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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)


Werthead

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[quote name='Rinso' post='1474606' date='Aug 10 2008, 23.25']Which is kinda strange, given the fact that Selmy described Rhaegar as a bookish and silent type of person before he began training himself to be a warrior. The bookish and silent guys usually are not hotheads and tend to think things ahead.
Rhaegar however [i]does [/i]seem like he doesn't think (or doesn't care) about consequences, I agree. :/[/quote]

Trust me, you can be bookish and silent and still have your head in the clouds and not really think about actual reallife consequences (It doesn't mean you don't think, just not about the grounded things that matter, like money or time or powerful enemies who could mean your death. More about abstract things. I know this because I'm that type of person XD). Rhaegar doesn't exactly sound like a neurotic planner.
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[quote name='SkyPirate' post='1474617' date='Aug 10 2008, 17.47']Trust me, you can be bookish and silent and still have your head in the clouds and not really think about actual reallife consequences (It doesn't mean you don't think, not just about the grounded things that matter, like money or time or powerful enemies who could mean your death. More about abstract things. I know this because I'm that type of person XD). Rhaegar doesn't exactly sound like a neurotic planner.[/quote]

I am not talking about neurotic planning, but more about a normal and reasonable consideration to the situation before acting.

I am the bookish & silent type as well... eh, maybe I'm not very silent, but I am bookish enough and I seldom do something before I think about it well in advance (speaking of important things here, of course, not about small everyday tasks - and such things like the abduction / escape with Lyanna or her crowining as his Queen of Beauty and Love are important and Rhaegar showed that he just jumps headfirst into the situation with them).
But you brought a good point about the abstract thinking. As much as he sounds bookish & silent, he is much more the abstract type.
Yet still, his lack of common consideration amazes me.

I guess it depends from the person, at the end.
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Brandon was a gallant, Rhaegar was an ideal. Of course I still think he was motivated largely by prophecy, so those of you who read his abduction of Lyanna as solely a grand romantic gesture will likely continue to disagree with me, but I tend to think his move was more of the "The best of bad options" ilk than anything resembling Brandon's rash heroism.
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Let me first of all say that we actually don´t know very much about Rhaegar. But I don´t think he needed to force Lyanna to come with him, she was probably more than game to follow. And actually when one thinks about this with the uproar and the consquenses of the "abduction", what choice did he have? Since he seemed to have been an intelligent fellow he probably foresaw that some kind of trouble would arise, but if he believed in the prophesy what other paths could he have chosen? If he had asked for Lyanna´s hand in marriage, would he have gotten it? I think not. He simply didn´t think he had a choice.
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Would the Starks have refused an alliance with the Targaryens? Would it have been safe to do so? Catelyn wasn't averse to Sansa marrying royal Joffrey Baratheon in GoT a generation later (admittedly, she wasn't around during the Rhaegar hootenanny)

Aerys, on the other hand, certainly didn't react well to Brandon's little trip to KL. Was that solely because Brandon was trying to arrange a fight with Rhaegar, or was there an anti-Starks-in-general element to it? Would Aerys have prohibited Rhaegar from Lyanna--perhaps for Dorne's sake?
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Something that caught my eye in one of Ned's POV chapters:

[quote]"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like..."
[b]Ned's mouth tightened in anger.[/b] "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods of men."[/quote]

If we assume that the Wylla story is just a cover, why is Ned angry here?
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Symeon Star-Eyes' post='1490205' date='Aug 22 2008, 01.04']If we assume that the Wylla story is just a cover, why is Ned angry here?[/quote]
Because Robert is rubbing his nose in a moral failure that he would actually be innocent of. It's human nature to be rankled by injustice, even if the circumstances are largely the result of one's own conscious decisions. Also, he doesn't want Robert thinking about this subject, he wants him to forget about it, especially when Robert is still talking about how killing Rhaegar only once was not enough.
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Because he knows Wylla isn't Jon's mother and he doesn't like to lie (hence his famous "He's my blood!" to Catelyn when she asked if Ashara was Jon's mother). He has to tell Robert something, though, and everything Robert says about how he hates Rhaegar only reinforces the importance of Robert's never knowing that Jon is Rhaegar's son (if he is).
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Speaking of describing Lyanna--

We should probably throw together a run down of characters who have the most direct knowledge of her character, and more importantly, persons who would most likely have the most reliable accounts of any birth or marriage prior to her death-- and therefore persons who could divulge information on the R+L= J scenario. (This has probably been done before)

Easiest First:

At the time of her death we know these characters to have been present:

Martyn Cassel (deceased)
Theo Wull (deceased)
Ethan Glover (deceased)
Ser Mark Ryswell (deceased)
Lord Dustin (deceased)
Howland Reed (Alive to our knowledge)
Ser Arthur Dayne (deceased)
Ser Oswell Whent (deceased)
Ser Gerold Hightower (deceased)
Lord Eddard Stark (deceased)

