westeros

[Robb19]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1438115' date='Jul 13 2008, 10.43']Technically, Sybell Westerling never forced Jeyne to abort, she only gave her the pill, while saying it was some fortifiant. Not even a foetus killed. Still pretty awful, of course.[/quote]

Ahhh. Right. Sorry about that. I still think that's a really crappy thing of a mother to do, though. I still don't think it's Lysa or Cersei in a runaway.

Here's the thing though, in all of the characters (save like Gregor Clegane), it can be argued that they're doing things badly with good intentions. Cersei in FFC starts to get pretty effed up and only does things out of vanity and spite for her father, but that's the furthest we've seen anyone go, right? Can't the case be made that most every decision that the characters make is a little justified especially within their social and environmental context?

So I think if we're calling for a Worst anything, there really isn't going to be a worst, it'll just be opinions.

[King Bronn]

[quote name='Maia' post='1438690' date='Jul 14 2008, 03.11']IMHO, that person is Ned. He didn't explain their situation to Sansa, he didn't break the betrothal after that terrible episode in the Riverlands and tried to force Sansa to testify against her betrothed. I dare say that Sansa would have been much more receptive to the notion of not marrying Joff at this point.
But no, Ned intended to keep the deal and Sansa was left to accommodate herself with her future - which she did by absolving her future in-laws. We may not like it, but it was actually the most practical reaction, since it looked like she'd have to spend the rest of her life with them and not Ned and Arya. Women in that society are supposed to cleave to the family they married into and too much loyalty to their birth family is frowned upon - by Ned himself in particular.[/quote]
Thank you! It's so refreshing to see a realistic interpretation of that series of events.

[quote name='oldnan' post='1438745' date='Jul 14 2008, 05.21']Ned did her best to get out of that situation but she insisted on staying in. Can't say I was too sympathetic when the KG beat her, she paid the price for her actions and I'm looking forward to what happens next.[/quote]
Are you saying you condone beating children bloody when they disobey their parents? Because that's essentially what happened.

[L'Sana]

[quote name='oldnan' post='1438745' date='Jul 14 2008, 06.21']I think Ned did fine with his explanation. Instead of behaving like a normal kid who didn't get their way she went to CERSEI. That was uncalled for IMO, she could've protested by not eating, etc. I know she was trained to be a lady but most obeyed their father for good or ill.

Ned did her best to get out of that situation but she insisted on staying in. Can't say I was too sympathetic when the KG beat her, she paid the price for her actions and I'm looking forward to what happens next.[/quote]

Really? I don't think Ned ever said [i]anything[/i] to Sansa until the scene where he told the girls they were going home, and he didn't really try to explain things to her then. I'll reread the scene, but as I recall, Ned pretty much said, "Your betrothal is broken, and you're going home. Why? Because I said so."

[SkyPirate]

[quote name='King Bronn' post='1438946' date='Jul 14 2008, 17.36']Are you saying you condone beating children bloody when they disobey their parents? Because that's essentially what happened.[/quote]
Ser Meryn wasn't even her mother, but some unknown dude as well. I just can't understand anyone approving of him beating Sansa. I'm sure of the fact that nobody in the book does (Jaime doesn't).

Having said that, I do think Sansa wasn't very smart in going to Cersei (I'm saying this as a Sansa fan). In one of the previous chapters Sansa thinks to herself that Lady's death is Cersei's fault, yet she still goes to her. Not that I think this has the great effect others seem to ascribe to it ("ZOMG, Ned's death is Sansa's fault!"). But still, a bit weird.

[Szar]

Ned tells Sansa he's sending them home to Winterfell for their own safety.

[quote]'Father's mouth twitched strangely. "Sansa, I'm not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I'm sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting."
[...]
"Father, I only just now remembered, I can't go away, I'm to marry Prince Joffrey." She tried to smile bravely for him. "I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies."
"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."'[/quote]

[redxavier]

Precisely, this 'Sansa's betrayal is really Ned's fault' thing has been regurgitated so many times now, usually from Sansa fans, and yet it's patently false, and sorry to say, certainly not a realistic interpretation of what happens. At this point in the story, her going to Cersei has absolutely nothing to do with her not being aware of the danger, it's her wilfully ignoring it and hoping for a happy white wedding with her perceived Prince Charming. Part of Sansa's development in the story is her growing up, to attempt to deflate her own culpability by assigning blame to Ned lessens the impact of that character arc.

But Catelyn, as much as I loathe the simple-minded woman, can hardly be called a bad mother for Sansa.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='redxavier' post='1439147' date='Jul 14 2008, 19.36']But Catelyn, as much as I loathe the [b]simple-minded woman[/b], can hardly be called a bad mother for Sansa.[/quote]:rofl: That's rather harsh for you to say that 99% of the westerosi population, Tyrion and all northern lords included, is below simple minded.

