Am I the only one who thinks that the First Law Trilogy is overrated?

[needle]

[quote]Abercrombie came out in the top 10 F/SF books in this board's rating competition.[/quote]

I ws always quite surprised by this, that a fairly mediocre - in the truest sense, Ok, but not great - series was voted so highly.

In part I wondered whether that was [i]because[/i] Joe A posts here - if he and Paeder perhaps get a little more indulgence from everyone because we feel that we 'know' them. I know I'd feel guilty slamming on 'The Inferior', for example, because of having met Paedar a few times, and crosstalking with him on Lj, etc.

As Isis says, these guys probably wouldn't thank their readers for that, but it's a natural instinct not to be nasty about the works of those you've 'met'; whether in a cyber sense or a real sense.

[Analu]

[quote name='Isis' post='1507641' date='Sep 5 2008, 23.15']And those of you who didn't want to speak your mind about The First Law: you're not helping anybody here, least of all the author, if you don't air your criticisms on the board [i]just because[/i] the author posts here. I'm sure he'll tell you that constructive critiism is a good thing. Probably.[/quote]
I posted a semi-critical post in one of his threads and think I left it fairly open-ended. Meaning, if he or anyone else had inquired further as to what my criticisms entailed, then I would've proceeded to describe them. IIRC, no one inquired about it, and so I left it at that. And though I haven't kept a close eye on his threads, I don't think I've seen him respond to many criticisms about it, so wouldn't be too sure that he's all that eager to hear them. Obviously, I'm not trying to put words into his mouth, but that was just my impression.


But to dig into some criticism, this post perfectly describes one of my problems with the series:

[quote name='needle' post='1506882' date='Sep 5 2008, 05.51']I got sick fed up of Glokta feeling his empty gums every second bloody line. Every character was so repetitive. It's like Joe had a list - x character does a,b&c, it's a chapter about them, lets just cut and paste fromt he last chapter.
Knee's creaking - check
stump aching- check
tooth loose -check.

Apart from that, it was ok. But that made it pretty much unreadable for me.[/quote]

I also had some problems with what I considered unrealistic dialogue/actions, and my memory's a little hazy, but I think I also had issues with well-fleshed out character arcs, or lack thereof. In any case, I don't think they're bad books. I was just baffled at the level of praise that they received. YMMV

[Maia]

I have grown quite cautious about the board's enthusiasms, since so many failed to bowl me over. Latest case in point - "Name of the Wind". I also failed to get into Erickson or Abraham, although I did like the respective first volumes, have big reservations against "Prince of Nothing" series, although I do appreciate it's originality and writing style, and while I did really like Lynch, I wasn't quite as carried away as many other admirers.

Having said that, I really enjoyed "The First Law" trilogy, in fact I enjoyed it more than most new fantasy series in the last several years. I loved the bleakness of the ending and IMHO it wasn't "gritty" (yes, I know!) enough. I'd have preferred to see a few more deaths. But then, I actually read fantasy for the same sort of escapism that historical fiction also provides - i.e. exotic locales and cultures, genuinely terrible dangers, bigger than life characters, etc. and what always bugged me was that fantasy seems to be even _more_ predictable than that, although it should actually be the opposite.
Anyway, I didn't go into it with expectation to find another ASOIAF, but just of a diverting adventure tale subverting the usual clichés. Oh, and a really effective Evil Overlord with a truly clever plan was a huge bonus. I have to admit that I have a big weakness for competent villains, which are much rarer in speculative fiction than one would imagine.

[TakLoufer]

[quote name='Isis' post='1507641' date='Sep 6 2008, 04.15']Completely disagree about Parker. I was more excited about The Engineer Trilogy than I was about The First Law. I think. Well, it was a close thing. ;) I like realism and non-happy endings.[/quote]

Yeah, but the problem with Parker is that her characters are nihilistic in a sense that's not realistic. Virtually [i]all[/i] of her characters have this attitude of "life's meaningless and nothing matters, so there's no point in getting worked up over anything." I can imagine [i]some[/i] characters being like this, but [i]all of them?[/i] It robs the story of much needed [i]pathos[/i] because none of the characters seem to give a shit.

"Oh, I'm about to die. Oh well, that's that . . . "

"Genocide is being committed upon my country . . . on balence, I'd rather this wasn't the case, but I suppose it doesn't matter."