We can assume that Dayne, Whent, and Hightower had at least some minimal knowledge of Lyanna's condition and situation prior to her death, although the duration of their guardianship is unknown. It is possible that one of them could have passed along information about Lyanna's condition prior to the battle to persons who were not present at the Tower of Joy, but this seems an unlikely source of information. We can assume the 5 gentlemen on the Stark side of the battle did not live to see Lyanna, or pass along any information, so their contribution is near impossible. As only Howland Reed and Ned survived the battle and witnessed Lyanna's death (unless the theory about Dayne being pardoned and having his death faked is true), they are the only people who we know for sure had an opportunity to learn about the abduction / escape from Lyanna directly. This leaves at present time only Howland Reed alive to give a first person account, and opens the question of whether Ned had ever told anyone else the whole truth of her death, creating an opportunity for second hand information.

Who else do we think was present or privy to information during the 9 or 10 months between Harrenhal and Lyanna's death? Do we think that Rhaegar might have told someone about Lyanna's condition while he was fighting on the Trident?

**Side note! I went back and looked at the text in aGoT and Ned says following her death "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his." Who is this "they" with only the two of them left alive? I assume it could have been the servants... but i figure i might throw it out there for consideration.
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Auburn Dragon, Ned and Benjen would have known if Lyanna had been married before. They are both, unfortunately, incommunicado at this time. By the way, Martin has said the war broke out [b]a year or two after Harrenhal[/b]--not just a couple of months (see very helpful essay on "What Happened When During Robert's Rebellion" at the Citadel. Old Nan also probably knew the Stark kids pretty well.

Ashara Dayne might know something about Lyanna's situation; Meera's story of Harrenhal sounds like Ned and Ashara were drawn to each other there. If Lyanna and Ashara were--in different ways, let me add--both fond of Ned, that might have made a bond between them.

According to Edric Dayne, the Lord of Starfall, Wylla is living at Starfall now and allowing people to think she's Jon Snow's mother--and Ned never did a thing to stop that. I think she might, now that Ned is dead, be the best source of information about Rhaegar and Lyanna if she were willing to talk about it. The fact that she is not running around claiming that Ned's bastard is Rhaegar's son suggests that she, like Ned, is trying to protect Jon.

Cersei seems to think that Ashara killed herself shortly after Ned returned Arthur's sword after the end of the war (she suggests that Ashara suicided because Ned killed her brother or because he took her child). This tells us zip about Lyanna, but it lets us know that Cersei was aware of what Ned, at least, was doing after the war. Perhaps Cersei, who wanted Rhaegar herself, kept tabs on her wolfmaid rival.

Howland Reed certainly knows something, although since he got to the ToJ when Ned did (quite some time after Rhaegar's death), there wouldn't be much he could say. He doesn't seem to have entered Lyanna's death chamber until after she died (GoT, Ned PoV, pp. 43-4 in American paperback edition). Martin has said there will never be a Howland PoV.

"They" might include Wylla--I think it's quite likely that a wetnurse was there. It's possible Lyanna would not have been able to nurse--not all new mothers can--and if all this was so Rhaegar would have a third child, steps would probably be taken to insure that child's well-being. (On the other hand, we've never heard of any medical types being there.) Probably when Rhaegar originally staffed the ToJ (if that's where Lyanna was), it had more people than it did at the end. News of his death might have made some of the people there leave, since he would no longer be able to protect them from Aerys if Aerys chose to be angry about the set-up there.

I don't think Rhaegar told anyone "about Lyanna's condition" at the Trident because, in spite of the general interest we note about who Jon's mother might be, no one at all has suggested that perhaps R+L=baby. This is what happens when you don't teach sex education in the public schools.
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In a decade of reading these books and not far off that hearing about this theory I just suddenly realised something I hadn't thought of before. It must have been discussed to death in these threads though:

Are there any theories given as to the curious fact that Rhaegar sent [i]three[/i] members of the Kingsguard, arguably the three best of them as well, to defend Lyanna? Lyanna and Rhaegar's child would presumably be, in Rhaegar's eyes, the 'third head of the dragon', but he/she wouldn't be the Prince Who Was Promised. We know from Dany's vision in ACoK that he already thought Aegon was the PWWP and presumably Rhaenys was the other head of the dragon.

So why send three Kingsguard to defend Lyanna and their child, and only leave [i]one[/i] (Jaime) to defend Rhaenys and Aegon in King's Landing? And that one who was the newest, most untested and who wouldn't actually be in a position to protect Rhaenys and Aegon as he'd be (supposedly) defending Aerys? It can't be because of the inheritance of the crown, because it would fall to Viserys (safe on Dragonstone at that moment) before falling on Aegon and then Rhaegar and Lyanna's child (and only then if they were married) should Aerys and Rhaegar both die.

