Jaqen H'ghar

[mormont]

[quote name='Erik of Hazelfield' post='1459001' date='Jul 28 2008, 15.34']Of all the strangeness regarding Jaqen H'ghar, the thing I wonder most about is why he was found in the black cells under King's Landing.

We've seen the stuff this man is capable of. He turns Weese's dog on him. He makes a man fall off the walls whithout anyone noticing (OK, this isn't particularly impressive, but it shows us how good he is at being unnoticed if he wants to). It beggars belief that the likes of Janos Slynt and his gold cloaks manage to catch Jaqen H'ghar while he commits a murder.

This is the only reason why Syrio = Jaqen has any credibility at all. I still don't believe in it, but at least it explains why Jaqen was in prison.[/quote]

Except it doesn't, really. It raises more questions about why Jaqen was there than it answers. Why would Trant take Syrio alive? Why would the Lannisters not execute him along with the other Stark retainers? Why would they allow Yoren to take him to the Wall? Why would they never wonder what became of him or mention him subsequently? Why would he bother to change identity? Why would no-one notice this, given that there are only three prisoners? and so on, and on. It's actually one of the biggest weaknesses of that theory, IMO.

As for why Jaqen was there: there are a number of alternative explanations. One is that he allowed himself to be caught, knowing that Yoren was to be given the pick of the cells. This requires Jaqen to have been 'caught' very recently, though. Another is that he simply isn't Superman, and genuinely got caught out. Neither are very satisfactory - but they're a lot better than Syrio=Jaqen.

[Frog Eater]

[quote name='mormont' post='1459096' date='Jul 28 2008, 11.49']Except it doesn't, really. It raises more questions about why Jaqen was there than it answers. Why would Trant take Syrio alive? Why would the Lannisters not execute him along with the other Stark retainers? Why would they allow Yoren to take him to the Wall? Why would they never wonder what became of him or mention him subsequently? Why would he bother to change identity? Why would no-one notice this, given that there are only three prisoners? and so on, and on. It's actually one of the biggest weaknesses of that theory, IMO.

As for why Jaqen was there: there are a number of alternative explanations. One is that he allowed himself to be caught, knowing that Yoren was to be given the pick of the cells. This requires Jaqen to have been 'caught' very recently, though. Another is that he simply isn't Superman, and genuinely got caught out. Neither are very satisfactory - but they're a lot better than Syrio=Jaqen.[/quote]

I used to be in the Syrio = Jaqen boat, but these same questions, caused me to beleive it. I would now believe that Varys had Jaqen thrown in the black cells, after Varys learned who he was, before I would believe that the kingsguard took him alive, rather than killed him along with the rest of the Northmen.

Why Varys? I dont know.... He seems to know things. Maybe knowing a faceless man was in town came to him.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

I suppose you're right (edit: Mormont, that is). Still, it's very strange.

I don't really buy the theory of Jaqen allowing himself to be caught at whatever - and it had to be pretty bad considering he's kept THERE - just to get into the Night's Watch. First, he has no guarantee that Yoren will pick him. Second, if he wanted so badly to go with them he could just ask. The Night's Watch is desperate for men willing to serve - they wouldn't ask any questions. As for him being genuinely caught, I suppose it's a possibility, but I don't like it.

Perhaps it was a job - he needed to get into the cells, and thus let himself be caught. (I strongly suspect this is one of the things we'll never find out about though.)

Edit again: If Varys was behind his capture, he would never had been set free.

[Prince of the North]

Hey, I don't remember - did Ned ever write that letter to Jon? The one that told Jon of his true parentage (assuming R+L=J)?

If so, Varys would of course read it and find out that there is another with a better claim to the throne than the one (Dany) he's been toiling so long to see on it (once again, assuming R+L=married).

Not wanting his plans potentially ruined Varys would have motive to never deliver that letter and, more importantly, see Ned Stark dead. So the Spider pulls some strings in his web and gets a Faceless Man in the Black Cells to silence Ned Stark either there or on the way to the Wall. Joffery decides to execute Ned instead of letting him take the Black, as everyone anticipated he would, but it's too late for the Faceless Man who's already in chains waiting to head North by the time he learns that Ned's not accomanying them. Ironically, the daughter of the man he was supposed to kill saves his life and we all know the rest. :)

Of course, this all hinges on whether Varys actually learned of Jon from such a letter (assuming R+L=J). :dunno:

[thupple]

To me, it more than just "what was Jaqen doing in the black cells"...it is why would Yoren take men to the Wall that he had to keep tied up? Okay, maybe Rorge and Jaqen...but BITER? How could anyone think anything useful could ever be made of Biter?