It's not really the nihilism of the story that turns me off, it's the nihilism [i]of the characters.[/i] I like reading Parker, but her characters seem to be nothing more than reflections of herself.

I like realism and non-happy ending too, but I also like realistic and diverse characters, which is why I like Bakker and Abercrombie over Parker.

[Ran]

It was a really refreshing read for me, and I hadn't really read any of the hype on the board -- I knew people liked the series, and that Joe was around and an amusing fellow, but I didn't know the reasons for why people liked it. I think the pacing, the more character-driven story, and so on just worked quite well. Is it GRRM? No. It's Abercrombie. It's its own thing.

I did note, as I recall, that I did think Glotka's many sarcastic mental asides were rather annoying, in a way which I'm not sure the author intended. The character himself made sense, though, with his ruthless cynicism.. But what's stayed with me most is Logen Ninefingers and, to a lesser extent, his former comrades-in-arms like Dogman.

[Peadar]

[quote name='needle' post='1507654' date='Sep 6 2008, 11.35']In part I wondered whether that was [i]because[/i] Joe A posts here - if he and Paeder perhaps get a little more indulgence from everyone because we feel that we 'know' them.[/quote]

Well, I can't speak for Joe, whose book is wildly popular even on boards where he doesn't post. But as for me, yes, I know I've had an easy ride here. It's hard to tell your best friend he's looking fat.

But leaving my weight problems out of this for now, let me say that the hype for a book, any book, is fully merited when a large number of people have loved it, even if those people aren't us. Every book will have those who love and hate it and the whole point of a board like this, is to get the right book into the hands of the right reader. So, to reiterate what Isis said, we have to train ourselves to find those readers with similar tastes to our own. It's not that hard in most cases. Although somebody giving an author such as myself a free pass might render the exercise a little more difficult.

But even so, there are plenty of avenues to match yourself up with the perfect reading experience. If you think a forthcoming book seems to be over-hyped, try downloading a few sample chapters. Or next time you're in your local bookshop, take a look at the first few pages. You know you want to.

And above all, don't let the hype blind you to the negative comments that do exist. Even Joe got quite a few from a minority of boarders, even GRRM gets the odd one from time to time.

The right book for the right reader, with a tasty pizza cooling slowly at your side. We CAN all be happy.

[salinea]

[quote name='Peadar' post='1507750' date='Sep 6 2008, 17.58']So, to reiterate what Isis said, we have to train ourselves to find those readers with similar tastes to our own. It's not that hard in most cases.[/quote]

Yeah but even if people have the same taste as you for one book, doesn't meant they share all of your tastes. Like they like chocolate, strawberry and vanilla, and you like chocolate, melon and coco. Based on the fact you both like chocolate you tell them to read coco and bam they hate it. Happens all the time :)

Anyway, while I did love The First Law, I remember being very disappointed by Lies Of Locke Lamora when I got around to reading it because of how highly praised it was on this board. Neither of those two series could be called bad, IMHO, they both have flaws and qualities, a certain measure of freshness and some roughness around the edge. The rest is taste, between enthusiasm and "meh" is indeed taste. Good reviews are the kinds that know how to differentiate between overall objective qualities and things that appeal because of tastes, and can identify which specific tastes so that the reader who share them can pick them up.

[gyrehead]

[quote name='Sophelia' post='1507644' date='Sep 6 2008, 05.44']ETA: Unlike Isis I did/do get the impression that a vast majority of people in this forum rate the books extremely highly: I have seen a lot of people raving about loving the books, more so than nearly any series. I did get the impression when I posted my relatively lukewarm response in the spoiler threads, that I was in a small majority. Abercrombie came out in the top 10 F/SF books in this board's rating competition. So I can understand the OP's bewilderment, if not swept away by the books.[/quote]

Definitely agree. Maybe my perception is just flawed but other than Erikson and Lynch, I think Abercrombie is the one who gets touted the most as if he invented the ice cream cone. I initially put it down to finding Lynch in the same mediocre category and that on a Martin board where I don't consider ASOIAF to be the best of the genre by far, to be a matter of very unique and odd taste on my part. This is th efirs time that I have noticed any real group of people expressing less than slackjawed awe at the work.

