Larry. Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I don't know if I'd say the d fference between the two for me has anything to do with 'workable',. I think the second book in a series is given some measure of slack regarding what the reader wants and can expect to either find out or use to draw their own conclusions. I went into The Thousandfold Thought with more expectations that either of the first two installments, and although I think it's outstanding (as noted the best completed epic sequence I have read), I just think the most alluring element in the series for me was the Kellhuss/Cnaiur angle and this was played out the most in the second installment. You said exactly what I found to be the hardest part of reading TTT at first, when I realized there wasn't going to be as much of that dynamic present as were the previous two volumes. That, and some readers are going to either be enthralled by the glossary and the references in the body of the text to what is found there, or they are going to resent it, I think. As you say, no middle ground. Essentially what I'm saying is that i think it was awesome, but I'm not sure if that's how it's going to be perceived by many people, and it may be just because of the the lack of marketing of the future work (The Aspect Emperor). On hindsight, I think it ended the only way it really could have ended, I'm just not sure my thinking is going to be shared by the majority - and unfortunately I think its caused by what I think is not a universal understanding/knowledge of the forthcoming work. I just think a lot of people are not going to find out what they want until the Aspect Emperor, and I'm not sure if that's what people are expecting going into The Thousandfold Thought. People are going to either love it or hate it. There will be no middle-ground after 'TTT'. Indeed. This is not a book for those who want certain types of endings, but I think that's the way Bakker wants it. More questions, more questionings, more doubt...and less certainty about moral issues. Definitely not the typical epic fantasy book, which I think is part of its appeal to me. And I think some are going to react strongly to that one issue of Cnaiür and Moénghus, based on what I've seen over at the Three-Seas Forum lately. But it'll be interesting to see where TAE picks up - I do know from having talked with Scott recently that he's completed the prologue and a few other scenes and has a Summer 2007 release date in mind for the first book of that planned duology. I guess we can endure 18-24 months of people being pissed/curious about the book's conclusion. Yeah I know, I'm hoping for luck, but if not I have plenty of stuff I need to review anyway. I really want to contact him about some last mintue revisions I heard he had made some months ago and what they entailed My questions have more to do with the editorial/marketing decisions than the writing itself, which is absolutely -- and as expected -- powerful. The conclusion is a bit of surprise, and surprises tend to be taken to reacted to in the extreme. I fear some wil think it anti-climatic, butthe more I think of it (as mentioned) it was perfect. I'm kinda curious about the publishing stuff as well, but I'll wait to hear what you report on it. And that conclusion...it certainly is a memorable one in my opinion and I agree that it is fitting for what transpired throughout the trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 The thing with Cnauir/Conphas made it my favorite of the three. Just so fucking shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 Yes, that was quite well-done and I think a few might find that to be their favorite part, along with that one visual toward the end during the Shimeh scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Tigernuts Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Relatively new to this board. Relatively new to fantasy. But otherwise not relatively new. A bit creaky at times. Worrying. Aaaaaaaanyway, just started reading the first book of this series precisely because of the comments on this board. A very interesting and engrossing start. A lot to take on, but he writes so well that you can understand *looks sideways through half closed eyes at Mr Erikson* and have a sense of the world and characters and motivations and desires and emotions and, well, you know what I mean. I look forward to reading more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Just have to say that the comments made by Jay and Dylan, and knowing a good bit about their tastes and preferences by now, are making me suddenly quite wary about a book that I have been tremendously looking forward to for quite a time. It seems like you guys are already "covering" for lack of a better word, for what you expect to be a negative response to what seems to be a possibly very unsatisfying finale. I'm not criticizing you guys personally btw, but the comments made by Jay about the ending, and the explicit ones by Dylan about the first half of the book and it's very reflective, slow nature just ring my alarm bells. Still, I should really love the vast appendices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 I was planning to read PoN once TTT was out in paperback (or if I won the hardbacks in Pat's competition posted a few weeks ago on Wotmania: I didn't ) as I'm not going into another series and then spending years gnashing my teeth for the next installment. The apparent 'problematic' ending to the trilogy doesn't sound too hopeful. I'll still read it, but I'm having uncomfortable flashbacks to 1999 and the criticisms over the conclusion to The Night's Dawn Trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Don't read too much into what we've said. I'm just thinking about a certain few types that want just only the battles (those who hated TDTCB but loved the ending to TWP) and not the motivations or deep character developments. Anyways, there are plenty of those moments as