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Jaqen H'ghar


Kingslander

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[quote name='mormont' post='1460826' date='Jul 29 2008, 11.44']See, that's the problem. It's easy enough to take Syrio=Jaqen to pieces, but I don't have any great theories of my own as to how he got in there. :P[/quote]
Mormont,

What do you think of the idea that Varys put a Faceless Man in the Black Cells to kill Eddard either there (which would be messier in terms of repercussions) or on the way to the Wall (which would probably be cleaner in terms of repercussions)?

Of course, this would depend upon Varys either already knowing that R+L=J (if it does) or finding out through the letter that Eddard discussed with him. I could see such a revelation about Jon being motivation for Varys to not want Jon to find out about his parentage and become a possible obstacle to his plans for Dany.

Also, I don't recall whether said letter was actually written :dunno:
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We could imagine:
[list]
[*]He was a plant by Varys and Illyrio to deal with Robert when the time was right. Black cells give him full access to secret passages, as well as hide him. He would have arrived at the same time as Illyrio in AGOT.
[*]He was captured by Varys, having come to talk about a Dany assassination.
[*]He was captured after killing a merchant at the request of LF (and LF betrayed him to not pay). LF talks about their prices back in AGOT.
[/list]

It would be more likely than some holy mission to keep Arya not safe and leave her in the middle of a civil war, not mentioning than even in the frame of J=S, Jaqen still had to have a purpose to be in the city at first that's unrelated to Arya (unless we're talking prophecies and making FM know the future of specific persons)

Also, let's note that FM are not superbeings. Jaqen cannot break through his fetters before Arya throws the axe, Sam clearly notices something is off with "Pate", and the FM training we see with Arya so far has nothing to do with superinvincibility and more with being a good actor, with experience... If that alone made a FM a superninja of doom, then half the robbers and unsavory figures Arya learns from could escape city guards, magic themselves out of irons and jails, and beat the sword of the morning in a duel.

Also, about training and Syrio = Jaqen. Either Jaqen really passed years as the first sword, and so had to reach mastery impossible for a Jack of all trades masquerading mostly as people who are not masters (compared to real masters who devote their life to the sword), or he is lying and thus he really is average at water dancing, as befits someone who cannot devote himself to practice and improvement, and so Trant could cut him down.
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[quote name='mormont' post='1460744' date='Jul 29 2008, 11.42']It may be possible, in a sense. But it most assuredly does not fit. We haven't even got into the biggest objection yet: timing. [b]Syrio would have to go to the cells [i]after[/i] Ned's death.[/b] But Yoren was given permission to go to the cells and take prisoners well [i]before[/i] this. It requires almost split-second timing for Yoren to have taken Syrio from the cells at the right moment, after Syrio was taken but before the Red Keep was sealed (I'm not even sure it's possible at all). [b]And do you really think that a jailer would release prisoners in the middle of a coup? Or that the Lannisters would honour Ned's order?[/b]

Oh, I know, you can invoke the 'confusion' answer again, but really, what credibility can a theory so reliant on 'confusion', people making inexplicable decisions and conveniently forgetting things, careful timing, important off-screen events not hinted at in the text, and pure coincidence can have? The more justification and explanation a theory requires, the weaker it is - and this one requires a warehouse-full.[/quote]

Am I missing something? Why would Syrio have had to go to the Black Cells after Ned's death? Who's to say he hadn't been in there since Ned was taken, having been taken the same day?

Also, the coup was effectively over by the time the prisoners were released. Ned had been in the cells for days, at least, and Joffrey was pretty well established as the new King. And why would the Lannisters care whether a mangy old Black Brother took some prisoners to the Wall with him? Once the order was given, Yoren had his permission. Why would the Lannisters even be aware of it at that point?
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I'm not sure, maybe because Cersei planned to have Ned be shipped to the wall with Yoren? Anyway, she was aware of who went with Yoren... she sent the gold cloaks after them shortly after they departed, for Gendry. If there was a guy who knew, helped and was friend with the girl the Lannisters were frantically searching for in the group as well, I'm convinced she would have sent for him too.