Obviously though, despite this thread I think the majority who have read his work seem to like it, he is doing something right and for a large group of people somethign well. Just not quite for me.

[needle]

[quote]Well, I can't speak for Joe, whose book is wildly popular even on boards where he doesn't post. But as for me, yes, I know I've had an easy ride here. It's hard to tell your best friend he's looking fat.[/quote]

*grins* ok, fatty.

Just to clarify - I doubt very much people would rave about a book they didn't enjoy, just beacuse the author is likely to read it, so the praise is obviously merited. What may be downplayed is the degree of criticism, leaving an unbalanced view; and that's maybe where the 'this board is Joe Abercrombie's personal fanboy' thing comes over.

Oh - and just to demonstrate how tastes differ - why would [i]anyone[/i] let pizza cool? :P

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='Ran' post='1507740' date='Sep 6 2008, 11.16'][b][i]Is it GRRM? No. It's Abercrombie. It's its own thing.
[/i][/b]
I did note, as I recall, that I did think [b]Glotka's many sarcastic mental asides were rather annoying, [/b]in a way which I'm not sure the author intended. The character himself made sense, though, with his ruthless cynicism.. But what's stayed with me most is[b] Logen Ninefingers and, to a lesser extent, his former comrades-in-arms like Dogman.
[/b][/quote]


I began to tire of Glotka too. I haven't read LAoK yet, though, so I'll look forward to seeing what's going to happen to his story. At this point he feels like an old relative who can't stop whining about their aches and pains every time you see them. Logen Ninefingers and that arrogant POS Jezal (who obviously is going to be a hero) are more interesting characters to me.

I enjoyed what I've read so far of the series and will read the last one as soon as it's available here. I liked Bakker more, probably because of my perverse attraction to obscurity - I had to read most of it at least twice to figure out what was going on, which puts it in aSoIaF territory IMHO. Strange criteria, I know. :P

While I found Lies of Locke Lamora a pleasant enough read, I wasn't in love with it and didn't go on to buy Red Seas under Red Skies; however, I didn't feel it necessary to go on these boards and trumpet it.

In short, you're just more likely to hear more praise than bad reviews, simply because I think many of us feel if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I don't know any of the authors, so I'm not afraid of pissing anyone off. :)

[Balefont]

[quote name='Peadar' post='1507750' date='Sep 6 2008, 11.58']But leaving my weight problems out of this for now, let me say that the hype for a book, any book, is fully merited when a large number of people have loved it, even if those people aren't us. Every book will have those who love and hate it and the whole point of a board like this, is to get the right book into the hands of the right reader. So, to reiterate what Isis said, we have to train ourselves to find those readers with similar tastes to our own. It's not that hard in most cases. Although somebody giving an author such as myself a free pass might render the exercise a little more difficult.[/quote]

Exactly. Which is why I mourn Stego no longer blogging. He is truly the only book reviewer I have found who matches my tastes and I'd be utterly lost without him.

I'm only one book into the First Law Trilogy so I'm going to reserve my overall opinion until I finish the series. One thing I will say: I seem to get more hung up on poorly worded sentences and flat characters. I measure an author's true talent to be how well he/she can say something that will strike me. So, so far, I have felt the actual writing in this trilogy to be "up there". The first book for me is a solid 8/10.

[Vethnar]

[quote name='Ran' post='1507740' date='Sep 6 2008, 17.16']I did note, as I recall, that I did think Glotka's many sarcastic mental asides were rather annoying, in a way which I'm not sure the author intended.[/quote]

I don't recall feeling particularly annoyed about Glokta or his sarcastic mental asides, but I do begin to feel mildly annoyed that the majority of readers seem unable to spell his name correctly. It's not a very long or complicated name. Why is it so difficult to put the "k" and "t" in the right order?

To me, [i]The First Law[/i] was more or less like I expected after reading the comments and discussions on this board: Not sensationally deep or original, but a light and very entertaining read. I'll certainly buy [i]Best Served Cold[/i] in hardback when it arrives.

[Peadar]

[quote name='needle' post='1507797' date='Sep 6 2008, 18.10']Oh - and just to demonstrate how tastes differ - why would [i]anyone[/i] let pizza cool? :P[/quote]

Because it is [b]Best Served Cold[/b]?