[Wouter]

Great post from Maia, I fully agree.
As for Sansa running to Cersei, Ned had already told her what he was going to do anyway; the betrayal that counted was littlefinger, who sold the gold cloaks to Cersei, when Ned thought he had them in his pocket. That made Sansa's move moot for the most part (LF would have turned on Ned anyway, when he would attempt to make his move); what changed was that she and Arya and Jeyne failed to escape, which they might have otherwise.

Sybel Westerling/Spicer knew that she was selling her daughter out to the Lannisters, that's the terrible thing she did to her daughter (in addition to the anticonception thing). She pretended to give her blessing to Robb and Jeyne, while plotting with Tywin behind their backs. At least Cersei and Lysa still love their children to a degree even if their education is very bad, but Sybell doesn't seem to give a damn about her daughters' wellbeing, other than perhaps purely in the physical sense.

[Artanaro]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1439350' date='Jul 14 2008, 13.37']Sybel Westerling/Spicer knew that she was [b]selling her daughter out to the Lannisters[/b], that's the terrible thing she did to her daughter (in addition to the anticonception thing).[/quote]

If Jeyne gets a quality marriage (which she may not have gotten otherwise), and the protection and wealth of the Iron Throne, what was so wrong with Sybel whoring her daughter? Her daughter may very well lead a better life, because of it. Also, her daughter still had a choice. Sybel might know she'd make the choice, but Jeyne still chooses to sleep with Robb.

Artanaro

[Wouter]

What's wrong with whoring your daughter? Everything. That's not what a mother should do.

And it's not about Jeyne sleeping with Robb, that was probably her choice (allthough Sybell might have encouraged it - we don't know) - but selling him and her out to Tywin at the same time. Jeyne loved Robb, and Sybell was plotting with Tywin, to eventually get him killed (even as she probably didn't know exactly what Tywin was planning). If your mother would be conspiring to get your husband or wife killed (allthough (s)he is perfectly good for you and courteous to her), would you think she's a good mother?

As to Jeyne leading a better life, I think suicide is more likely to her than that.

[Artanaro]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1439659' date='Jul 14 2008, 15.48']What's wrong with whoring your daughter? Everything. That's not what a mother should do.[/quote]
Every noble daughter in Westeros is whored out. Lysa had to marry Jon Arryn. Margaery has gone from Renly, to Joffrey to Tommen. Even in today's world, parents manipulate their children and their children's future. Perhaps some whoring is acceptable and some isn't. I merely consider Jeyne's interests. She was an idiot, getting involved with a betrothed traitor lord. Sybel saved her, from lacking any common sense. :D

[quote name='Wouter' post='1439659' date='Jul 14 2008, 15.48']And it's not about Jeyne sleeping with Robb, that was probably her choice (allthough Sybell might have encouraged it - we don't know) - but selling him and her out to Tywin at the same time.[/quote]
Jeyne committed treason against the Iron Throne by entering into an agreement with a known traitor. She is lucky that her mother is looking out for her future interests.

[quote name='Wouter' post='1439659' date='Jul 14 2008, 15.48']If your mother would be conspiring to get your husband or wife killed (allthough (s)he is perfectly good for you and courteous to her), would you think she's a good mother?[/quote]
Sybel saved her daughter from a fate at the Red Wedding. Robb was a traitor, based on Jeyne's house allegiance. I think she's an awesome mother. :D

Artanaro

[Paxter]

[quote name='Artanaro' post='1439672' date='Jul 15 2008, 05.56']I think she's an awesome mother.[/quote]

OK, so Sybell managed to secure a good future for her daughter. That was a good "end".
But what about the means to this end?
- forcing her daughter to marry someone (or "whoring your daughter" as some boarders have eloquenty phrased it)
- then forcing her daughter to betray her husband (whom it seems, from Jaime's seventh chapter in AFFC, Jeyne truly loved) by ensuring that she did not become pregnant.

The question is, of course, whether these (reasonably extreme) means justify the good end. This is a subjective question and one to which nobody on this board can provide a definitive answer. Therefore, the ultimate question of how good a mother Sybell is is very difficult to answer.

My personal opinion is that Sybell is a terrible mother because in addition to the above we know that Sybell:
- physically forced her daughter to give up the crown that Robb gave her (causing actual physical harm to Jeyne)
- not only threatens to but actually moves to slap her daughter in front of Jaime (luckily the valiant Jaime intervened and sent Jeyne out of the room)

Sybell's complete lack of compassion and her willingness to inflict physical and mental harm on her daughter, IMO, demonstrates that she has poor maternal instincts and she deserves to be close to the bottom of the scrapheap when it comes to the worst mothers in Westeros.

