Sansa is the worst person in Westeros

[kettleblack]

[quote name='Olenna' post='1476115' date='Aug 11 2008, 21.34']Anyway, didn't she atone for it by saving Dontos?[/quote]

somehow i don't think that thought would up her spirits very much.

[Kuzbad]

That's some major Sansa-hating!

Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm/deliberate hyperbole in a few of the more recent posts, but do people really think an 11-year-old is perfectly capable of understand the repercussions of their actions? heck, most days I think my 16-year-old sister doesn't think more than about 30 seconds ahead (and I know I didn't at that age!)

Kids do stupid things and don't think ahead--that's part of being a child. A child like Sansa grew up in a very insulated environment filled with romantic tales of chivalry on one side and the strict honor of her father. That most people operate outside of those frameworks was a shock. She didn't do anything maliciously imho, just stupidly and self-centeredly. Thus are pre-teens.

I'd probably be in complete denial too if I had played a role in the beheading of my father, had my mother+entire family murdered, everyone I ever knew murdered in fact, my home burned to the ground, my pet killed, been beaten and humiliated, forced to marry a disgusting dwarf, and then to top it all off, seen the one person who seemed to be trying to help me (in a creepy pedophilic kind of way!) throw my aunt down a mountain? That's pretty rough :P

[Burr]

Yah, Sansa was a spoiled brat, but now I suspect she's no longer very spoiled nor a brat, and she certainly understands what life really is like now. I'd bet she and Arya would have a heck of a lot more to talk about these days, ya? I like little Sansa. I hate she murdered her daddy, and I hope she can oevrcome the shock when she realizes what she did. Any normal person would kill themself, i think. But then, she's no longer normal. Never know what'll happen to her.


I really loved it when, after she tries to warn Margeory and is blown off she pretty much quits wqorrying about it: Oh well, I warned you, DUMBASS!

[Markus]

[quote name='It is Known' post='1476041' date='Aug 12 2008, 03.05']My copy of A Game of Thrones is on loan at the moment so I cant check these points... but just how important was Sansa's role in the events following Roberts death?[/quote]

GRRM has commented on this. The way he intended it was that no single person should be blamed for Ned's downfall but that Sansa certainly played[i] "a role".[/i]

Apparently Sansa knew detaills of Ned's plans such as [i]"when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move".[/i]

[fireface]

We thought twin incest was bad, but L+R≠J... It was actually S+S=J!

Plus, show me any pre/teen that will not lie to their family to protect their friends/creepy fiancees.

Plus, even at 20 i still blame most of my fights with my sisters on them. They are cranky.

Ya'll got unrealistic ideas of kids.

[a_homeless_harpy]

Believe me or not, Sansa will be the next evil queen of Westernos and she'll give Cercei to Qyburn. Who killed Tywin? Sansa. Who maimed Tyrion during the battle? Sansa. Who cut off Jaime's hand? Needless to say - Sansa in disguise.

[Nymeria Sand]

[quote]I think it's safe to say that Sansa has become less naive too.[/quote]
Let's agree to disagree, Markus. I know I'm in the minority and that a lot of people like Sansa and have great hopes for her. I hope they're right, really. :)

[quote]Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm/deliberate hyperbole in a few of the more recent posts, but do people really think an 11-year-old is perfectly capable of understand the repercussions of their actions?[/quote]
Yes. I have an 11 year old, too. Not only are they capable of understanding, they're perfectly capable of lying about it and pushing the responsibility onto anyone but themselves.

[quote]Believe me or not, Sansa will be the next evil queen of Westernos and she'll give Cercei to Qyburn.[/quote]
A Homeless Harpy, that's actually a great idea. :P

[Falstaff]

I can't tell if this guy is joking or seriously stupid.

[zerotonin]

It wasn't Sansa's fault! How was she to know that the beautiful sorceress was actually an Other?

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Soloman Grundy' post='1476161' date='Aug 11 2008, 23.26']I really loved it when, after she tries to warn Margeory and is blown off she pretty much quits wqorrying about it: Oh well, I warned you, DUMBASS![/quote]
Umm....yeah. Those Tyrells obviously didn't take her warnings very seriously. They certainly didn't take any drastic steps to deal with the problem, like regicide. Nosiree!