The black cells are by definition, against the notion of unimportant, forgotten prisoners. If someone is sent there it's that he cannot be killed, for whatever reason (be it trials during peace or political importance during a coup). Someone caught during Ned's coup cannot be both too valuable to be kept alive and too insignificant to remember or care about. The Lannisters killed everyone in Ned's service, I remind you, even Septa Mordane, who was hardly a bigger threat than Syrio.
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[quote name='Kingslander' post='1456810' date='Jul 25 2008, 19.06']...it's no coincidence that all the Stark children who went south of the wall lost their wolves (although Arya is having wolf dreams now)...[/quote]


I am aware that this is nitpicking, but isn't Winterfell south of the Wall?

Also, the only two Stark children to go to King's Landing with Ned were Sansa and Arya, and Nymeria is definitely still around, and still in Arya's head, even though they are no longer constant companions.

Robb went south to go to war, and lost his wolf at the Twins, but I'm not sure it counts since he lost his head as well.

We don't know where Rickon is headed, but it's pretty likely he and Shaggydog are heading south, too.
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[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1460960' date='Jul 29 2008, 13.50']I'm not sure, maybe because Cersei planned to have Ned be shipped to the wall with Yoren? Anyway, she was aware of who went with Yoren... she sent the gold cloaks after them shortly after they departed, for Gendry. If there was a guy who knew, helped and was friend with the girl the Lannisters were frantically searching for in the group as well, I'm convinced she would have sent for him too.

The black cells are by definition, against the notion of unimportant, forgotten prisoners. If someone is sent there it's that he cannot be killed, for whatever reason (be it trials during peace or political importance during a coup). Someone caught during Ned's coup cannot be both too valuable to be kept alive and too insignificant to remember or care about. The Lannisters killed everyone in Ned's service, I remind you, even Septa Mordane, who was hardly a bigger threat than Syrio.[/quote]


That's fair, but if the black cells are only for significant prisoners, then what were Rorge and Biter doing in there?

Also, [i]if [/i]Syrio=Jaqen, [i]and [/i]Syrio changed to Jaqen shortly after having been deposited in the cells, then they wouldn't have [i]forgotten [/i]Syrio, it just wouldn't [i]be [/i]Syrio. If no one could remember who Jaqen was or why he had been incarcerated, then why not let him go to the Wall with Yoren?
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[quote name='Meribor' post='1460935' date='Jul 29 2008, 18.37']Am I missing something? Why would Syrio have had to go to the Black Cells after Ned's death? Who's to say he hadn't been in there since Ned was taken, having been taken the same day?[/quote]

Ah, sorry. Misspoke there: I meant Ned's [i]fall[/i] rather than his death. :blush: I type before I think sometimes.

[quote]Also, the coup was effectively over by the time the prisoners were released. Ned had been in the cells for days, at least, and Joffrey was pretty well established as the new King. And why would the Lannisters care whether a mangy old Black Brother took some prisoners to the Wall with him? Once the order was given, Yoren had his permission. Why would the Lannisters even be aware of it at that point?[/quote]

The Red Keep was sealed for some time during and after the coup. There is a window of opportunity between it being opened and Ned's death (yeah, I do mean that this time :P) when Yoren [i]might[/i] have acquired the prisoners. Seems pretty unlikely, though.

I mean, we have a scenario where a recruiter from the Night's Watch - an organisation close to the Stark family, even though officially neutral (and we later see how Cersei regards that claim of neutrality) - shows up after the coup with an order signed by Ned allowing him access to the area where Ned is being held. Do you really think the guards didn't refer that one to Cersei, and just let him help himself to the prisoners? (Apart from Ned, presumably. Although there's another oddity: if the plan is to send Ned to the Wall, why not tell Yoren to come back later and take them all at once?)

Worse, the Syrio=Jaqen theory relies on nobody keeping particularly close track of who exactly is going into and who's leaving the cells: but this is where Ned is being held! It's simply unbelievable that the security could be that lax.