Of course, Sybell turns into a much a better mother IMO if the whole scene in front of Jaime was an act carefully orchestrated to deceive the Lannisters (as has been theorised: [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=24294&hl=jayne)"]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showt...4&hl=jayne)[/url]

[KoriBlade]

I'd say Lysa Arynn is the worst mother though there are circumstances with her that may explain it, mainly i think the abortion she had (forced on her) probably had some psychological effect on her causing her to be overprotective of robert, add to that the fact that he was weak and sickly just compounded the problem. (Though she shouldn't have been still breast-feeding him at 6).

Cersei certainly didn't do a good job with joffery but Tommen and Myrcella came out ok, their not monsters by any means. Perhaps their was just something inherently unpleasant in him to begin with.

I simply don't get how Cat could possibly be on the list.

[Lady Blackfish]

Hahahah, wow, Sansa's going to Cersei is an example of bad parenting, huh? Please, people. For the record, I'm with Maia. Really, Septa Mordane was there to teach Sansa and Arya embroidery, manners, reading and writing, etc. Politics was not her job, that would probably be a product of how much the parents wanted the kids to know. And [i]Ned[/i] is the parent we actually see telling Mordane to take Sansa away from all the intrigues at the court, even though he was still going along with the idea of her becoming queen. On the other hand, we see Cat pushing Robb to face ugly truths. If anyone can tell me a reason why Catelyn should be solely responsible for How Sansa Turned Out to the exclusion of Ned that isn't about Sansa looking like her, preferring her gods, and having her hair brushed by her from time to time (!), I'd like to hear it. WRT something said earlier Ned actually says to Arya that both he [i]and[/i] her mother wanted Septa Mordane to teach the girls how to be ladies. Also for the record, I think both he and Cat were very good parents, they made errors but that's because they, like most people in the real world that aren't products of overly deterministic imaginations, can't see the future. Ask any parent how unclear decisions in parenting can be. All of their children were well-adjusted people, and they had their big issues after being without their parents, and they all actually missed them. What does that say?

The obvious answer here IMO is Lysa Arryn. Then Cersei, then arguably Mellario and Sybelle. Olenna and Melessa, no. Mace is a little slow perhaps but that might be more the fault of the student than the teacher, as it doesn't seem Olenna does poorly with a charge willing to listen. Melessa, not sure what options she would have had, it came off to me like she was the one person that Sam actually got any love from at all.

[Silverstar]

C'mon, LB, doncha know that Cat is the source of all that is Evil and Wrong in Westeros, therefore she just [i]has[/i] to be the ultimate worst mother ever? I mean, if she's not top of the list, then that might just possibly mean she's not the worst character ever in existence ;)

I'm with LB and Maia. And I'm voting for Lysa with Cersei a very close second.

[Maia]

[quote name='oldnan' post='1438745' date='Jul 14 2008, 07.21']I think Ned did fine with his explanation.[/quote]

IMHO, he didn't. Szar kindly quoted what he said and there is zero explanation as to why he decided to suddenly call off the marriage when the terrible episode in the Riverlands didn't cause him to do so. Yes, he did mention the attack , but nothing else about the danger and complexity of their situation. Again, his talk with Arya was much more convincing and informative.
Not to mention that preparations for the girls departure were hardly secret. I am not sure how Varys and/or LF could have missed them, regardless of Sansa.

[quote]Instead of behaving like a normal kid who didn't get their way she went to CERSEI.[/quote]

Whom Ned and Cat selected to be Sansa's mother-in-law and Ned didn't change his mind even after the tragedy on the Trident. Should Sansa have understood that her loving father fully intended to give her into power of an evil witch until other considerations changed his mind? Again, Ned intended Sansa to _marry_ into this family. As any survivor she tried to adapt to the situation and see them in a positive light. Not that it was difficult with all the pretty exterior and the pomp. And Ned did nothing to caution her or teach her necessary political skills - and was irritated by Mordane's efforts in the latter direction.


[quote]That was uncalled for IMO, she could've protested by not eating, etc. I know she was trained to be a lady but most obeyed their father for good or ill.[/quote]

Sansa has watched Arya disobeying orders and doing whatever she wished for months - behavior which Ned abetted and rewarded. Is it any wonder that when Sansa really wanted something, she did the same?