What bothers me the most about Sansa was the way she murdered those innocent miller's kids, just so she wouldn't look foolish in front of her Ironborn crew. Pure egotism! At least when she pushed her brother out the window she was acting in self-defense, in a way.

[Night Watchman]

Anyone remember when Sansa had Davos's fingers shortened and then had the guile to call it mercy?

What about when she used her father's own sword to chop off his head and then had the same sword melted down to give to her son and grandson?

I forgot about the time when Sansa ate her own twin in the womb.

[Zweihander]

[quote name='Markus' post='1474932' date='Aug 11 2008, 00.52']Sansa is presented as something of a class-conscious snob. Hardly out of character for the setting and completely understandable considering Cat's drawing of a distinct line between her own children and bastard Jon. However, this isn't a characteristic which endears her to most readers, in particular when contrasted with Arya's, and consequently it colors the perception they've of Sansa.

Matters are made worse when Sansa lying about Joffrey bullying Mycah is associated with the death of Lady and Mycah, and when Cersei credits Sansa spilling the beans about Ned's plans for the success of Cersei's coup against Ned, and so indirectly for Ned's death. The fact that Sansa's remorse about her role in these events is limited doesn't help matters either.

Of course, Sansa never intended the deaths of Lady, Mycah and Ned and probably couldn't even foresee such dire consequences. So the actual blame has to lie with Joffrey, Robert and Cersei in Lady's case, with Joffrey, Cersei and Sandor in Mycah's case and with Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger and Slynt in Ned's case, and not with Sansa.

The fact that Sansa is put in difficult situations, being forced to choose between her sister and her future husband and seeing her dreams of her future dissolve for reasons which are not properly explained to her by anybody is also not given the weight which it probably deserves.

Sansa not reflecting her role in the deaths of Lady and Ned can probably be explained as a defense mechanism, at least to some degree. It would've been very hard to bear for a young girl to think her own actions played a role in these deaths. Tyrion said in AGoT that:[i] "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it", [/i]and the same applies to young girls.

Still, while one can blame the actual deaths associated with Sansa's actions on other people, and while some of the responsibility for the way Sansa acts has to be laid at the door of her parents for the way she was educated, there is no arguing around the fact that Sansa shouldn't have lied to protect Joffrey against Arya's accusations and shouldn't have disobeyed her father just because she wanted to marry Joffrey. In fact, even her judgement about still wanting to marry Joffrey after she had witnessed his behaviour with Mycah and Arya has to be questioned.[/quote]
Okay, totally resurrecting a long-dead thread here, but I loved reading this post and to be honest it shocked me that so many people out there really dislike Sansa. Whats' weird is that I myself really can't stand her, but I had always assumed that she was "meant to be liked" or something. (I've only just discovered this series a few weeks ago -- yes, more than ten years late I know -- and have rapidly become utterly obsessed with it! :D )

I agree with the above in that one must account for Sansa's age when judging her actions, but to be honest I think when I really began despising her was during the incident with her wolf. Her treatment of Arya was pretty horrendous, and her continual blaming of Arya for what happens to her (when it was obviously Joffrey and Cersei's fault entirely, with a little Robert thrown in) is simply inane. She's extremely superficial, fascinated by pretty things and relatively uninterested in substance -- in short, she is vapid. It doesn't help matters that she isn't particularly intelligent, especially early on, and is therefore easily manipulated by others. I think Sandor gets her right, and in his own way -- even though he mocks her -- I think he tries to get her to grow the hell up.

That all said, probably what makes Sansa more aggravating than other, far more evil characters like Cersei, Gregor, or Roose Bolton is that she IS basically a decent person and that the bad things that happen as a result of her behaviour are a result of her self-absorption and haplessness rather than malicious intent.

[McAndrus]

I think you may have something, there, and your insight has allowed me to draw some interesting parallels...

