Valonqar; A double bluff?

[starki]

It also says "hands". Jamie only has one.

And the gold one...

I don't think it's Tyrion because he's getting as far away as possible from Cersei. And we have seen increasing tension between Jamie and Cersei in AFFC. My bet is on Jamie, strangling Cersei to protect Tommen.

[dragginstoned]

Unbeknownst to all but the now rare Valyrian philologist/cultural anthropologist Valonqar refers to any younger male relative on the male side. Thus we have proof that as Tommen is not only Cersei's son, but also her nephew, he must be the one fated to kill his mother/aunt. I think the method of Cersei's death is still in question with my favorites currently running between Tommen doing the deed with his own pudgy prepubescent hands choking the living snot out of his drunken sot of a mother, or he gets lots of help from a pack of well-trained, and angry, kittens. My apologies to Orestes.

No. he wargs into the kittens.

it is known

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well, I've just been reading the wiki article for Cersei, and at one point it talks about hew she has been haunted by threats of a valonqar who will strangle her.

Now most of us, take this to mean Jaime and events seem to be heading that way. However, I got to wondering if valonqar could have a duel meaning and there it was in the article;

What if in this phrase Valonqar means literally 'Little Brother' as in 'Small Brother'? This would certainly point to Tyrion being the Volonqar after all.

Any ideas, or do you guys think this is just another cracked pot?

Actually the vast majority of people, including Cersei herself, seem to think it refers to Tyrion. I thought predicting that it'd be Jaime was considered a "departure" from widespread thinking. Maybe I'm misreading opinion.

EDIT: I'll also note that, unlike a lot of the more abstract prophecies, Maggy's seems to be occurring pretty literally. "You won't marry a prince, you'll marry a king. He'll have 16 kids, you'll have three. They'll wear golden crowns (note: could refer to their monarchal crowns or their HAIR) and golden (funeral) shrouds." Maggy's prophecy to Melara was also pretty literal: "Your death is here in this tent," and we can surmise that Cersei herself pushed Melara into the well. Given all of this, I expected valonquar to have an equally straightforward, unfussy solution, gender-neutral Valyrian aside.

[Horza]

Valyrian is not gender-neutral, just the word for prince.

And I genuinely think its Tommen.

[Winterfelon]

Valyrian is not gender-neutral, just the word for prince.

And I genuinely think its Tommen.

Can't be though - (if the prophecy is true) as C's kids die before her...

[Horza]

Can't be though - (if the prophecy is true) as C's kids die before her...

Lately people in Westeros seem to have difficulty staying dead...

[Winterfelon]

Lately people in Westeros seem to have difficulty staying dead...

Hmmm...

Fair point, but he's still too young.

Guess that could come about if

a) He gets 'Otherised'/'Wighted'

or

B) Qyburned

But in both of those he's still very small and possibly not strong enough

c) It's not literal and un-Tommen has to have her hanged...

I don't know - I think the most likely at this point is Jaime (and pretty sure I remember some setup for this in aDwD)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Valyrian is not gender-neutral, just the word for prince.

And I genuinely think its Tommen.

I stand corrected. I still think though that the solution will be as straightforward as the prophecy has been so far. There's absolutely no abstraction or mind-play at work there. It's pretty much boom, boom, boom.

[Horza]

Hmmm...

Fair point, but he's still too young.

Guess that could come about if

a) He gets 'Otherised'/'Wighted'

or

B) Qyburned

But in both of those he's still very small and possibly not strong enough

c) It's not literal and un-Tommen has to have her hanged...

I don't know - I think the most likely at this point is Jaime (and pretty sure I remember some setup for this in aDwD)

Well, in this case Cersei's too traumatized to react and wights are supernaturally strong and seem to be quite keen on strangling...

It popped into my head a year ago here.

Basically, the passage with the valonqar comes as part of the answer to Cersei's question about her children.

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Note: not 'a valonqar' (so there go all the 'X is Y's younger brother' hypotheses) or 'your valonqar' but 'the valonqar', and the question is about her children. Hence, Tommen.

It's left-field but I think it has to be someone in her family. We know it won't be Kevan, Jaime is out as he can't strangle unless someone rigs him a special clamp hand and I don't see him going to the trouble, AFfC Cersei is wrong about everything so she can't be right about it being Tyrion and this is Martin's kind of plausible crazy.

The only real problem is how the Others get so far down when they're still on the wrong side of the Wall. But hey, plenty of room for hell to break loose in TWoW.

[gonzoaster11]

I don't want to rule out Arya. I'm not so sure valonqar isn't also gender neutral. Besides, she has been called a boy so often in this series, perhaps Mother Maggy was being coy. Not to mention, I believe the character most often (only?) referred to as the "little sibling" is Arya, with Jon calling her 'little sister' after mussing her hair.

[seanbean4lyfe]

I don't want to rule out Arya. I'm not so sure valonqar isn't also gender neutral. Besides, she has been called a boy so often in this series, perhaps Mother Maggy was being coy. Not to mention, I believe the character most often (only?) referred to as the "little sibling" is Arya, with Jon calling her 'little sister' after mussing her hair.

interesting. I never thought of that before.

i like it! :thumbsup:

[Azerate]

After reading affc I thought it was pretty obvious that events foreseen in prophecy have happened and that jaime basically sentenced her to death by burning that letter and ignoring it

[Wildroses]

The exact quote says the valonqar is going to wrap his hands about Cersei's pale white throat. That's why I don't think it is Jaime, even though I'd like it to be for the sake of poetic justice. I think it would be hard to wrap a gold hand around a throat. Jaime doesn't seem to like his gold hand much anyway, he's always taking it off and refusing to put it on for the sake of appearance.

[Negator]

I am now convinced that is is Sandor Clegane. I have come to the realization that in a work of this magnitude, GRRM does not waste words. He has set up Sandor's return not only though the gravedigger, but by having Jaime think to himself of how this or that person would stand no change against the Hound if it truly was Sandor.

The Sandor v. Gregor plot is too strong in flavor and scope to have been wasted on the "leave him be" incident in GOT. GRRM, like the writers of Seinfeld, likes to tie things together.

Sandor is the younger brother who will slay

Ser Robert Strong

, and those, with his iron hands, choke the life from Cersei.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I am still rooting for Arya, as a faceless man sent by the Iron Bank of Bravos since Cersei won't pay the Iron Throne's debt.

I just don't see Sandor being the Valonqhar, his hate is reserved for himself and his brother.

[Weirwood hugger]

Crackpot theory alert...It's gonna be Tommen. He hates his mother for preferring the stupid crazy Joffrey.

[Hear Me Roar!]

The Tommen theories are pretty far out there, guys. How old is he? 10? And he seems like the most gentle child in Westeros.

[Call me Odie]

It’s "little brother" right? Like anylittle brother and not necessarily her little brother? Sandor is a little brother. If the beats the crap out of Un-Gregor he can then wrap his ohh so manly hands round her throat.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The word "valonqar" may be gender neutral, but the prophecy specifically says the valonqar will put "his" hands around her throat.

That doesn't mean anything. It's just normal agreement in English. You can't use "its" for human agent, and although we customarily use "their" for a gender-neutral, especially informally, you can't say that "his" doesn't agree with an uncertain antecedent.

[Negator]

I think that if Sandor is, for all intents and purposes, the "prosecutor" who kills UnGregor, he would be the hand that chokes Cersei, as she will be executed.