Rexavier:

[quote]Part of Sansa's development in the story is her growing up, to attempt to deflate her own culpability by assigning blame to Ned lessens the impact of that character arc.[/quote]

Ned _is_ to blame. He fully explained his intentions to Cersei before ensuring that his daughters were safe _and_ he did a really bad job at parenting his daughters during the whole trip and sojourn in KL. One has to wonder what he was thinking taking them along at all, if he never intended to ensure that they'd profit and learn from their exposure to the court.
And how he could continue with his plans after the events on the Trident, when it should have been evident for him that at least Arya should be sent back home ASAP due to bad feelings between her, the crown prince and the queen, with all attendant dangers and Sansa's betrothal should be re-thought, etc.


Re: Sybell Westerling. My opinion would depend on whether she pushed Jeyne and Robb together or not. If she did, then she is pretty evil.
If she didn't, then she is just a desperate and rather unprincipled survivor, who, while between the rock and the hard place, tried to ensure safety of her family. She does have 3 other children in addition to Jeyne, after all, although Ser Raynald may have died in the Red Wedding. In any case, it was much kinder to give Jeyne infertility potions than to risk that her pregnant belly would be cut open or that her infant would be killed before her eyes. Westerlings were Tywin's own vassals and they knew that unlike all the other rebels, there wasn't any hope of mercy or accommodation for them. They had to "earn" a pardon for consorting with the enemy.

[Maia]

Sorry, connection hiccup.

[Maia]

Sorry, connection hiccup.

[Maia]

Sorry, connection hiccup.

[redxavier]

[quote name='Maia' post='1440594' date='Jul 15 2008, 10.26']Ned _is_ to blame. He fully explained his intentions to Cersei before ensuring that his daughters were safe _and_ he did a really bad job at parenting his daughters during the whole trip and sojourn in KL. One has to wonder what he was thinking taking them along at all, if he never intended to ensure that they'd profit and learn from their exposure to the court.[/quote]

No, Cersei herself disagrees with you on this point - Sansa revealing the plan is said to have been a boon to Cersei, allowing her to get the upper hand by moving quickly.

Again, the whole point of Sansa is that she's this naive and willfully blissful girl who's petulent disobediance played a part in causing the downfall of her father. To dilute this betrayal by attempting to make her not a petulent and willfully ignorant naive girl, and instead blame her dad for not doing such and such, undermines her entire character development. It's like blaming Ned for Bran's fall.

Also, you seem to forget that at this point Ned was going home as well and Robert was alive. Cersei was powerless at the point that Ned went to her, her sole influence derived from being the King's wife (who hated her and was loathed to grant her much). Robert's death is what changes the game and Ned is unfortunately unable to predict her very quick surpremacy that happens mere hours after the King's death (mainly because he's abandoned by the Baratheon boys and Catelyn's friend stabs him in the back).

[quote name='Maia' post='1440594' date='Jul 15 2008, 10.26']And how he could continue with his plans after the events on the Trident, when it should have been evident for him that at least Arya should be sent back home ASAP due to bad feelings between her, the crown prince and the queen, with all attendant dangers and Sansa's betrothal should be re-thought, etc.[/quote]

You make far too much meal of the Trident incident and your perspective seems somewhat coloured by knowledge of what happens later - specifically Robert's [i]premature [/i]death. These are young children whose fathers were like brothers, you assume that Arya and Joffrey would remain implacable enemies or remain in constant contact beyond a few years. Children have a great capacity to let bygones be bygones than adults. Indeed, in KL itself Arya does nothing to further antagonise the Lannisters and there's not one reference to a fight between her and Joffrey or the Queen. Furthermore, that Joffrey and Sansa do reach a reconciliation later on is proof that the bad blood wouldn't have lasted, especially under the eyes of their fathers in the 15-20 years minimum that Robert would still have been around had he not been murdered. As for the hearing that you always bring up, Sansa was never to marry a King with all the power of an Aerys to savage her at his whim. He is only able to have his guards beat her because she's alone. You really think that Ned and Robert would have stood by whilst Cersei and Joffrey made life difficult for his wife?

What's more, Sansa perceives Joffrey to be this Prince Charming and of great personal nobility, so why is she afraid to give testimony against him, testimony that would be the truth and therefore a central tenet in the philosophy of such a noble prince? The reason is that she already knows that Joffrey's a vile bully with delusions of grandeur, and certainly no Prince Aemon, but she's wilfully ignored this because she wants that pretty white wedding and to have beautiful babies. This same selfish head in the clouds attitude is what propels her to ignore her father's words and go to Cersei.

Personally I find Sansa to be interesting and well written precisely because of these flaws. I dislike her for her weakness, both physical, moral and of spirit, but GRRM masterfully works our sympathy in ACOK such that we do come to forgive her for this the betrayal. Please let's not undermine the drama here by pretending Sansa's not at fault.

The ironic point of all this? Sansa only went to Cersei because she was a mother substitute. It's therefore Catelyn's fault for not being there! :P