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Worst mother in Westeros


Paxter

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While I disagree that it's Ned's fault with regards to Sansa going to Cersei, I do not believe she [i]wilfully[/i] ignored Joffrey's sadistic tendencies -- she [i]represses[/i] it. There's a great difference. Joffrey obviously has the ability to be charming when he wants to. Take into account that Sansa is very sheltered and has an utterly naïve world-view. She cannot imagine that Joff can be as vile as Arya describes, for the only princes she has ever heard of would never do such things.

The exact same thing applies to Cersei. She cannot really be terrible, for she's a [i]queen[/i], and queens are supposed to look out for their people, and Cersei is utterly charming when she wants to be.

It's rather normal for people to trust charming people. Unfortunately, charm does not imply any nice qualities what-so-ever.
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[quote name='redxavier' post='1440725' date='Jul 15 2008, 14.57']No, Cersei herself disagrees with you on this point - Sansa revealing the plan is said to have been a boon to Cersei, allowing her to get the upper hand by moving quickly.[/quote]
Cersei is quite often wrong about things. In this case, she may have thought that she managed to buy out littlefinger because Sansa warned her - but if Sansa hadn't done so, Littlefinger would still have acted as he did (probably would have come to Cersei himself). It was his decision to act against Ned, and this decision was what had the power to make or break Ned and Joffrey/Cersei. Littlefinger probably left her thinking it was all her doing, when he was holding the reins firmly all the time, playing both Cersei and Ned for his own means.
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How can it be anyone other then Cersei Baratheon (Lannister)

We all saw what Joff become due to her raising him, and the other two are only like what they are her due to her ignoring them in favour of Joff.
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[quote name='Wouter' post='1441386' date='Jul 15 2008, 20.45']Cersei is quite often wrong about things. In this case, she may have thought that she managed to buy out littlefinger because Sansa warned her - but if Sansa hadn't done so, Littlefinger would still have acted as he did (probably would have come to Cersei himself).[/quote]Actually, if you reread, she is [i]purposefully lying[/i] to Tyrion, because she does not want to talk about the reason Ned confronted her. Sansa's "betrayal" is not nearly as critical as she makes it sound.

Look at the events:
1) Ned gives her an ultimatum
2) The ultimatum is sent and expires before the girls are sent out of King's Landing
3) Ned takes action [i]before[/i] the boat is scheduled to sail

What did Sansa add to Ned's stupidity here?
- Forewarning? no, Ned warned Cersei before
- Timing? No, Ned trying to depose her is timing enough, and Sansa would have been captured like Arya nearly was, even if she had not gone to Cersei.

But since talking about Ned's warning would raise very embarrassing questions, it's way more convenient to make it sound like it was only Sansa that warned her of everything.

Of course, the actual responsibility of the whole thing is irrelevant, Sansa's action do not change, and I don't think we could judge how well children are raised depending on the result of their actions. Still not getting how a teenager trying to stay with her crush or eloping in secret and against the wish of her parents shows bad parenting, though. Especially when noone actually told her why she was sent away, or what would happen beside being sent home.
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You make very good points (especially about Ned taking action before the boat, with his daughters supposedly on it, had sailed!), Errant Bard, I agree with your reasoning. In any case, Sansa's disobedience was not that out of the ordinary for a 11/12-year old girl, and it didn't have near the impact that many think it had.
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[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1441423' date='Jul 15 2008, 14.19']Actually, if you reread, she is [i]purposefully lying[/i] to Tyrion, because she does not want to talk about the reason Ned confronted her. Sansa's "betrayal" is not nearly as critical as she makes it sound.[/quote]

You know, that quote always seemed so out of place to me, but I just couldn't understand why Cersei said something that seemed so out there. But you are completely right, she was brazenly lying. Because, what "plans" could Sansa betray? Only that she and Arya were being sent home - but Cersei and her associates would have had to be blind and deaf not to notice, as the preparations for their departure weren't in the least secret. Well, maybe a couple of members of the household would have had a little better chances of escape. OTOH:

1. Lancel already had been given fortified wine. I.e. the real trigger for Robert's murder was Jaime's assault on Ned. It took Ned several days to come around and Robert was already away hunting, presumably accompanied by his squires.

