Jaqen H'ghar

[thupple]

I actually re-read this chapter today, and realized that Syrio himself says, that "The first sword of Braavos does not run." And it is clear that that Trant's objective is to kill him. Since Trant is still walking around, I have to say I don't think it looks too good for Syrio.

In the text, his death has not been confirmed but it has been suggested very strongly. Since we are almost into book five now and still have heard nothing else, I'm just accepting that he is gone at this point. If for no other reason than, if I assume the worst, I won't be disappointed if it turns out to be true, and if not, I will be pleasantly surprised.

Still doesn't explain why Jaqen was in the Black Cells, but that whole situation with him, Rorge and Biter could just be a lot simpler than my brain wants it to be. This is what happens when we have 10 years to mull things over! ;)

[Pluggers]

[quote name='thupple' post='1462325' date='Jul 30 2008, 09.47']I actually re-read this chapter today, and realized that Syrio himself says, that "The first sword of Braavos does not run." And it is clear that that Trant's objective is to kill him. Since Trant is still walking around, I have to say I don't think it looks too good for Syrio.

In the text, his death has not been confirmed but it has been suggested very strongly. Since we are almost into book five now and still have heard nothing else, I'm just accepting that he is gone at this point. If for no other reason than, if I assume the worst, I won't be disappointed if it turns out to be true, and if not, I will be pleasantly surprised.

Still doesn't explain why Jaqen was in the Black Cells, but that whole situation with him, Rorge and Biter could just be a lot simpler than my brain wants it to be. This is what happens when we have 10 years to mull things over! ;)[/quote]

I agree. I think it's not as complicated as we've made it out to be. Syrio was killed. Jaqen was arrested. It's as simple as that.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='thupple' post='1462325' date='Jul 30 2008, 18.47']I actually re-read this chapter today, and realized that Syrio himself says, that "The first sword of Braavos does not run."[/quote]
No, no, no, this is going wrong...
The First sword of Braavos does not run, it yields, it is known. I show it.

Everything he says points towards this, the man is slippery as an eel. I bet when Arya couldn’t hear him anymore, he stood there still as a stone. Light as a feather he is, he certainly knows that swords cut deeper than fear. Thus when his pupil was away, he yielded as quick as a snake, because that Trentman looked as strong as a bear.

Really, absolutely no imagination needed here. The man keeps saying this, he tells us again and again what’s going to happen. In fact, from the beginning this whole dancing master thing leads towards this. It’s as clearly as let say, something as common as a spider, using a dwarf to kill a hand. ;)

foolish as a fool, I know, but you can't say I haven't tried. It isn't easy to fight someone that has arguments that are as strong as a bear.

[A wilding]

[quote name='thupple' post='1462325' date='Jul 30 2008, 17.47']Still doesn't explain why Jaqen was in the Black Cells ...[/quote]
I have never seen why people regard this as such an issue. ASoIaF is not MBoF, where certain people are simply unstoppable and unkillable, except by people who are even more unstoppable and unkillable than they are. It seems entirely possible to me that a FM might be unlucky and end up in the black cells as a result.

For example, here is one scenario. Jaqen is doing something in KL when he is interrupted or caught by a patrol of goldcloaks. He pulls some FM mojo to kill them and/or get away. Unfortunately he runs straight into another patrol round the next corner and is overwhelmed by numbers/knocked unconscious by a fluke. Having seen what he is capable of, the goldcloaks are rightly scared of him and he ends up in the black cells.

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='thupple' post='1462325' date='Jul 30 2008, 11.47']I actually re-read this chapter today, and realized that Syrio himself says, that "The first sword of Braavos does not run." And it is clear that that Trant's objective is to kill him. Since Trant is still walking around, I have to say I don't think it looks too good for Syrio.
...[/quote]
Yes, I think you're right. Also, I tend to look at the only other time we've heard such a statement as "so-and-so does not run" - in the case of the KG in Ned's dream - as a pretty good indication of Syrio's ultimate fate. ;)

[Miriel]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1463541' date='Jul 31 2008, 07.46']I have never seen why people regard this as such an issue. ASoIaF is not MBoF, where certain people are simply unstoppable and unkillable, except by people who are even more unstoppable and unkillable than they are. It seems entirely possible to me that a FM might be unlucky and end up in the black cells as a result.

