Prince Who Was Promised Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 [quote name='Prince of the North' post='1511623' date='Sep 9 2008, 16.47']I think such a scenario could give new/more meaning to Dany's vision of Rhaegar in the House of the Undying, too. That is, [i]if[/i] the woman in the vision is Elia and [i]if[/i] the baby she is holding is Aegon then maybe Rhaegar's looking at Dany and telling her "there must be another" is actually him telling her [i]that it's her[/i]? Correct me if I'm wrong but Rhaegar's and Elia's two children would have already been born (assuming Aegon is the babe in the vision) [i]but Dany would not have been born yet[/i]. Just a thought... :dunno:[/quote] When Rhaegar said "There must be one more," I don't think Dany was born yet, so he went off and did his thing with Lyanna. Then, with Rhaenys having her head bashed agaisnt the wall, and Aegon likely dead, that would obviously leave Dany to be involved for the "dragon with three heads" thingy. I believe the riders will be Dany, Jon, and someone else...maybe Bran (flying dreams, but that could mean warging) or Tyrion, who seems the most likely choice (a love of dragons, and going towards the east) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Prince Who Was Promised, Martin has said that that is Elia and Aegon in the vision with Rhaegar. And, yes, Dany wasn't born until after the war ended and Rhaegar was dead. Since she sees this as a vision, I suppose it's possible that Rhaegar was telling her she was the "another" he thought he needed--although it's worth noting that Maester Aemon, also a Targ, didn't realize that until much later (in FFC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratonice Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 [quote name='Prince Who Was Promised' post='1511781' date='Sep 10 2008, 02.04']I believe the riders will be Dany, Jon, and someone else...maybe Bran (flying dreams, but that could mean warging) or Tyrion, who seems the most likely choice (a love of dragons, and going towards the east)[/quote] Shireen with her dreams (or maybe nightmares...at least they seem to scare her) of dragons should qualify her for consideration for some role relating to the dragons too. She's had too little time on screen yet to be a serious candidate for dragon rider at this point, but I can't help thinking she will have something of signigicance to add before it's over. Edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='Shewoman' post='1512042' date='Sep 9 2008, 23.01']Prince Who Was Promised, Martin has said that that is Elia and Aegon in the vision with Rhaegar. And, yes, Dany wasn't born until after the war ended and Rhaegar was dead. Since she sees this as a vision, I suppose it's possible that Rhaegar was telling her she was the "another" he thought he needed--although it's worth noting that Maester Aemon, also a Targ, didn't realize that until much later (in FFC).[/quote] Shewoman, I'm not saying that Rhaegar actually [i]knew it was Dany[/i] that would be the third head of the dragon. I still think he thought he needed to get the third head somehow and that he already had the first two. I think it's important to remember that [i]it was a vision[/i] and that, in the context of the vision, it [i]could[/i] have been Rhaegar simply saying that "there must be another" but that it was no accident that it was Dany who saw this vision and heard this particular message. If that even makes sense...I'm not making myself very clear... Maybe it's more a clue to us readers than anything else? I don't know... Anyway, the more I think about it the more I think the only one right now we can be reasonably sure will be a dragon head is Dany. I really don't think Jon will be and here's why: if R+L=J (I think it does) then Jon is an attempt to fulfill a prophecy. I think Martin has a recurring theme in these books that you can't [i]make[/i] prophecies come true. They will or won't come to pass of their own accord, so to speak. That's why Jon won't be a dragon head. Dany was not born as an active attempt to make a prophecy come to fruition and, lo and behold, she hatched dragons! Rhaenys and Aegon were active attempts by Rhaegar to fulfill the prophecy but they ended up having different destinies (to put it mildly). I think Jon will play an important role in things to come but I don't think his destiny is to fulfill Rhaegar's prophecy [i]for the precise reason that he is an active attempt to do so[/i]. Two more dragon heads will present themselves but I think we'll be a bit surprised by who they turn out to be ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 How can you be sure that Aegon and Rhaenys were attempts on Rhaegar's part to fulfill a prophecy? As a Targaryen prince, he'd be expected to produce more heirs to the throne. He does seem to have thought that they would be heads of the dragon, but that doesn't necessarily mean he conceived them for that reason. Can you provide examples of Martin's theme of people not being able to make prophecies come true? By the way, Rhaegar apparently expected his third child to be a girl (he seems to have been mirroring the family of one of the earlier Targs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='Shewoman' post='1514167' date='Sep 11 2008, 13.54']How can you be sure that Aegon and Rhaenys were attempts on Rhaegar's part to fulfill a prophecy? As a Targaryen prince, he'd be expected to produce more heirs to the throne. He does seem to have thought that they would be heads of the dragon, but that doesn't necessarily mean he conceived them for that reason.[/quote] So, he conceived Rhaenys and Aegon as heirs to the throne but also just happened to think they were going to be "heads of the dragon" for his prophecy? I think it's quite reasonable to [i]assume[/i] (yes, I said it :)) that Rhaegar had them to try to fulfill his prophecy - ymmv... [quote name='Shewoman' post='1514167' date='Sep 11 2008, 13.54']Can you provide examples of Martin's theme of people not being able to make prophecies come true?