[quote name='needle' post='1507797' date='Sep 6 2008, 18.10']*grins* ok, fatty.[/quote]

And that's your problem right there. A more constructive, tactful way of giving that criticism, might have been to say: "I was in town the other day and saw they had just got in some steel-reinforced chairs. You know, the type that don't suddenly collapse under you?"

[Ran]

Vethnar,

It would almost certainly be because the 'kt' combination is rather unusual in English, whereas 'tk' isn't so odd. You'll have to live with your annoyance on that score. :)

[sckma]

erm to add my two cents.

I got his books based on board recommendations and then reading his (very funny/entertaining) blog. I thought his chracterisations were really good, (although having the bad guys all have muslim names annoyed me... well not really :P)

Bu the thing is, I don't read that much fantasy, and i do think his books relied on people knowing the fantasy genre well-enough to think they know where the story is going, so it would seem predictable, only to turn on its head. but for me, these notions weren't really set in stone, so the whole flip didnt rock my world.
maybe for most of you, you have read through a few fantasy series, enough to know make the story initially derivative, and then the books rocked your world because it wasnt the case. but not for me.

but i love his blog! his and grrms blog i frequent regularly. seriously, its lolarious.

[Werthead]

I've noticed a lot more negative opinion on [b]The First Law[/b] from the late-comers. I think that those of us who have praised the series the most got into it not long after the first book came out when the 'hype' was at a minimum, and then followed it along. I've definitely noticed people who've read the book more recently, after hearing from the rest of us how awesome it is for three years straight, seem to be more prone to saying, "S'okay, but not awesome."

Obviously that's not the only reason, but it could be a factor. I'd heard about how amazing the [b]Coldfire[/b] trilogy is for a good seven or eight years before I finally picked up the first book last year when it got its first UK publication, and I was reasonably "Meh," about it.

[quote name='Vethnar' post='1507847' date='Sep 6 2008, 19.45']I don't recall feeling particularly annoyed about Glokta or his sarcastic mental asides, but I do begin to feel mildly annoyed that the majority of readers seem unable to spell his name correctly. It's not a very long or complicated name. Why is it so difficult to put the "k" and "t" in the right order?[/quote]

This is irritating, but not as irritating as the Erickson/Erikson thing. Seriously, there is already a fantasy writer called Steve Erickson, he is not the same person as Steven Erikson. Fair enough, on about 85% of occasions it's Erikson who is being referred to, but it's still mildly irritating. Especially as when Erickson has been discussed, some people then go on to misspell his name as Erikson. Extremely confusing. It's Erikson's own fault for picking a pen-name belonging to another author, and I'm surprised neither he nor his editor or publisher didn't realise that at the time.

[needle]

[quote]I've definitely noticed people who've read the book more recently, after hearing from the rest of us how awesome it is for three years straight, seem to be more prone to saying, "S'okay, but not awesome."[/quote]

Hmm. you threw me with that, because I definitely remembered being given it when it was 'new', two years back. It's not been out for three years, Wert :P

For me, I actually liked the first half of the first book a lot, but it just went steadily downhill and the next two - despite hype- did NOT get better and better.. I guess I probably couldn't be bothered to post just to say it wasn't great, though :P

[TakLoufer]

I only read the series a couple months ago and my attitude was "Meh" for the first book, "It's getting better for the second," And "Hey, this is pretty good." for the third.

I've been hearing about the series for some time, but to be honest I really wasn't expecting to like ti too much. From what I heard it just sounded to formulaic (i.e. Barbarian Warrior, Torturer with a heart of gold, etc.). The fact that I liked it so much surprised me.

Perhaps my low expectations helped my judgement?

[williamjm]

[quote name='needle' post='1507654' date='Sep 6 2008, 11.35']I ws always quite surprised by this, that a fairly mediocre - in the truest sense, Ok, but not great - series was voted so highly.

In part I wondered whether that was [i]because[/i] Joe A posts here[/quote]

I think his high position in the rankings was probably due to him posting here, although perhaps only because a higher proportion of people on here will have read him because they've seen him around. He didn't do nearly as well in the other polls on Malazan and the other boards that copied the poll format.

[delete this account pls]

Anything that becomes hugely popular has a similar phenomenon. Some people want to jump on the bandwagon. others want to display their independent thinking and cool edginess by distancing themselves from the 'herd'. And some people just honestly like/love or dislike/hate it.