No, for Syrio=Jaqen to be credible Yoren [i]must[/i] have visited the Black Cells [i]before[/i] Ned was sent there. And yet this would seem impossible. There's a small window of opportunity, but the coup was ongoing at the time and the Red Keep was sealed.
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My thoughts are that 'Jaqen' had a job to do... a job that was either foiled or completed at Harrentown (IMO, more the former than the latter). Had he managed to escape on his own, 'Jaqen' would have died there and the Alchemist would have headed to Oldtown. However as Arya threw them the axe, 'Jaqen' is bound to return the lives she saved and he 'lives' long enough to repay that debt.

Whatever that job was, it seemed it required him to find himself a way into the black cells and be taken towards the Wall by Yoren. Maybe he was supposed to murder someone who was in that envoy, a someone who died during battle when Amory Loch seiged Harrentown.

Or... 'Jaqen' was simply created to leave KL, just a 'presona' to get out of KL without notice and nothing more. Once he was out safely, he was on to Oldtown as the alchemist. Maybe his former persona before 'Jaqen' was somone of note... someone who committed a pretty heinous crime that warranted being thrown in the black cells and would be bad to let out.

'Jaqen' lived in the black cells, the 'rescue' by Yoren, and chained all the way to Harrentown. I do not think he would have stayed as 'Jaqen' through all of that unless it was for a reason., a job.





Of course all of this could be nonsense. it *is* possible that Jaqen might have gotten caught in the middle of his 'job' and thrown in the black cells to be forgotten or 'questioned' later. Luck came along in the form of Yoren and Jaqen made it out alive. I happen to think that's a bunch of hooey because Martin doesn't seem to be so lazy with his 'lose ends', especially with such intriguing and 'central' characters.
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[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1460914' date='Jul 29 2008, 10.25']Mormont,

What do you think of the idea that Varys put a Faceless Man in the Black Cells to kill Eddard either there (which would be messier in terms of repercussions) or on the way to the Wall (which would probably be cleaner in terms of repercussions)?

Of course, this would depend upon Varys either already knowing that R+L=J (if it does) or finding out through the letter that Eddard discussed with him. I could see such a revelation about Jon being motivation for Varys to not want Jon to find out about his parentage and become a possible obstacle to his plans for Dany.

Also, I don't recall whether said letter was actually written :dunno:[/quote]

I don't remember anything about a letter from Eddard to Varys. Can someone explain what this is all about?
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[quote name='mormont' post='1461013' date='Jul 29 2008, 20.24']Do you really think the guards didn't refer that one to Cersei, and just let him help himself to the prisoners? (Apart from Ned, presumably. Although there's another oddity: if the plan is to send Ned to the Wall, why not tell Yoren to come back later and take them all at once?)[/quote]

I think you overlook that the person responsible for the black cells was a gaoler named Rugen. And this one probably wouldn't have had any problems to set a man free, if he wanted. A man who had apperently nothing to do with the Stark traitors.

So maybe it went like this: Syrio is finally overwhelmed and because of his extreme dangerousness he is put in the black cells, where he meets three other very dangerous men, Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. He kills Jaqen, takes his identity, thisscares the other two a lot, the galoer tells everyone Syrio is dead and the three leave the cells together whith Yoren. The only question that still has to be answered is, what Varys planned to do with a faceless man.
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[quote name='Pluggers' post='1461090' date='Jul 29 2008, 14.21']I don't remember anything about a letter from Eddard to Varys. Can someone explain what this is all about?[/quote]
Admittedly, my recollection is hazy on this so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but here's basically how I think it went:

Ned's regrets (presumably) about how he handled Jon weighed heavily on him when he was in the Black Cells. Thus, one of the things spoken of when Varys came to talk with Ned in the guise of Rugen the gaoler was whether Varys would have a letter from Ned delivered to Jon in the North. Varys said he would read the letter first and then decide if he would deliver it. We don't know exactly what Ned wanted to tell Jon but it seems plausible that it could have something to do with Jon's parentage (among other things) and we don't know if such a letter was ever actually written :dunno:

However, if such a letter was written and that's how Varys found out R+L=J then I could see Varys wanting Ned dead so as to prevent Jon from finding out the truth and possibly messing up his plans. (a lot of "if's" there, eh? ;) )
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[quote name='Smeik' post='1461176' date='Jul 29 2008, 16.22']I think you overlook that the person responsible for the black cells was a gaoler named Rugen. And this one probably wouldn't have had any problems to set a man free, if he wanted. A man who had apperently nothing to do with the Stark traitors.