[/quote] Hmm...let's see...Summerhall, Marwyn's statement about prophecy in general, Melisandre's (imo) shenanigans with trying to prop up Stannis as AAR, Cercei's situation of trying to [i]prevent[/i] a prophecy from coming true and, quite possibly, only hastening its fulfillment (self-fulfilling prophecy? Maybe...). I'm sure there are more possible "suggestions" - that's just a very quick smattering. Oh, I think there's definitely a theme running throughout ASoIaF about prophecy being a very slippery thing and never quite working out as expected. Again, ymmv... [quote name='Shewoman' post='1514167' date='Sep 11 2008, 13.54']By the way, Rhaegar apparently expected his third child to be a girl (he seems to have been mirroring the family of one of the earlier Targs).[/quote] Absolutely! He also expected his third child to be the "third head of the dragon". Maybe he was right (in the context and timing within the vision) about the third head of the dragon being a girl but was wrong about the child being his? As I think Aemon's thoughts about the prophecy toward the end of his life allude to, they had the general gist of things right but there were still many details that they didn't know or had wrong. As I said, I'm just toying around with the idea that none of Rhaegar's children will end up being "heads of the dragon". Two of them are dead and I think the third (Jon) won't ride a dragon or whatever being a "dragon head" entails [i]for the express reason that he was conceived to do so.[/i] That sort of thing just doesn't work ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Who Was Promised Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Why does he mention the Three Heads with the PWWP? Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='Prince Who Was Promised' post='1514411' date='Sep 11 2008, 15.43']Why does he mention the Three Heads with the PWWP? Interesting...[/quote] That's a good question! I believe there is a SSM where he states that AAR and the PtwP are the same person but that doesn't necessarily mean this person will be a "dragon head". Is this another detail that Rhaegar, et al. had wrong? Will the "three dragon heads" [i]combined[/i] be AAR/PtwP this time around? Are the three dragons "Lightbringer" this time around? :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Who Was Promised Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 If so, where is the original Lightbringer? GRRm seems to saying something when he connects the Three Heads with the PWWP. If he was trying only to state the song and the PWWP, there is no need for the Heads. What if the Heads are AAR? it's probably not likely but I heard it somewhere on the forums, and what other reason is there for the connection. Even in the sample chapter from ADWD, there is a foriegn refference of the Heads. Mean anyhting, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-421 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 What if Jon is AAR? Then after Melissandre kills Stannis and Jon goes to Dany, he can take his place as one of the heads of he dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Who Was Promised Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I like that idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrafna Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 [quote name='TK-421' post='1514836' date='Sep 12 2008, 11.11']What if Jon is AAR? Then after Melissandre kills Stannis and Jon goes to Dany, he can take his place as one of the heads of he dragon.[/quote] i agree jon is aar. maybe aa made the first valyrian sword obviously it would have been magical back in the day, certain spells and techniques are needed to make one of these blades. so light bringer is longclaw. valyrian steel= dragon sword as mentioned by samwell in affc. perhaps melissandre has left stannis' side because she has now come to realise she was wrong about him. there is no need for her to kill him, he has already seen himself in the flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspasia Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 <<If so, where is the original Lightbringer? >> Isn't this kind of like asking "Where's Brandon the Builder's screwdriver"? I mean, it's a LEGEND. It may be truth-based, but guaranteed to be exaggerated and changed over centuries. Even if there was indeed an original Lightbringer, there's just no reason to think that it has a current location, even less that such a real current location ought to be revealed. Where's the original Faceless Man's flashlight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheEnchanter Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 [quote name='hrafna' post='1514992' date='Sep 11 2008, 23.21']i agree jon is aar. maybe aa made the first valyrian sword obviously it would have been magical back in the day, certain spells and techniques are needed to make one of these blades. so light bringer is longclaw. valyrian steel= dragon sword as mentioned by samwell in affc. perhaps melissandre has left stannis' side because she has now come to realise she was wrong about him. there is no need for her to kill him, he has already seen himself in the flames.[/quote] Hi there, first post from me, well.. i just found it interesting that Longclaw has an analogy with Lightbringer. It has been recovered from fire. Mormont just seems to have forgotten it for a long long time and then after Jon defeated the wight with fire and the whole floor was destroyed, it seemed to be kind of predetermined for Mormont to rescue that sword and to give it to Jon. Well, that would match with Jon as Azor Ahai... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuraz Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 it's been awhile, but I think I recall Eddard (when he was reflecting on things in the black cells to himself) only mentioning that he hadn't told Jon who his "mother" was, and not both his mother and father, which could imply that he is in fact Jon's father as previously thought at the beginning of the series. why would he have only thought of Jon's mother, if his father is a Targaryen prince? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Kuraz, I can't find anywhere where Ned feels shame for not having told Jon who Jon's mother (or father) was. This is the main quotation I can come up with: Ned is in jail and "the thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words’. (It's from a Ned PoV, obviously, p. 524 or 628, depending on your edition). Ned does ask Varys to deliver a letter for him, which Varys tells him he will read and use as he sees fit. It is widely assumed on this board that Ned's shame involves the fact that he has not told Jon about his heritage and now, unless he's willing for Varys to read it, may never be able to do so. It's possible that one of those pesky promises he made to Lyanna was to let Jon know who his parents were, although I tend to doubt that myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Onion Knight Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote]i agree jon is aar. maybe aa made the first valyrian sword obviously it would have been magical back in the day, certain spells and techniques are needed to make one of these blades. so light bringer is longclaw. valyrian steel= dragon sword as mentioned by samwell in affc. perhaps melissandre has left stannis' side because she has now come to realise she was wrong about him. there is no need for her to kill him, he has already seen himself in the flames.[/quote] I dont see how anyone can feel that jon is aar or that longclaw is lightbringer. For starters, jon [i]burned[/i] his hand when he reached into the flaming curtains to destroy the white, while dany walked into a blazing inferno and comes out unscathed. Also if Stannis's lightbringer is fake because it doesnt radiate heat as maester aemon states, then for sure longclaw isnt lightbringer. It was pulled out of a fire, but thats it. It seems quite clear that dany is aar AND the pwwp as they are almost for sure the same person. The pwwp is like a title, a description of who someone is, and aa is the name of that someone. Melisandre verifies this when aemon asks her " then where is the pwwp" and she says "He is standind here before you, Stannis is aar" or something like that. So it def seems that aar and pwwp are the same person, and that person is dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
althaz Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 [quote name='Greycox' post='1470407' date='Aug 7 2008, 04.44']Warning: may contain idle speculation, faulty logic through induction, and controversial assumptions ;) [b][u]Sansa[/u]:[/b] The Sansa/Jon relationship isn’t developed well, but we get the feeling that Sansa’s opinion of Jon parallels that of Catelyn’s. One difference is that Sansa is the dreamy type – emphatically believing in chivalry and desiring to be on the receiving end of the romantic and noble acts she’s heard about in songs and stories. She’s the ultimate ‘lady’; beautiful, gracious, & loving - - tailor-made for a benevolent royal life. [u]Speculative Connection[/u]: Sansa represents the emotional & romantic side of Jon’s mom. She may have yearned to be part of something bigger, and could have easily been wooed by a prince or lordling that promised deeds of honor worthy of song and legend. She may be poised to be the queen (of love & beauty, at least) ;)[/quote] Umm...Jon and Sansa get along quite well. Sansa in fact specifically goes out of her way to say how much she misses Jon and "how sweet it would be to see him again" in Feast. Her opinion of Jon is obviously not influenced by Catelyn, who hates him (for that and many other reasons I loathe the woman and hope one of her children causes her true end). Other than that i like the way you approached the question :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodoftheDragon Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 [quote name='hrafna' post='1514992' date='Sep 12 2008, 00.21']i agree jon is aar. maybe aa made the first valyrian sword obviously it would have been magical back in the day, certain spells and techniques are needed to make one of these blades. so light bringer is longclaw. valyrian steel= dragon sword as mentioned by samwell in affc. perhaps melissandre has left stannis' side because she has now come to realise she was wrong about him. there is no need for her to kill him, he has already seen himself in the flames.[/quote] I for one am partial to the theory that Daenerys is the Prince that was Promised... ...forgive me if I'm wrong, AAR = PTWP, right? I could be wrong, I just realized, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodoftheDragon Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 [quote name='hrafna' post='1514992' date='Sep 12 2008, 00.21']i agree jon is aar. maybe aa made the first valyrian sword obviously it would have been magical back in the day, certain spells and techniques are needed to make one of these blades. so light bringer is longclaw. valyrian steel= dragon sword as mentioned by samwell in affc. perhaps melissandre has left stannis' side because she has now come to realise she was wrong about him. there is no need for her to kill him, he has already seen himself in the flames.[/quote] I for one am partial to the theory that Daenerys is the Prince that was Promised... ...forgive me if I'm wrong, AAR = PTWP, right? I could be wrong, I just realized, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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