For example, here is one scenario. Jaqen is doing something in KL when he is interrupted or caught by a patrol of goldcloaks. He pulls some FM mojo to kill them and/or get away. Unfortunately he runs straight into another patrol round the next corner and is overwhelmed by numbers/knocked unconscious by a fluke. Having seen what he is capable of, the goldcloaks are rightly scared of him and he ends up in the black cells.[/quote]
It is not that I think that all FM are unstoppable/unkillable etc. (Although I have to admit here I am unfamiliar w/ whatever MBoF is).

It is rather that I don't think GRRM would just throw in a character to serve such an important plot development arc (Arya, her escape, her becoming a FM trainee) just [i]ad hoc[/i] like that, without making it fit more seamlessly into the plot. To me it just seems lame that there is some back story about a FM hanging around, getting caught, and then playing a MAJOR role in the story arc of Arya, a major character herself ... and it was just some random development that no other character ever thought about or mentioned in a conversation AND has no connection to the rest of the story.

(By the way, even though I am not a believer in Syrio=Jaqen, I think this is what gives those who are believers their energy. Syrio "The First Sword of Braavos" just shows up in Westeros and hangs out his teaching-little-girls-sword-fighting-shingle out of nowhere. It is odd and a bit jarring that no one thinks about him or considers it odd he is there doing that. Leading to speculation that maybe most people don't really know he is the FSOB. Leading to speculation that maybe he is there in some kind of disguise/secret mission etc. However, the presence of Jalabar Xho shows that exotic foreign notables can be found in Westeros and so maybe Syrio is just another one of those types. But I see why people get all excited about him.)

This is an intricately plotted story. We are still seeing how neatly Martin has woven it four books in. I am a firm believer that he knows why Jaqen was in the Black Cells--even if we don't--and that it has some kind of rational relationship to the overall story. After all, he knew why Rorge and Biter were there--and their creepy story was a lot more intricate than just "well he was there and not a superman so he got caught."

My random two cents!

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Miriel' post='1463793' date='Jul 31 2008, 17.28']Syrio "The First Sword of Braavos" just shows up in Westeros and hangs out his teaching-little-girls-sword-fighting-shingle out of nowhere. It is odd and a bit jarring that no one thinks about him or considers it odd he is there doing that. Leading to speculation that maybe most people don't really know he is the FSOB.[/quote]No actually he is not the first sword anymore. He was, and then he grew old or whatever and set up shop in the biggest city of Westeros, as a master at arms.

Bravo style fencing isn't that uncommon either, since we got at least Leo Tyrell in Oldtown using it, and Ned just knew what style would be better for Arya.

When Ned chose to have her be taught the sword he reflected on it, and decided for bravo style, then we had him remembering later that Syrio came with excellent references: obviously not everyone is allowed to teach nobility, and "first sword of bravos" on his resume did Syrio some good.

[A wilding]

[quote name='Miriel' post='1463793' date='Jul 31 2008, 16.28']Although I have to admit here I am unfamiliar w/ whatever MBoF is.[/quote]
Sorry, should have been "MBotF" (Malazan Book of the Fallen, a fantasy series stuffed with uber characters).


[quote name='Miriel' post='1463793' date='Jul 31 2008, 16.28']This is an intricately plotted story. We are still seeing how neatly Martin has woven it four books in. I am a firm believer that he knows why Jaqen was in the Black Cells--even if we don't--and that it has some kind of rational relationship to the overall story. After all, he knew why Rorge and Biter were there--and their creepy story was a lot more intricate than just "well he was there and not a superman so he got caught."[/quote]
Yes, I agree. I just don't agree with the idea that the reason he is there must be because "he was planted because he could never have ended up there against his will".

[Miriel]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1463912' date='Jul 31 2008, 11.34']No actually he is not the first sword anymore. He was, and then he grew old or whatever and set up shop in the biggest city of Westeros, as a master at arms.[/quote]
Yes, I should have said EX-FSOB. My bad. My larger point was that he was a person of note and yet just pops up when most other characters are given more elaborate introductions ... with Syrio all we get is that he had served the Sea-Lord for some length of time but now was no longer in his service ... but we do not learn how that came to be/how and why he came to Westeros, etc.

I do not believe Jaqen = Syrio, but I do see why those who do find something a bit odd and/or mysterious about Syrio.