So maybe it went like this: Syrio is finally overwhelmed and because of his extreme dangerousness he is put in the black cells, where he meets three other very dangerous men, Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. He kills Jaqen, takes his identity, thisscares the other two a lot, the galoer tells everyone Syrio is dead and the three leave the cells together whith Yoren. The only question that still has to be answered is, what Varys planned to do with a faceless man.[/quote]

Kinda close there but no. Syrio wasn't a faceless man. A FM has better things to do than hang around KL training a little girl for some lord. Syrio could maybe kill Jaqen, but turn into him after? No.
There was a FM who did in fact kill Jaqen. We don't know the reason why. The face he wore before he took Jaqen's is also unknown. Jaqen was a brave companion. Hence the reason he was with Rorge and Biter. Did this FM take Jaqen's place to get closer to someone only Brave Companions can get close to? Think of Jaqen's appearance. Half red half white hair. Classic brave companion. They are a demented colorful bunch. He was with Rorge and Biter because that is where the real Jaqen would've been. Who knows what they were up to when they got thrown in jail. The FM that is Jaqen certainly didnt have to be locked up with them knowing his skill set though. He chose to stick with them for whatever reason. Until we find out, or if we do. Then we will know.
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[quote name='Vindor Clegane' post='1461191' date='Jul 29 2008, 15.36']There was a FM who did in fact kill Jaqen. We don't know the reason why. The face he wore before he took Jaqen's is also unknown. Jaqen was a brave companion. Hence the reason he was with Rorge and Biter. Did this FM take Jaqen's place to get closer to someone only Brave Companions can get close to? Think of Jaqen's appearance. Half red half white hair. Classic brave companion. They are a demented colorful bunch. He was with Rorge and Biter because that is where the real Jaqen would've been. Who knows what they were up to when they got thrown in jail. The FM that is Jaqen certainly didnt have to be locked up with them knowing his skill set though. He chose to stick with them for whatever reason. Until we find out, or if we do. Then we will know.[/quote]
Hmmm... that is a very interesting idea about the Jaqen persona's hair.

However, Rorge and Biter were not Brave Companions (unless I am totally forgetting something in which case my apologies). They were just really bad guys from Kings Landing, IIRC. Somewhere (SSM) is the "back-story" of both Rorge and Biter. It was something about how Rorge was always a bad guy, who ran some kind of dodgy animal fighting ring in KL. He took Biter in as an orphan and raised him and he was the one who had filed Biter's teeth in order for him to better fight w/ the animals.

So, I don't think we can just say Jaqen was locked up w/ Rorge and Biter b/c he was doing something bad with them. He does not seem to view them as anything but pure scum.


I think it more likely he is locked up w/ them because Rugen/Varys wanted him to be taken North-- perhaps so he would be left alone and have no one question him too closely? Maybe the plan all along was that Yoren would decide along the way that Rorge and Biter were too much trouble and kill them and the Jaqen persona would disappear along with them--the assumption being that he was killed along with our charming duo when in reality Yoren let him go around Harrenahll in order to fulfill his mission (although this is getting to complicated and so less likely).
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[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1461187' date='Jul 29 2008, 13.33']Admittedly, my recollection is hazy on this so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but here's basically how I think it went:

Ned's regrets (presumably) about how he handled Jon weighed heavily on him when he was in the Black Cells. Thus, one of the things spoken of when Varys came to talk with Ned in the guise of Rugen the gaoler was whether Varys would have a letter from Ned delivered to Jon in the North. Varys said he would read the letter first and then decide if he would deliver it. We don't know exactly what Ned wanted to tell Jon but it seems plausible that it could have something to do with Jon's parentage (among other things) and we don't know if such a letter was ever actually written :dunno:

However, if such a letter was written and that's how Varys found out R+L=J then I could see Varys wanting Ned dead so as to prevent Jon from finding out the truth and possibly messing up his plans. (a lot of "if's" there, eh? ;) )[/quote]

Thanks :)
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Hopefully I can win over Thupple again, at least I can try. Here me goes, wish me luck…

[quote name='Mormont']Inventing entities. Some person shows up just to save Syrio? Not viable.[/quote]
Podric Payne, Summer [i]unnamed[/i], the Onionknight, Arstan, Jon. This time we didn’t hear about it, but it happens all the time.

[quote]If Trant's not fast enough to kill him, he's not fast enough to take him prisoner. .[/quote] Syrio could have yielded.

[quote]Assuming they stopped for a chat, I cannot see why this would make Trant stay his hand. Even if it did, this moves the idea that they would subsequently forget about him and let Yoren take him to an even higher level of absurdity.[/quote]
Correct, I wasn’t hinking

[quote]In what way? Without a specific reason as to why, this is just saying 'I don't know'.[/quote]
I can’t know, I wasn’t there. I can image more people coming into the room, searching for a fight. And Trent orderd them to capture Syrio, because he grew tired or another reason.

[quote]None of this would make a difference to the Lannisters, except the highlighted part which makes it more likely they'd execute him.[/quote]
Why?


[quote]It's impossible to reconcile this with him not being executed. If he's useless, he's executed. If not, he's not given to the NW.[/quote]
There is quite a lot going on, the people that should give the order to execute him are busy with much more important matters. It’s not unlikely that some captured dancing master would be thrown in the black cells for killing Lannister men. Maybe Cercei/Tywin whoever that was ruling at that moment thought to come back upon that later, but forgot about it due to more urgent matters.


[quote]It certainly could, and would. It's impossible to believe, with only three prisoners, that there could be any confusion over who is in the cells: there appear to be records, apart from anything else. If Syrio went in, and Jaqen came out, far from covering his tracks this draws attention to him and leaves a huge signal that he is not what he seems.
If he could leave as Jaqen, he could leave as Syrio, and cover his tracks after escaping from Yoren.[/quote]
Imagine, not to vividly, because it’s not a nice picture. Syrio comes in, kills Jaqen, change clothes, butchering Jaqen, change face, voila. The dancing master is death, Jaqen lives up to his reputation, three men leave the dungeons.

[quote]Post hoc justification rather than evidence.[/quote]
Well, otherwise you still have to explain why they are so scared of Jaqen. I know a FM would have some tricks, but this trich would do certainly and does fit a faceless man.


[quote]None of the highlighted things are at all comparable to this theory.[/quote]
After thinking about it again, yes, you are right, completely irrelevant.


[quote]Then what's the point?[/quote]
Entertainment?

[quote]It may be possible, in a sense. But it most assuredly does not fit. We haven't even got into the biggest objection yet: timing.[/quote]
If I am correctly informed, timing is not Martin greatest concern. It’s something I am unable to grasp either. I don’t know if the timing could work, but I know that the only way for me to figure that out is to think in depth about the whole timing scheme. It’s a minor thing, I don’t think he gave it that much thoughts either.

[quote]Oh, I know, you can invoke the 'confusion' answer again, but really, what credibility can a theory so reliant on 'confusion', people making inexplicable decisions and conveniently forgetting things, careful timing, important off-screen events not hinted at in the text, and pure coincidence can have? The more justification and explanation a theory requires, the weaker it is - and this one requires a warehouse-full.[/quote]
You are making the Jaqen = Syrio thing much to important. I think it’s in there for fun. For the undebating readers will be surprised to hear in an offhand comment in book 6 that Pate has been Syrio before (while meeting Arya [b]again[/b] mayhaps). A small thing to do, but it will certainly have a nice effect. Why wouldn’t he do that, if the oppurtunity is clearly there? He did something similar before, see Arstan and Sarella (although these do have a more important plotwise reason).
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[quote name='Smeik' post='1461176' date='Jul 29 2008, 21.22']I think you overlook that the person responsible for the black cells was a gaoler named Rugen. And this one probably wouldn't have had any problems to set a man free, if he wanted. A man who had apperently nothing to do with the Stark traitors.[/quote]

No, I don't overlook it, it's just irrelevant. What reason does Varys have to arrange all this? And even if he did have a reason, there's [i]still[/i] no reason for the switch of identities in the Black Cells. It could have been done later.

Also, if Varys wanted to free Syrio/Jaqen, why not just [i]free[/i] him? It's pretty clear that, were it not for Arya, Yoren would have taken Jaqen to the Wall. It's equally clear that he didn't want to go there. The only possible conclusion is that Jaqen's being handed over to Yoren was not part of his mission and therefore is extremely unlikely to have been part of a plot by Varys. I think it can only have been blind bad luck.

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1461746' date='Jul 30 2008, 08.54']Podric Payne, Summer [i]unnamed[/i], the Onionknight, Arstan, Jon. This time we didn’t hear about it, but it happens all the time.[/quote]

Again, you're comparing apples with oranges. The fact that we don't hear about it is key: a theory that relies on the existence of an unknown entity doing something we don't know about which serves no purpose but to make the theory work, is inherently weak.

[quote]Syrio could have yielded.[/quote]

Possibly. Unlikely from what we know, though.

[quote]I can’t know, I wasn’t there. I can image more people coming into the room, searching for a fight. And Trent orderd them to capture Syrio, because he grew tired or another reason.[/quote]

But that you can [i]imagine[/i] something happening doesn't make it a good theory. It takes little effort to [i]imagine[/i] things happening: Nightflyer had a whole backstory going on which had no basis in the books at all. What you have to ask is, is it really likely that this is what happened? Is the author going to have the FM revealed as Jaqen, and explain how someone showed up and Syrio got captured and then Yoren managed to get him out of the cells and so on and so on?

[quote]Why?[/quote]

I've said it before: if he's not important, there's no reason not to execute him along with Septa Mordane and all the rest.

[quote]There is quite a lot going on, the people that should give the order to execute him are busy with much more important matters.[/quote]

There is no need for a specific order to execute him to be given. There appear to have been standing orders to kill Stark retainers. Syrio is part of the Stark household, he's protected Arya, he's killed Lannister guardsmen trying to capture her: the idea that anyone would let him live absent a specific order to execute him is incredible.

Besides, they were not too busy to give orders to execute Septa Mordane.

[quote]It’s not unlikely that some captured dancing master would be thrown in the black cells for killing Lannister men.[/quote]

It's [i]extremely[/i] unlikely.

[quote]Maybe Cercei/Tywin whoever that was ruling at that moment thought to come back upon that later, but forgot about it due to more urgent matters.[/quote]

Also extremely unlikely.

[quote]Imagine, not to vividly, because it’s not a nice picture. Syrio comes in, kills Jaqen, change clothes, butchering Jaqen, change face, voila. The dancing master is death, Jaqen lives up to his reputation, three men leave the dungeons.[/quote]

And a high-security prisoner goes missing and no-one wonders about it.

[quote]Well, otherwise you still have to explain why they are so scared of Jaqen. I know a FM would have some tricks, but this trich would do certainly and does fit a faceless man.[/quote]

It's not hard to do so. In fact, I think it's odd to suggest that the reason for their fear must be witnessing the change, absent any other evidence: certainly there is no hint that they know Jaqen is not Jaqen, so to speak.

[quote]If I am correctly informed, timing is not Martin greatest concern. It’s something I am unable to grasp either. I don’t know if the timing could work, but I know that the only way for me to figure that out is to think in depth about the whole timing scheme. It’s a minor thing, I don’t think he gave it that much thoughts either.[/quote]

Well, I don't think he gave it much thought either, since I don't think Syrio=Jaqen ever crossed his mind. ;)
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[quote]And a high-security prisoner goes missing and no-one wonders about it.[/quote]
he is not missing, he is death!