well as the book progresses, but some just won't have the patience to wait 100-150 pages or so. As for the ending, some people are just going to be pissed that they didn't guess correctly or even close to it. It's surprising, shocking in some ways, but ultimately, it made sense to me, reflecting upon it. It's not 'covering' at all - more of a realization that there are going to be others that disagree with my honest assessment of the work. I think the volume works on multiple levels...but it's a story that Scott chose to tell, not the story that many readers would want to read. But just wait and see...you'll understand more of what I'm trying to say here once you've read the book. Like TDTCB and TWP, TTT is not for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minaku Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I started reading The Darkness That Comes Before today. I'm at the end of the first part, and I have to say, very truthfully, this: what the HELL is going on? I am really, seriously confused. I know my brain's been turned off ever since I graduated, but reading this book is fucking agony because it makes me feel like an idiot. At least I can freakin' pronounce the names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 What's going on is you're seeing a character, Kellhus, that will reappear a little over halfway through the novel. It was important to show the beginning of his journey so you can understand what he will do next is influenced by what has happened before. There is much that had to be left unsaid in those scenes of his, however, as they play a direct role in the final scenes of the third book. Just read on and it'll start to make sense very shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Hang in there, Minaku. I didn't "connect" with the book before we meet Cnaiür, which you should do real soon now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaldBull Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Well, I just finished the first book last night and I don't think I'm going to read any further. I don't feel any sympathy/identification with any of the characters here. I like 'gray' characters, but these characters are so gray they're charcoal. God, reading Kelhus POVs was like reading Ted Bundy's autobiography. Ick. Some good stuff here though, once I figured out that this was fictionalized retelling of the first Crusade I was able to wrap my head around the plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minaku Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Yeah, I realized after I spoiled myself by reading the last few chapters that Kellhus is Jesus. OMFG! Everything else makes more sense. Once, just once though, Kellhus needs to make a mistake. And quit talking about that Dunyain crap, we know that you're superior to everyone. See now, but here's the question: there is more than one Dunyain. Does that mean that if other Dunyain come out of hiding, that people would think they are gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolfv2 Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I loved it. could have used a bit more action and magic but overall it was really good. I think it bumps Martin from my top 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needle Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Yeah, I realized after I spoiled myself by reading the last few chapters that Kellhus is Jesus. OMFG! Everything else makes more sense. Hmm..you may change that opinion, Mina. Either that or you have a radically different take on christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaco Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 What's the word on TTT's release date? Amazon.ca lists it as Jan 1, but then the confirmation email I received from them says the ship date isn't until Jan 19. Penguin Canada just says January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbie of High Heart Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Based on the glowing recommendations, I bought the first book today. I'm only in the second chapter and I'm hooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 I'll just give you guys who are curious just a tiny snippet of a spoiler regarding TTT: SPOILER: TTTThe Battle of Shimeh takes place over the final 50-60 pages and is described in much the detail that the battle scenes were described in TWP. There is this one cool cinematic scene in which the Cishaurim rise up into the air and the visualization is just superb. And that's enough for now. Nothing substantial should be told, I believe. It'll be fun reading how people react to the ending sequences of TTT, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobodymN Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 'll be fun reading how people react to the ending sequences of TTT, though! Total anarchy - should be amusing. I both cannot wait, and then again, I almost don't want to hear some of the opinions. TTT is astounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Rhaco: Amazon.ca lists it as Jan 1, but then the confirmation email I received from them says the ship date isn't until Jan 19. Yes I got that disturbing little message as well. I can only hope that it ships when they say it will, on January 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minaku Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Hmm..you may change that opinion, Mina. Either that or you have a radically different take on christianity I sometimes feel as if I'm some sort of weird heathen because I didn't grow up with Christianity. I've never read the Bible, didn't go to church, can't quote scripture, or even remember the hymns. I even forget parts of the Hail Mary. But the similarities were there for me. Either he's a Jesus-like figure or he's an asshole. Sometimes, I really lean towards the asshole side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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