That being said, I find it most likely it can be assumed that he fell out of favor, had to leave Bravos in a hurry or was exiled, and came to Westeros and then had to earn a living somehow.

It is still odd though that everyone in the Lannister faction post the Stark slaughter calls him Arya's dancing master (or wretched dancing master--to give him his full title :) ). You would think somebody would have mentioned that the ex-FSOB had been the one to defeat all those Lannister men at arms and come close to beating Trant. I would at least to expect Trant to blurt this out to Cersei. I mean come on, it sounds better to say "my men and I were seriously whipped by the ex -FSOB" than that "my men and I were seriously whipped by the little Stark girl's dancing master."

My point here is that Cersei [i]et al[/i] seems to believe he was teaching Arya DANCING, not swordplay. So they think he is a DANCING MASTER. The inference here (for me at least) is that not everyone in Westeros/Kings Landing knows who he is.

So, there is at least some little mystery about him ... even if it as simple a mystery as Ned had him specially imported from Braavos and asked him to keep quiet about Arya's nasty lessons.

[Miriel]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1463922' date='Jul 31 2008, 11.39']Sorry, should have been "MBotF" (Malazan Book of the Fallen, a fantasy series stuffed with uber characters).[/quote]
Thanks I will give it a look!

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Miriel' post='1464135' date='Jul 31 2008, 20.48']My point here is that Cersei [i]et al[/i] seems to believe he was teaching Arya DANCING, not swordplay. So they think he is a DANCING MASTER. The inference here (for me at least) is that not everyone in Westeros/Kings Landing knows who he is.

So, there is at least some little mystery about him ... even if it as simple a mystery as Ned had him specially imported from Braavos and asked him to keep quiet about Arya's nasty lessons.[/quote]Imported is downright impossible, the timeline doesn't allow it. There is three days between Ned finding out about Needle and the first lesson.
also:
[i]Ned frowned. The man Syrio Forel had come [b]with an excellent reputation[/b], and his flamboyant Braavosi style was well suited to Arya's slender blade, yet still...[/i]

Reputation is other people knowing about Syrio. I see no contradiction between him having a good reputation and him not being as well known as the kingslayer... Even Jaime had to identify himself to people who has never seen him, anyway, if Ned doesn't shout to the wind that Syrio Forel is Arya's master, it's also normal that when people are said that Arya has a dancing lesson, the guy there is the dancing master.

[Gallivanter]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1463922' date='Jul 31 2008, 12.39']Sorry, should have been "MBotF" (Malazan Book of the Fallen, a fantasy series stuffed with uber characters).



Yes, I agree. I just don't agree with the idea that the reason he is there must be because "he was planted because he could never have ended up there against his will".[/quote]



This is what I believe as well, and in fact the opposite would lessen my appreciation for the series. I am sure that Mr. Martin knew the place that Jaqen, along with Rorge and Biter, would have when he placed them in the black cells, but within the narrative making them have a reason for being there, aside from some random acts, reeks too much of predetermination. It is far more realistic and rewarding to read that the choices the characters make, not some already woven web of fate, dictate what happens to them.

[thupple]

I have to admit, the first several times I read the novels, it never seemed odd to me that Jaqen was in the black cells, or that Yoren took men he had to tie up. And maybe that first instinct was the correct one. It is just that there are so many details to pick up in the rereads that it has made me overzealous about catching them all, and so now I feverishly wonder why why why about everything. (Is there a 12-step group for this series? :rolleyes:)

On the other hand, when I was first reading the series, I thought maybe Jaqen was Syrio based on some basic confusion (on my part) by the fact that their accents and roles in Arya's life were so similar. It is the rereads and analysis here that have brought me clarity on that matter, whatever the truth turns out to be.

I appreciate reading everyone's opinions, because then I don't feel like I am missing any clues. Now I'm content to let it all unfold...at least on this topic!

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Miriel' post='1463793' date='Jul 31 2008, 17.28']This is an intricately plotted story. We are still seeing how neatly Martin has woven it four books in. I am a firm believer that he knows why Jaqen was in the Black Cells--even if we don't--and that it has some kind of rational relationship to the overall story. After all, he knew why Rorge and Biter were there--and their creepy story was a lot more intricate than just "well he was there and not a superman so he got caught."[/quote]
I was just wondering, did someone ever ask GRRM about Jaqen? It's a good question.