It seems to me that someone must have insisted Yoren take them all, giving Yoren no choice, and that that someone wanted Jaqen to be camoflauged among that party going to the Wall, and that they didn't really expect Yoren to chain them (or at least Jaqen) up.

Perhaps someone wanted him to spy on or kill Ned, or Gendry (the only "important" people known to be in the party). A likely candidate to me seems to be Varys, either acting on his own or under orders from someone else, like Cersei.

If this is the case, Jaqen could have made his way back to his employer (Varys?) after leaving Arya, and gotten his new orders to go spy on Marwyn (if that is what he is doing there).

I don't suppose that my theory would preclude Syrio = Jaqen, but I tend to feel like that theory is just wishful thinking, at least on my part. I mean, what would a FM being doing giving sword lessons to Arya? Unless his job was to spy on Ned.

On the other hand, they could have just been trying to get rid of their "trash", and made Yoren take them for that reason, and my whole conspiracy theory could be total bunk and maybe he was just in the black cells because he is, you know, a KILLER. I dunno, the whole Jaqen thing makes my head hurt. :ack: Too....many...rereads....

[Miriel]

Varys and Illyrio hired Jaqen to kill Jon Arryn.

But then LF and Lysa Arryn killed him first.

That is why Illyrio thinks Varys killed Jon Arryn (as indicated when they are overheard by Arya under the Red Keep)--Varys, for whatever reason does not enlighten him that the FM they hired did not actually do the deed.

So, then Varys, who we later learn is Rugen--in charge of the Black Cells, has a FM hanging around.

It must have been Varys who arranged for Jaqen to be in the Black Cells, and who arranged for him to be taken out of the Black Cells as well.

(That is my theory anyhow to explain the how/why of Jaqen in the Black Cells)

[Burr]

I've always supected that he was a plant by Varys, intentionally added to the NW fo rsome reason I can't fathom. Seemingly it would have had to do with Aemon, but what do I kow? It's a very stringy theory, I know, but Varys DOES know the highways and byways of the citadel by heart, so he could easily have dumped Jaqen to protect Gendry or something.

HOLY BATPOO BATMAN! is Varys an FM?

[Erik of Hazelfield]

Still doesn't explain why he had to be in the black cells. If Varys wanted Jaqen to be part of Yoren's group, there must have been some easier way of assuring this than stuffing his ass in prison and then persuading Yoren to take him (who, by the way, doesn't seem to be a guy who's easily persuaded).

It would explain, however, why Yoren DID take the three of them with him. That's some seriously bad judgement on his part - Jaqen is strange, Rorge is a brutal fucker and Biter is hardly even human. You surely have a point there, thupple.

And we all still want to know what Jaqen did to Rorge that scared him to the point where he runs errands for a little girl just because she says "Jaqen wants it".

This whole riddle makes so little sense that I think there must be a thought-out answer to it. Jaqen's presence in the cells is not just some sloppy plot convenience but an integral part of the history - which we haven't figured out yet.

[Burr]

Yoren IS capable of a lie, and was never a POV, so maybe it was prearranged. And Jaqen didn't have to spend much time in the black cells, just long enough to substantiate the story. Or no time at all if Yoren is in on it. But if he were I suspect he would have let them lose to fight. Still, I lean toward the Varys theory. but WHY?

[Miriel]

[quote name='Erik of Hazelfield' post='1459760' date='Jul 28 2008, 18.45']Still doesn't explain why he had to be in the black cells. If Varys wanted Jaqen to be part of Yoren's group, there must have been some easier way of assuring this than stuffing his ass in prison and then persuading Yoren to take him (who, by the way, doesn't seem to be a guy who's easily persuaded).[/quote]
I disagree ... it seems to me to be a a very convenient, almost fool proof way to get someone to travel North with Yoren's group w/out arousing suspicion. Yoren does not have to be persuaded at all. He is there to get everyone he can for the NW ... which as we know from Tyrion's POV, is seriously short of men.

[Miriel]

[quote name='Erik of Hazelfield' post='1459760' date='Jul 28 2008, 18.45']This whole riddle makes so little sense that I think there must be a thought-out answer to it. Jaqen's presence in the cells is not just some sloppy plot convenience but an integral part of the history - which we haven't figured out yet.[/quote]
Agreed ... is is either an integral part of the plot or just a serious lack of planning on the part of Martin (and I doubt that very much indeed--he seems to have thought of everything!).