I can't believe I've never thought of that before as it's obviously a major point, and must have cropped up in these discussions before.
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Well, SFDanny has used Rhaegar's sending three great KG to guard Lyanna as a point in favor of Rhaegar and Lyanna having been married. I don't remember anyone ever noting how relatively unguarded Aegon and Rhaenys were, though. Seems to suggest that he'd given up on them as part of the prophecy? Or he could've figured that the Red Keep's regular complement of guards (I mean those left there over the general course of the war) were enough? Or he was just an idiot.

(The inheritance would go to Rhaegar's children before going to Rhaegar's brother Viserys, but Aegon and Rhaenys still come ahead of any potential child with Lyanna, unless he had plans to set Elia aside?)
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I think that Rhaegar assumed that the capitol would remain safe and Elia and their children with it. He didn't plan for his own death, after all, so I suppose it's in character that he didn't plan for the Sack. I'm also assuming that there were more troops than just the Kingsguard at KL.

But Lyanna and her child, if she had one, would be utterly without protection during Rhaegar's absence--which, of course, turned out to be a permanent one. At the time Rhaegar was making these decisions (obviously before the Trident), it would seem that she and her child were far more vulnerable than Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were.

Lady Blackfish, even if Rhaegar set Elia aside her children could still inherit the crown unless he contended that he was not their father.
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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1474535' date='Aug 10 2008, 15.15']Rhaegar also strikes me as someone who didn't think ahead.[/quote]


Strange, considering that he is described as someone extremely composed and deliberate.
Barristan describes Rhaegar´s character as: [i]Able, that above all, dutiful, determined, singleminded[/i].
Or like the story how he basically came out of his mother´s womb able to read and how the maesters was awed by his wits, that he never played games like other children, and suddenly one day reach the conclusion that he must be a warrior. Then he proceed to excel with that too, despite not loving “the song of swords”. And while he Rhaegar was reclusive and liked his books and harp, he has obviously no problems leading people and had the love of and admiration of his future subjects.
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[quote name='Werthead' post='1493969' date='Aug 25 2008, 14.35']Are there any theories given as to the curious fact that Rhaegar sent [i]three[/i] members of the Kingsguard, arguably the three best of them as well, to defend Lyanna? Lyanna and Rhaegar's child would presumably be, in Rhaegar's eyes, the 'third head of the dragon', but he/she wouldn't be the Prince Who Was Promised. We know from Dany's vision in ACoK that he already thought Aegon was the PWWP and presumably Rhaenys was the other head of the dragon.[/quote]

My theory:

Remember Gerold Hightower was still in King's Landing during the "trial" of Rickard Stark, when Rhaegar was presumably out honeymooning. I've always imagined that Rheagar only took his best friend Arthur Dayne with him to guard his new bride, or, if they decided to head to Summerhall, none of the KG at all.

In such an event, Hightower and possibly Whent (and Dayne, if he wasn't already with Rhaegar) were sent by Aerys, or went on their own volition to bring back Rheagar because they knew only he could calm Aerys down and stop the rebellion. By then Lyanna would have been with child, and Rhaegar realized that he couldn't move Lyanna do to her condition, nor could he summon more troops to protect her, as if they were indeed in Dorne then it would be tricky getting Dornish spears to guard a wife who might be seen as a replacement for Elia.

So he was left with the difficult choice of what to do with these Kingsguard, and with Lyanna. They were the only swords available to guard her, while Aegon and Rhaenys were safely behind the walls at Kings Landing, and at the time defended by four of the Kingsguard (he took three with him to the Trident, where he assumed he would end the rebellion once and for all).
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I have been a somewhat supporter of the L+R=J theory for a while. Although Ive never read any thing on this particular thread, I was reading AGoT earlier, and caught a part that is another link to this theory that I never thought about. Im sure every part of this has been mentioned before, but Im going to post it anyway.

Jon and Arya supposedly look alot alike. It is mentioned numerous times by numerous characters. It is brought up so much that it seems there is a point to it. In the first half of AGoT it is mentioned by Jon, Arya, Sansa, Catelyn, Ned.....
When Ned is talking with Arya about needle in her bedchamber. He mentions how she has the "wolf blood" like Lyanna. Then he says she even looks alot like her. So if Arya looks alot like Lyanna, and Arya looks alot like Jon, then I would assume that Jon looks alot like Lyanna.
No ground breaking news, but I never thought about it before.
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So we finally have a day without any posts in this particular thread,huh? We badly need ADwD..

Anyways..i would just like to ask people who are against this theory...how they would go about covering up all the "clues" in the text so far assuming he/she is GRRM? You have to admit there are some major pointers to the theory..
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