[quote]My point here is that Cersei et al seems to believe he was teaching Arya DANCING, not swordplay. So they think he is a DANCING MASTER. The inference here (for me at least) is that not everyone in Westeros/Kings Landing knows who he is.[/quote] It's a very good point, her offside comment about how the [i]dancing [/i]master interferred, doesn't sound as if she even knows that this [i]dancing [/i]master killed some armed men with a wooden stick. Why wouldn't Trant tell proudly that he killed the former [i]first sword of Braavos [/i]who was for some reason protecting Arya. Or at least use this as an excuse why some of his men were killed. Cercei's remark sounds as if the dancing master just didn't cooperate, stood in the way, asked to many questions, not that he was reponsible for killing "Lannisters".

[Jed o' Tarth]

Cersei is very type A. As long as what she wants get's done she's fine. The details don't matter to her. Perfect example, she thinks it was her 'influence' that Jon Arryn was poisoned. She wanted him dead and it happened. She doesn't know that it was Lyssa Arryn and she doesn't care to find out because what she wanted done was accomplished.

She wouldn't have cared to ask if anyone died capturing Syrio, i'm sure she doesn't even realize that anyone did. She wanted Syrio taken (or killed, whatever) and it happened. The details aren't of any consequence to her... thus why she's such a bad Lannister... "Tywin's daughter" my @$$... more like "Tytos's grand-daughter".

[mormont]

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1464903' date='Aug 1 2008, 10.23']I was just wondering, did someone ever ask GRRM about Jaqen? It's a good question.[/quote]

Not to my knowledge. I'm fairly sure he wouldn't answer that one. ;)

[quote]It's a very good point, her offside comment about how the [i]dancing [/i]master interferred, doesn't sound as if she even knows that this [i]dancing [/i]master killed some armed men with a wooden stick. Why wouldn't Trant tell proudly that he killed the former [i]first sword of Braavos [/i]who was for some reason protecting Arya.[/quote]

Because he doesn't know who Syrio is?

There is no reason at all that Trant would recognise the First Sword of Braavos, current or former. There is similarly no indication that Cersei knows who he was - or that either of them even know his name. Which is odd, if he was taken prisoner. If that had happened, surely they would have identified him? So I tend to take Cersei's remark as further proof [i]against[/i] Syrio=Jaqen, actually.

ps you never know. If FM can fake their death, maybe that can make S=J work. ;)

[Coffee]

[quote name='mormont' post='1465873' date='Aug 1 2008, 18.21']ps you never know. If FM can fake their death, maybe that can make S=J work. ;)[/quote]

I can see something like, Trant makes a cut, Syrio starts bleeding, Trant assumes he's hit Syrio, when in fact, he cut air and Syrio is using his FM skills to fake Trant out.

[Miriel]

[quote name='mormont' post='1465873' date='Aug 1 2008, 18.21']Because he doesn't know who Syrio is?

There is no reason at all that Trant would recognise the First Sword of Braavos, current or former. There is similarly no indication that Cersei knows who he was - or that either of them even know his name. Which is odd, if he was taken prisoner. If that had happened, surely they would have identified him? So I tend to take Cersei's remark as further proof [i]against[/i] Syrio=Jaqen, actually.

ps you never know. If FM can fake their death, maybe that can make S=J work. ;)[/quote]
But I am not a believer in Syrio=Jaqen!!!

I just am saying that there is enough .. oddness ... swirling around the Syrio character that I can see where the ardent Syrio=Jaqen believers get their energy from.

And hence I began discussing the various things I found odd about Syrio. Foremost among surely being the whole oddness of him wiping out a contingent of the Lannister men-at-arms. When Jaime and everyone was scouring the city looking for Arya (remember Cersei wanted her found she was a valuable hostage) there must have been discussion of how she escaped. And someone must surely have wondered how her dancing master killed all those armed men?

Odd stuff that ... it would make me wonder.

But I agree, Syrio is not Jaqen, Jaqen is not Syrio!

[Vindor Clegane]

ok ok, I asked GRRM today. I'm a personal friend btw. He said Jaqen was in the black cells because he was arrested for public urination. There you have it people! Never wouldve guessed that one. lol

[mormont]

Miriel: yeah, the last sentence wasn't addressed to you. :)

I agree I can sort of see where people at least get the idea of S=J.