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='mormont' post='1459096' date='Jul 28 2008, 17.49']As for why Jaqen was there: there are a number of alternative explanations. One is that he allowed himself to be caught, knowing that Yoren was to be given the pick of the cells. This requires Jaqen to have been 'caught' very recently, though. Another is that he simply isn't Superman, and genuinely got caught out. Neither are very satisfactory - but they're a lot better than Syrio=Jaqen.[/quote] Not really. This set-up, with Syrio protecting his trainee, the little Stark girl, is imo the best explanation, about how a faceless man recently is thrown in the black cells. The only thing you have to believe is that Trent didn't kill him, but captured him for some reason. Syrio wasn't a Stark, or a Baratheon, or some huge treat for the Lannisters. He protected a little girl, if I was a Lannister, I wouldn't care to much about what happened. Kept or killed, he is not a treat anymore, thus no reason to think about him. The fact is, we don't know, it can be both. Grrm "kills" a lot of good characters, but we also know he does like to bring them back as well.

[quote name='Erik of Hazelfield' post='1459760' date='Jul 29 2008, 01.45']It would explain, however, why Yoren DID take the three of them with him. That's some seriously bad judgement on his part - Jaqen is strange, Rorge is a brutal fucker and Biter is hardly even human. You surely have a point there, thupple.[/quote]
The Wall need men, apparently they need them badly. If they don't swear the vows, they will be punished at the Wall anyway.

[quote]And we all still want to know what Jaqen did to Rorge that scared him to the point where he runs errands for a little girl just because she says "Jaqen wants it".[/quote]
We know what he is capable of, skinchanging. We also know that Biter and Rorge are not easily intimidated. Skinchanging in front of their eyes would do, certainly if he skinchanged in someone they knew.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Miriel' post='1459496' date='Jul 28 2008, 23.04']Varys and Illyrio hired Jaqen to kill Jon Arryn.

But then LF and Lysa Arryn killed him first.

That is why Illyrio thinks Varys killed Jon Arryn (as indicated when they are overheard by Arya under the Red Keep)--Varys, for whatever reason does not enlighten him that the FM they hired did not actually do the deed.[/quote]
I agree with this part, although I lik eto add one extra "killer" here, Pycelle did help a bit as well.

[quote]So, then Varys, who we later learn is Rugen--in charge of the Black Cells, has a FM hanging around.
It must have been Varys who arranged for Jaqen to be in the Black Cells, and who arranged for him to be taken out of the Black Cells as well.
(That is my theory anyhow to explain the how/why of Jaqen in the Black Cells)[/quote]
The problem here is, why didn't he take him trough one of his secret passages. He wouldn't do Jaqen a big favor by sending him North in closed cage. He can just change his face, walk through a hidden tunnel and make his own way to the North, if his activities were needed there.

[AsphodelElysium]

What happened to the Faceless Man Robert and Co. hired to kill Dany? Did he make it to King's Landing before Robert changed his mind or Ned changed it for him? I always kind of thought Jaqen was him and he got tossed in the black cells either to keep him quiet about the plot (after they changed their minds) or after Robert died because plans were changed and Robert hadn't called him off the assassination. Does anyone remember or re-read recently? The sequence of events might clarify it a bit.

[mormont]

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1460301' date='Jul 29 2008, 09.13']Not really. This set-up, with Syrio protecting his trainee, the little Stark girl, is imo the best explanation, about how a faceless man recently is thrown in the black cells.[/quote]

Not really.

[quote]The only thing you have to believe is that Trent didn't kill him, but captured him for some reason.[/quote]

This is a long way from being the only thing you have to believe: and yet even if it were, it's still a huge problem. Is it impossible that Trant captured Syrio? No, but it's incredibly unlikely - and in some ways that's a bigger problem. Writers cannot have unlikely things happening all over the place without any indications to the reader.

[quote]Syrio wasn't a Stark, or a Baratheon, or some huge treat for the Lannisters. He protected a little girl, if I was a Lannister, I wouldn't care to much about what happened. Kept or killed, he is not a treat anymore, thus no reason to think about him.[/quote]

And yet they killed Septa Mordane for less. And IIRC Cersei mentions Syrio, though not by name ('her dancing master interfered'), so she clearly is aware of what he did. It makes no sense whatsoever for them not to execute Syrio, if he was captured.