2. Ned healed up a little and promised to denounce Cersei to Robert when the latter returned from the hunt. I.e. time-window for Cersei's action wasn't determined by the girls departure at all, but by Robert's return.

3. LF went over to Cercei with his 6K Goldcloaks.

4. Ned didn't intend to leave KL with his daughters, he intended to stay until he could hand over the reins to Stannis.

So, what's Sansa's role in all of this? I presume that _she_ may believe herself guilty of what happened once she is in the mind frame to look back - OTOH she does know by now that Ned wasn't killed because he wanted to rescind her engagement or to send his daughters home. But in the end, Sansa's contribution to this disaster was very minor, compared with Ned's own, not to mention that of various villains.
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[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1441423' date='Jul 15 2008, 13.19']But since talking about Ned's warning would raise very embarrassing questions, it's way more convenient to make it sound like it was only Sansa that warned her of everything.[/quote]

I often come to this board looking for major revelations, but rarely found any until now. That makes perfect sense, and well done, Errant Bard. I always wondered about that comment to, but never put two and two together.

Artanaro
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Actually I was thinking of Cersei's POV chapter in AFFC, whereupon learning that Selyse is a Tyrell spy (I think, but perhaps it's one of Taena's revelations about Margaery) she comments, forgive me for paraphrasing, that "no-one had given her something so sweet since the Stark girl had come to her to reveal her father's plans".

And, again, people seem to be forgetting why Ned gives that ultimatum. He's attempting to save her from the King, who is still fully alive and hasn't had the accident yet. Also, people are also forgetting the real sequence of events here. Ned is sending the girls away not because he's moving against Cersei, indeed, that has nothing to with it. He's sending them back to Winterfell because he's going to leave his post as Hand of the King and return to the North himself after he's sorted out a few things. The danger is [i]Jaime [/i]Lannister at this point, which is why they're leaving by boat and not by land. At the moment of Robert's death, Ned hasn't been able to send his girls away yet, but he must still act in the aftermath regardless of their safety. Not acting would be even more dangerous.
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[quote name='redxavier' post='1442418' date='Jul 16 2008, 09.41']Actually I was thinking of Cersei's POV chapter in AFFC, whereupon learning that Selyse is a Tyrell spy (I think, but perhaps it's one of Taena's revelations about Margaery) she comments, forgive me for paraphrasing, that "no-one had given her something so sweet since the Stark girl had come to her to reveal her father's plans".[/quote]
Cersei has a track record of bending the truth even in her own head. She does it all over the place in AFfC. My favourite is her blaming Margaery on having to torture the Blue Bard to discover the "truth" of Margaery's adultery while simultaneously fine tuning what she wants this "truth" to be.

[quote name='redxavier' post='1442418' date='Jul 16 2008, 09.41']Ned is sending the girls away not because he's moving against Cersei, indeed, that has nothing to with it. He's sending them back to Winterfell because he's going to leave his post as Hand of the King and return to the North himself after he's sorted out a few things.[/quote]
Ned was planning to stay in KL and take up the role of Regent. This was inevitably going to lead to a showdown with Cersei when he declares her children illegitimate and proclaims Stannis to be the rightful king. Only once Stannis was crowned would he have returned home. He wants his daughters safely out of the way before this showdown. It is not entirely clear how quickly Ned had planned to act, but when Cersei summoned him to the throne room he decided he might as well move then.
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IIRC, at the time of the ultimatum and of forming the plan to send his girls away, being Regent isn't on the cards as Robert is still alive.

I agree on Cersei's penchant for twisting things around in her head. Part of the reason why I believe her to be poor mother to Tommen (to correct my recent off-topicness, for which I apologise) lies in the fact that she sees everything to do with his development into a King as being from Margaery. Her paranoia and loathing of the Queen (who she rather amusingly is loathe to call her) seriously affects her relationship with her son. Also, much like Lysa she seems to want to keep Tommen as the child that he is, but more for her personal power than wanting her child to be with her forever.
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I'm glad this thread exists, since I've been wracking my brains forever trying to figure out [i]why[/i] people think Sansa is to blame [i]at all[/i] for Ned's death... and now I know I'm not the only one.

I do think that it will probably come up again, in the form of Littlefinger manipulating her into believing it was all her fault. "Do you want more blood on your hands?"