You don't see, for example, a lot of hate directed at Gregor Clegane. Because, I get this sense, that whatever sort of horror he may have been as a human being, at least he was a professional. He was good at what he did, and seemed to have a realistic grasp of his own strengths and weaknesses.

For some reason, a special level of internet hell is reserved for the criminally inept.

Witness Sansa, who wants nothing more than for everything to be sweet and nice, like in the songs. Not a very controversial sentiment, if you ask me. But look at the unrealistic way she approaches her goal, oblivious to her own weaknesses and obstacles. Basically, she is armed with good intentions but nothing else: no confidence in herself, awareness of politics, or even a clever application of her existing skill set. Of course, GRRM makes all of this painfully obvious to US, but never to the girl herself. Its funny, but people tend to hate the characters that play parts in some of GRRM's most brilliant, subversive, and genre-overturning writing.

Observe Cersei, another much hated person. Why? Because she's so bad, she's not even effectively evil. In trying to accumulate power, she's brought nothing but ruin to her house. She is, in her own way, just like Sansa! Neither of them have a clear idea of what they really want, or how to go about getting it. Both are blind to their own shortcomings, and seem dead set on refusing to wise up in any way.

Want a similar example of male characters? Ned and Theon. Ned wants Justice, Theon wants Winterfell. Both are so inept (blind?, naive?, idealistic?, overwhelmed?) that they turn their own dreams to dust.

These train wrecks are happening all over Westeros, and we can't look away.

In addition to the "morally gray" landscape that GRRM paints with tales of redemption and destiny, he has inserted the vital dichotomy of intention versus results. Upon which of these may we judge a person? Who is more contemptible? An ineffective villain or an ineffective hero?

[The_BlauerDragon]

I wouldn't go so far as top say that she is the worst person in Westeros, but she is the one that I think many fans (myself definitely included) would like to see... [i]Suffer[/i]...

[McAndrus]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1756206' date='Apr 15 2009, 14.51']I wouldn't go so far as top say that she is the worst person in Westeros, but she is the one that I think many fans (myself definitely included) would like to see... [i]Suffer[/i]...[/quote]
... because she's inept, right? Amiright?

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='McAndrus' post='1756233' date='Apr 15 2009, 13.03']... because she's inept, right? Amiright?[/quote]
I'm not so certain that it is because she is inept. For me, I think it has more to do with my own bitter pile of unresolved issues. For me, Sansa brings forth the image of every spoiled little "rich bitch" that I've ever known. She's the prom queen, the head of the cheerleading squad, the stuck up little snob girl that always got everything she wanted and never had to know anything about the real world. She's that naive little twit that got away with murder simply because she was good looking and her Daddy was rich. She's the popular chick that treated everyone like shit and was loved for it. Her ineptitude springs from her sheltered existence, and her never having to give any thought to anything real in her surroundings. In real life, the types of women that I'm describing either get to live out their days in that state of blissfully indulgent ignorance (a la Paris Hilton), or reality brings a hammer down squarely between their ears and they live out their days as emotionally voided, insecure, self-loathing, crushed shells of their former selves. I am hoping that no matter how the story progresses, that there will be no happy endings for Sansa (unless LF puts her to work in one of her establishments and [i]happy endings[/i] falls into her job description).

[wakiki]

[quote name='Calanctus' post='1474916' date='Aug 11 2008, 01.54']Yes, that's right. Sansa is the [i]worst person in Westeros[/i]. Perhaps in the entire world.

I know she's one of the more popular characters around here, but I have to ask: are you guys reading the same books I am?

I mean, Sansa:
*Threw her little brother out of a tower window
*Burned half of another brother's face off
*Poisoned her husband at the instigation of Littlefinger
*Killed and tortured numerous peasants in the Riverlands looking for gold
*Shot her own father in the bowels with a crossbow
*Beat a woman to death for sleeping with her brother

And there are so many other examples. It just boggles the mind, all this Sansa love. Surely I'm not alone?[/quote]

:lmao: This thread is [i]so[/i] worth the necromancy. A rare case.

And let's not forget how she personally lured her brother to the Twins to be killed. She was consoling her mother about the death of her children while plotting the death of her only remaining son!