[quote]The fact is, we don't know, it can be both. Grrm "kills" a lot of good characters, but we also know he does like to bring them back as well.[/quote]

GRRM has never done anything comparable to what he would need to do to bring Syrio back. To 'resurrect' a character after three or more books in which he's assumed to be dead, by depending on a series of unlikely occurrences and poor decisions by their enemies which the reader has had no hint of, is an altogether different kettle of fish from (say) Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' or UnCat's 'resurrection'.

I also note you haven't addressed the other questions - why the change of identity? How could that work if there are only three prisoners? And then there are a dozen more.

No, Syrio=Jaqen is simply not a viable theory. It needs too many incredible explanations and doesn't serve any purpose for the story. However Jaqen got into the Black Cells, it was not as Syrio.

[quote name='AsphodelElysium' post='1460316' date='Jul 29 2008, 10.01']What happened to the Faceless Man Robert and Co. hired to kill Dany?[/quote]

They didn't hire one. They discussed the option but rejected it.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='mormont' post='1459096' date='Jul 28 2008, 17.49']I also note you haven't addressed the other questions[/quote]
I had them in my original post, but I deleted that part, because in the end it all comes down on captured or killed.

[quote]Why would Trant take Syrio alive?[/quote]
Someone interferred.
He tried to kill him, but he couldn’t. Syrio being fast as a fox and all.
Syrio actually told Trant he was a faceles man.
He skinchanged
He decided capturing him would be more convenient.
Something else

[quote]Why would the Lannisters not execute him along with the other Stark retainers?[/quote] he is not a Stark man, a la Septa Mordane. He is a dancing master, not from the North, but from somewhere else. He isn’t worth thinking about much anyway. He interferred, because he was in the way, not because he has Stark feelings.

[quote]Why would they allow Yoren to take him to the Wall?[/quote]
Because he is an useless prisoner, like Rorge and Biter.

[quote]Why would they never wonder what became of him or mention him subsequently?[/quote]
Because he is not important enough. Or because GRRM decides that he wants to keep it a mystery.

[quote]Why would he bother to change identity?[/quote]
Erase his tracks. The Lannisters could change their minds. He doesn’t know, but it cannot hurt to change his identity.

[quote]Why would no-one notice this, given that there are only three prisoners?[/quote]
Because he changed in the third person already there and there was quite a lot going on at that particular moment. And according to Rorge and Biters reactions on Jaqen, I think there are two that have noticed.

[quote]GRRM has never done anything comparable to what he would need to do to bring Syrio back.[/quote]
He has to capture Syrio, instead of killing him. Like Ned telling Cercei about what he knows. Like freeing the kingslayer, instead of killing him. Like hearing a confession, instead of finishing the mountain. As you say, Cercei makes a comment about the dancing master, only one, probably because she thinks (and is right) that the man is not important.


[quote]To 'resurrect' a character after three or more books in which he's assumed to be dead, by depending on a series of unlikely occurrences and poor decisions by their enemies which the reader has had no hint of, is an altogether different kettle of fish from (say) Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' or UnCat's 'resurrection'.[/quote]
To be clear, he will not and has not resurrect Syrio. Syrio is death, as well as Jaqen. It is imo, completely a la GRRM to have “Syrio” in front of our eyes while we think he is death. Like Jon Snow. It’s fun and does add something to the mysterious Jaqen/Pate/etc. For all we know, Jon Snow maybe will never find out, but we know, and that is nice. Same counts for Syrio, maybe he will never do something with his former Syrio identity, but he could, and then we know, and that would be nice as well. Doesn’t change the plot though.


[quote]No, Syrio=Jaqen is simply not a viable theory. It needs too many incredible explanations and doesn't serve any purpose for the story. However Jaqen got into the Black Cells, it was not as Syrio.[/quote]
It doesn’t have to have a purpose. It’s fun, it’s clever, it fits, it’s unexpected and it is possible.

[mormont]

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1460357' date='Jul 29 2008, 12.16']Someone interferred.[/quote]

Inventing entities. Some person shows up just to save Syrio? Not viable.

[quote]He tried to kill him, but he couldn’t. Syrio being fast as a fox and all.[/quote]

If Trant's not fast enough to kill him, he's not fast enough to take him prisoner.

[quote]Syrio actually told Trant he was a faceles man.[/quote]

Assuming they stopped for a chat, I cannot see why this would make Trant stay his hand. Even if it did, this moves the idea that they would subsequently forget about him and let Yoren take him to an even higher level of absurdity.