[quote name='redxavier' post='1440725' date='Jul 15 2008, 05.57']You make far too much meal of the Trident incident and your perspective seems somewhat coloured by knowledge of what happens later - specifically Robert's [i]premature [/i]death.[/quote]
I think the point of bringing up the incident at the Trident is to show why Sansa herself would be confused, not why it was hypocritical of Ned to do nothing. Sansa watched her father tolerate Joffrey and Cersei's lying and brutality, and then all of a sudden, with no explanation, she's to believe that things have gotten bad enough that they need to leave?

Also, Ned knew all along that Joffrey was a little sh**, and was hesitant to agree to the marriage proposal at first. So it's not like he was totally cool with everything by the time they were at the Trident.

[quote]You really think that Ned and Robert would have stood by whilst Cersei and Joffrey made life difficult for his wife?[/quote]
Robert, yes. But of course that's irrelevant now. :/
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Cersei is different from Lysa in that Lysa smothers Robert under her care, defining herself as a mother and as such wanting to keep Robert a baby forever, when Cersei treats her children as extension of herself, through which she gets the recognition and status she craves.

Cersei is almost pitiable that way, she is raised more liberally than most girls would, she even tastes how it is to be a boy by switching with Jaime early in childhood, and so being powerless just because she is a woman hurts her. And so, she tries to compensate, first by getting closer and controlling her twin, who is actually [i]herself[/i] if you hear her think about it, then by controlling her offsprings, who are in a way herself too since she and Jaime are the same person. Joff turns bad that way because Cersei pushes on him the arrogance and ambition of a grown adult, without trying to even teach him to stand for himself or be independent, for a good reason: she wants to be his brains, unconsciously or not.

Tommen and Myrcella are left mostly alone since they don't bring her anything in her game.

I don't think it's an exceptional behaviour with some mothers, only it's pushed to a deadly extreme here.

[quote name='redxavier' post='1442418' date='Jul 16 2008, 10.41']Actually I was thinking of Cersei's POV chapter in AFFC, whereupon learning that Selyse is a Tyrell spy (I think, but perhaps it's one of Taena's revelations about Margaery) she comments, forgive me for paraphrasing, that "no-one had given her something so sweet since the Stark girl had come to her to reveal her father's plans".[/quote]Just a word on that: the daughter of your sworn enemy betraying him is pretty damn sweet even if you already have the info she gives you. Her goodwill is the most awesome gift you could hope for.

Cersei loves to actually win. And she even kissed Tyrion, of all persons, when she heard about Stannis and Renly fighting each others, I think she would actually call that sweet too.
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Lysa and Cersei each have compelling resumes. But I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dany. While the bit with the blood magic was a little unclear and she did basically buy a pig in a poke, she allowed MMD to kill her child in exchange for turning hubby into a zombie.
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[quote name='mcbigski' post='1443084' date='Jul 16 2008, 14.23']Lysa and Cersei each have compelling resumes. But I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dany. While the bit with the blood magic was a little unclear and she did basically buy a pig in a poke, she allowed MMD to kill her child in exchange for turning hubby into a zombie.[/quote]

Even if she did know the consequences but didn't want to acknowledge them, she expected Drogo to be completely healed, not zombie-man. Still, she did sacrifice her son.
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[quote name='Szar' post='1443741' date='Jul 17 2008, 11.13']She was dragged into that tent against her will.[/quote]

Yep. Which is why I decided not to include Dany in my original list of nominees. We really don't have any interaction between Dany and her baby on which we can form a conclusion on how good a mother she was.

Having said that, I think we can infer that she would have been a pretty decent mother based on her interactions with the three baby dragons.
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  • 2 years later...

BTW, I actually agree that Catelyn was generally a very good mother - but there are a number of reasons (especially the way she raised Sansa) which justify her inclusion on the list. This doesn't mean she is the worst mother in Westeros, just that she deserves to be on the shortlist and up for consideration. The other reason I included Catelyn on the list is because (as Littleifinger6000 points out) Catelyn has historically been despised as a mother figure on this board. So for the sake of completeness, Catelyn had to be on the list.

And she was an absolute BITCH to Jon. I understand he's not her kid, but why take it out on the boy...it wasn't his fault.

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