And she ordered Arys to beat that poor Stark girl! (Who was she again? Arya?)

[Inglorious Pencil]

[quote name='wakiki' post='1756490' date='Apr 16 2009, 01.58']:lmao: This thread is [i]so[/i] worth the necromancy. A rare case.

And let's not forget how she personally lured her brother to the Twins to be killed. She was consoling her mother about the death of her children while plotting the death of her only remaining son!

And she ordered Arys to beat that poor Stark girl! (Who was she again? Arya?)[/quote]

Why, you guys forgot that she totally was the one to chew off Brienne's face! :leaving:

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon']I'm not so certain that it is because she is inept. For me, I think it has more to do with my own bitter pile of unresolved issues. For me, Sansa brings forth the image of every spoiled little "rich bitch" that I've ever known.[/quote]
So is your hate about Sansa or about you? :rolleyes:

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Glue Your Eyelids' post='1756534' date='Apr 15 2009, 17.49']So is your hate about Sansa or [b]about you[/b]?[/quote]
It's entirely about me.
I have a feeling I am not alone in that, either.
Can anyone say that they honestly hate a fictional character for any other reason?

[Zweihander]

[quote name='McAndrus' post='1756198' date='Apr 15 2009, 12.44']I think you may have something, there, and your insight has allowed me to draw some interesting parallels...

You don't see, for example, a lot of hate directed at Gregor Clegane. Because, I get this sense, that whatever sort of horror he may have been as a human being, at least he was a professional. He was good at what he did, and seemed to have a realistic grasp of his own strengths and weaknesses.

For some reason, a special level of internet hell is reserved for the criminally inept.

Witness Sansa, who wants nothing more than for everything to be sweet and nice, like in the songs. Not a very controversial sentiment, if you ask me. But look at the unrealistic way she approaches her goal, oblivious to her own weaknesses and obstacles. Basically, she is armed with good intentions but nothing else: no confidence in herself, awareness of politics, or even a clever application of her existing skill set. Of course, GRRM makes all of this painfully obvious to US, but never to the girl herself. Its funny, but people tend to hate the characters that play parts in some of GRRM's most brilliant, subversive, and genre-overturning writing.

Observe Cersei, another much hated person. Why? Because she's so bad, she's not even effectively evil. In trying to accumulate power, she's brought nothing but ruin to her house. She is, in her own way, just like Sansa! Neither of them have a clear idea of what they really want, or how to go about getting it. Both are blind to their own shortcomings, and seem dead set on refusing to wise up in any way.

Want a similar example of male characters? Ned and Theon. Ned wants Justice, Theon wants Winterfell. Both are so inept (blind?, naive?, idealistic?, overwhelmed?) that they turn their own dreams to dust.

These train wrecks are happening all over Westeros, and we can't look away.

In addition to the "morally gray" landscape that GRRM paints with tales of redemption and destiny, he has inserted the vital dichotomy of intention versus results. Upon which of these may we judge a person? Who is more contemptible? An ineffective villain or an ineffective hero?[/quote]I think you're making some really interesting points here -- one place where I will disagree with you is on the topic of Ned Stark.

I agree that he is a terrible politician and just wasn't cut out for court intrigues. He's too honest and naively assumes that others will deal honestly with him as well. However, I DON'T think he is blind to the consequences of his actions. He knew, even before leaving Winterfell, that going to King's Landing would not go well for him. He felt very strongly that it was not his place and feared he would end just as his brother and father did. Further, he had numerous opportunities to "save himself" by capitulating to Cersei, Renly, or Littlefinger and refused to do so every time. When he is finally thrown in jail, he even admits to Varys that he is willing to die if it means living by the principles he holds dear.

So yes, while Ned Stark's brief foray into Southron politics ended very badly for his family and himself, his failures were due to weaknesses he recognized, and the outcomes were ones he foresaw even before taking his post. He failed because he was not sufficiently duplicitous for the task before him, and he recognized and acknowledged his own unwillingness to *ever* be so. Catelyn should never have made him go south.