[quote]Possibly. Unlikely from what we know, though.[/quote]
You keep saying unlikely. And that's true from Arya's pespective. But if he indeed is a faceless man, why wouldn't he. Arya is safe, somehow he feels obligated to safe Arya. He can yield now, his mask isn't needed anymore, he maybe is the first sword of Braavos, but he is more, a faceless man. And Valar Dohaeris, he must serve first.

[quote]But that you can imagine something happening doesn't make it a good theory.[/quote]
Somehow you imagined that he has died.

[quote]It takes little effort to imagine things happening: Nightflyer had a whole backstory going on which had no basis in the books at all. What you have to ask is, is it really likely that this is what happened? Is the author going to have the FM revealed as Jaqen, and explain how someone showed up and Syrio got captured and then Yoren managed to get him out of the cells and so on and so on?[/quote]
That's not likely, he doesn't have to. The only thing he has to do is at some particular moment, when Pate and arya met again in a dramatic situation, shout: "Fear cuts deaper than swords, boy". Or somethinglike this.

[quote]Well, I don't think he gave it much thought either, since I don't think Syrio=Jaqen ever crossed his mind.[/quote]
just so... ;-) but mabe he did.
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[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1461795' date='Jul 30 2008, 09.39']he is not missing, he is death![/quote]

So Jaqen is dead, and FM-Syrio takes his place, and the corpse of real-Jaqen is produced as evidence that real-Syrio is dead?

Can you spot the flaw? ;)

Oh, maybe it's possible. But it's not very likely to be what the author thinks has happened, is it? And as I say, you can invent theories that are [i]possible[/i] (given enough inventions, additions, and so on) all day. But the more of these you have, the further you get from the text, and the less credible the theory is.

[quote]You keep saying unlikely. And that's true from Arya's pespective. But if he indeed is a faceless man, why wouldn't he. Arya is safe, somehow he feels obligated to safe Arya.[/quote]

Yes, why would a FM feel obligated to save Arya (without her first saving him, as she does with Jaqen)?

As for 'if he is a FM', that's begging the question again - using the assumption that your conclusion is true in order to justify it.

[quote]Somehow you imagined that he has died.[/quote]

The difference being that I don't need any inventions of my own to imagine that. It's a conclusion that follows directly from what is written in the text.

[quote]That's not likely, he doesn't have to. The only thing he has to do is at some particular moment, when Pate and arya met again in a dramatic situation, shout: "Fear cuts deaper than swords, boy". Or somethinglike this.[/quote]

It'll be a bit damn confusing for anyone who believes that Syrio is dead and can't understand how it makes any sense that he could have survived.

[quote]just so... ;-) but mabe he did.[/quote]

I think the odds are extremely good that he did not. ;)
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I can think of several reasons why Jaqen was in the dungeons, but none of them really makes sense except for these:

1) He got caught by accident.
2) He needed to kill someone in the cells.

"He needed to go with Yoren" makes no sense because he could just have asked Yoren. The Night's Watch needs men. He could say he wanted to get away from King's Landing, he could say he was one of Ned's men who had escaped, he could say he'd rather take the black than fight for Joffrey. Whatever reason he chose, he would have the benefit of not going in chains.

This is also why I don't think Varys hired him. If he needed someone dead in the black cells, there [i]must[/i] have been some easier (and cheaper) way than hiring a Faceless Man. Same goes if he wanted Ned dead. Just poison his water or something. If Varys hired Jaqen to do someone else in, then why did he end up in the cells?

Little as I may like it, I lean more and more towards the theory that he simply got caught murdering someone.
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I have decided to stop giving arguments, you are way to good in crushing them...

It’s the way Martin writes that makes me think that Jaqen= Syrio. The way he transports characters from one place or POV to the other. For example that Sansa hunter in the Vale, Barristan as Arstan, a sandsnake the citadel, Jaqen at the citadel as well, the black brother that Arya killed, . Those are minor characters that swop from one place to the other. He uses them a lot and although I miss them everytime, it surely makes the book more interresting for me. It’s not that I want Syrio to be alive, but I just feel that Martin wouldn’t let this swop-possibility pass.
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