[quote]He skinchanged[/quote]

Same as previous.

[quote]He decided capturing him would be more convenient.[/quote]

In what way? Without a specific reason as to why, this is just saying 'I don't know'.

[quote]Something else[/quote]

And this is just saying 'I don't know'. ;)

[quote]he is not a Stark man, a la Septa Mordane. He is a dancing master, not from the North, but from somewhere else. [b]He isn’t worth thinking about much anyway.[/b] He interferred, because he was in the way, not because he has Stark feelings.[/quote]

None of this would make a difference to the Lannisters, except the highlighted part which makes it [i]more[/i] likely they'd execute him.

[quote]Because he is an useless prisoner, like Rorge and Biter.[/quote]

It's impossible to reconcile this with him not being executed. If he's useless, he's executed. If not, he's not given to the NW.

[quote]Because he is not important enough. Or because GRRM decides that he wants to keep it a mystery.[/quote]

The last is begging the question. The first... see above. If he's not important, he's dead. If he is, he wouldn't be forgotten about.

[quote]Erase his tracks.he Lannisters could change their minds. He doesn’t know, but it cannot hurt to change his identity.[/quote]

It certainly could, and would. It's impossible to believe, with only three prisoners, that there could be any confusion over who is in the cells: there appear to be records, apart from anything else. If Syrio went in, and Jaqen came out, far from covering his tracks this [i]draws attention[/i] to him and leaves a huge signal that he is not what he seems.

If he could leave as Jaqen, he could leave as Syrio, and cover his tracks after escaping from Yoren.

[quote]Because he changed in the third person already there and there was quite a lot going on at that particular moment.[/quote]

Which moment? Just the general time, with the coup, you mean? I can't see it.

[quote]And according to Rorge and Biters reactions on Jaqen, I think there are two that have noticed.[/quote]

[i]Post hoc[/i] justification rather than evidence.

[quote]He has to capture Syrio, instead of killing him. [b]Like Ned telling Cercei about what he knows. Like freeing the kingslayer, instead of killing him. Like hearing a confession, instead of finishing the mountain.[/b][/quote]

None of the highlighted things are at all comparable to this theory.

[quote]Doesn’t change the plot though.[/quote]

Then what's the point?

[quote]It’s fun, it’s clever, it fits, it’s unexpected and it is possible.[/quote]

It may be possible, in a sense. But it most assuredly does not fit. We haven't even got into the biggest objection yet: timing. Syrio would have to go to the cells [i]after[/i] Ned's death. But Yoren was given permission to go to the cells and take prisoners well [i]before[/i] this. It requires almost split-second timing for Yoren to have taken Syrio from the cells at the right moment, after Syrio was taken but before the Red Keep was sealed (I'm not even sure it's possible at all). And do you really think that a jailer would release prisoners in the middle of a coup? Or that the Lannisters would honour Ned's order?

Oh, I know, you can invoke the 'confusion' answer again, but really, what credibility can a theory so reliant on 'confusion', people making inexplicable decisions and conveniently forgetting things, careful timing, important off-screen events not hinted at in the text, and pure coincidence can have? The more justification and explanation a theory requires, the weaker it is - and this one requires a warehouse-full.

[thupple]

[quote name='mormont' post='1460744' date='Jul 29 2008, 10.42']Inventing entities. Some person shows up just to save Syrio? Not viable.[/quote]

<snip>

I for one am now convinced by Mormont's sound reasoning that Jaqen is not Syrio. I would love to hear similar reasoning theorizing about why Jaqen was in the black cells. I've read a number of threads on the issue, and don't feel totally comfortable with anything I've read (including what I've written myself).

[mormont]

[quote name='thupple' post='1460806' date='Jul 29 2008, 17.33']<snip>

I for one am now convinced by Mormont's sound reasoning that Jaqen is not Syrio. I would love to hear similar reasoning theorizing about why Jaqen was in the black cells. I've read a number of threads on the issue, and don't feel totally comfortable with anything I've read (including what I've written myself).[/quote]

See, that's the problem. It's easy enough to take Syrio=Jaqen to pieces, but I don't have any great theories of my own as to how he got in there. :P

[thupple]

[quote name='mormont' post='1460826' date='Jul 29 2008, 11.44']See, that's the problem. It's easy enough to take Syrio=Jaqen to pieces, but I don't have any great theories of my own as to how he got in there. :P[/quote]

Darn! Oh, well. Back to waiting for GRRM to unravel the rest of the story... :unsure: