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Jon is the child of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne


Artanaro

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Here's the anti R+L=J theory as I propose.

N+A=J

Facts that support this arguement over R+L=J:

First arguement.

Arthur Dayne wasn't her only brother from what we learn from Edric Dayne. She may have been close to him, but her brother is a member of the Kingsguard nevertheless. Varys says a kingsguard should die, "with sword in hand, defending one of the king's own blood." This belief is shared by about everyone in Westeros. I'm not saying Ashara should be happy her brother died, but I have no doubt she knew what that cloak meant, like every other person on the continent. Members of the Kingsguard do not run. And she would understand what Ned would be forced to do under the circumstances. Even Edric Dayne doesn't use him as an excuse why Ashara died. But if part of the supposed story is wrong, that casts doubts on the rest as well. So carrying on.

Second arguement.

Also, here's another fact that supports this theory. Throughout ASOIAF, there are many examples of bastards. Ramsey Snow and the Glover bastard were each raised by their mother. Jon is a remarkable break with tradition, because his "father" chose to raise him at Winterfell. However, if Ashara was Jon's mother and alive, it seems by all standards she should have raised Jon in accord with Westeros custom. So this far better explains her suicide or possible fake death then that she was grief stricken by the death of her brother and suffering a broken heart from Ned marrying Catelyn.

Third arguement.

It's the timing of her suicide, which throws off many warning signals. For the stated account to be true, Ashara Dayne should not find out about Ned and Catelyn's marriage until Ned comes to her. But it seems awfully hard to believe she got no word by raven. We know for sure Ned married Catelyn before the Trident. This leaves months for Ashara to receive the news. Every person (Sandor Clegane as one example) in Westeros knows about Edmure's upcoming marriage to a Frey, as well as Robb's marriage to a Westerling. So I find it hard to believe she waited until Ned arrived in order to off herself, if a broken heart is all it took. And why choose a manner of death that leaves no trace of her demise or any possibility for a funeral. This makes the entire incident very suspicious. Yes it's possible she died of a broken heart, but very unlikely.

Fourth arguement.

Edric Dayne acknowledges his relationship with Jon Snow as being that of milk brothers. Their shared wetnurse was named Wylla. Edric believes Wylla was Jon's mother, but if Wylla is truly Jon's mother it fails to explain why Ned took Jon back to Winterfell. But there's something more important to be considered here. If Jon is truly the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, why would Ned bring the child to the company of the Daynes. Wylla would know for sure she wasn't the mother, so Eddard runs a grave risk by taking on people to conceal Rhaegar and Lyanna's story. Any number could reveal that this child wasn't Wylla's and that his origins are a mystery. So what reason could he have with making Wylla assume to be the mother of the child. The obvious answer is to conceal the mother's identity. But how do you reconcile such a plot without revealing such a grave secret to Wylla. Perhaps R+L=J is not the intended secret, but something else is. Wylla could be used to divert attention away from Ashara Dayne as the mother. Being a wetnurse of Edric implies she has some loyalty to the house of Dayne. Therefore, she's the perfect person to hide a noble woman's bastard child. But why would someone want the world not to know they had a baby. If Ashara had a child, I can't even possibly fathom her committing suicide. And I doubt many other people in Westeros would either.

What I believed happen:

Eddard Stark found Lyanna with a child at the Tower of Joy. Unfortunately, he had only one person in all the world he could trust with such a grave secret. That being Ashara Dayne. But she already had a child. Lyanna and Rhaegar's son would need to go into perpetual hiding in order to escape Robert's wrath. Eddard new he couldn't bring the child back to Winterfell, but he needed someone he could trust with raising him (or her). Ashara Dayne was that person. But if a person disappears, that will raise grave suspicion. So she needed to fake her death. But sadly, if you disappear, your child can't disappear with you. That's why Eddard had to raise his son.

The things people do for love. Eddard probably regretted everyday of his life that he could not bring Jon to meet his mother. Who I believe is still alive. May Jon get his reunion some day.

Artanaro

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Here's the anti R+L=J theory as I propose.

N+A=J

What I believed happen:

Eddard Stark found Lyanna with a child at the Tower of Joy. Unfortunately, he had only one person in all the world he could trust with such a grave secret. That being Ashara Dayne. But she already had a child. Lyanna and Rhaegar's son would need to go into perpetual hiding in order to escape Robert's wrath. Eddard new he couldn't bring the child back to Winterfell, but he needed someone he could trust with raising him (or her). Ashara Dayne was that person. But if a person disappears, that will raise grave suspicion. So she needed to fake her death. But sadly, if you disappear, your child can't disappear with you. That's why Eddard had to raise his son.

The things people do for love. Eddard probably regretted everyday of his life that he could not bring Jon to meet his mother. Who I believe is still alive. May Jon get his reunion some day.

Artanaro

So Ashara Dayne is alive posing as Wylla and hiding R+L's kid?

I don't know, maybe.

Does anyone know the timeline of Ned going to war, concieving Jon, Ashara having Jon and her "death"? Does it work?

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blackbull,

I'm not saying Ashara is Wylla. I'm saying Wylla claimed Jon as her child to cover for Ashara. I believe Ashara was alive at the end of Robert's rebellion. She could have died since. But for Ashara to protect a child such as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she would need to flee beyond Westeros, because there is a great possibility that she would be recognized in one of the seven kingdoms.

Artanaro

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First, I subscibe to the R+L=J theory. Mostly because the timeline doesn't jive with me.

Ned was in the Eyrie with Robert when his brother and Father were killed. Now I'm no expert but Ned's path in the war is as follows (at least to me):

- Ned marries and impregnates Cat in Riverrun.

- Ned and robert wins the Battle of the Bells (approx.) to the southwest of Harrenhall.

- Ned and Robert win the Battle on the Trident

- Ned arrives during the sack of King's Landing.

- Ned lifts the siege of Storms End.

- Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy.

- Ned delivers the sword Dawn to Ashara at Starfall

- Ned returns to Riverrun with Jon.

These events took more or less a year so when did Ned and Ashara concieve? Were they even close to eachother? Don't forget that R+L were humping like bunnies during.

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Good question blackbull. The problem here is you can't prove or disprove a negative (Ned had no contact with Ashara) with our limited knowledge from the text. We know Ned delivered Arthur's sword to Ashara at Starfell, but we do not know where she was during the rest of the war. She could have been at the Eyrie or even hiding in the Riverlands for all we know. But from the evidence we do have, I believe it all points N+A=J based on the arguements I listed. My theory does explain everything from the text, and that's all I really have to work with.

But let me use my magic of extrapolation to try and answer your question. ;) . We know Ashara and Eddard fell in love (based on "died of a broken heart", etc). From the tournament at Harrenhal to Aerys dying is within a year or two's span (too lazy to confirm this, but it seems right). For the two love birds to have some relationship, they must have seen each other after the Harrenhal tourney, so I don't believe Ashara went straight back to Starfell. I think it's alright to assume some they were together for some period before Eddard married Catelyn (though there's still the possibility he conceived Jon after the marriage).

Artanaro

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I think Harrenhall was like Harwin said, some words were exchanged maybe a stolen kiss, and that was it. This is Ned Stark we're talking about, honorable to a fault. He probably couldn't get it up if it ment dishonoring his family. :D

It also seems a little careless to let a commonwoman to run free with such important knowledge to sell to the highest bidder. So somethings up with Wylla. In the meantime Artanaro we'll just agree to disagree until Howland Reed shows abd straightens it out.

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I think there's going to be alot of agreeing to disagreeing in this thread. But one more comment on Ned being unable to "get it up" :cool:. Robb is very much his father's son, and he dishonored himself much more than Ned having Jon did.

In the words of Martin,

"The things we do for love."

Artanaro

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This probably has come up before, but I'll say it anyway as it is of importance if you want to discuss this (I think :P).

The Wolves... was it coincidence? I think not... it's just unlikely in the series that such a thing would be coincidence. Meaning the numbers and gender of the wolves.

Jon gets one as well, an outsider, but still, does this mean he's a son of Ned, a Stark kid (maybe Lyanna's?) or that it's just coincidence (which I find very hard to believe)? I think that, if it's no coincidence, it would be kids of the same father because those wolves are of one litter...

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I must say that most of this argument is weak, and none of while most of the points do support the argument, they don't support it "over R+L=J". There are still stronger evidence that points to R+L=J.

First, let me state that I'm not convinced that Ashara is dead. I would not be totally surprised to see her pop back up. But, one of my biggest problems with this line of argument is that I really cannot for the life of me understand why people refuse to belive that Ashara killed herself. We have no idea how close her and Arthur were. The news of her brothers death could have been enough. (Have you ever had any loved one's in the military? Even thought you should know that there's a real chance they'll die in service, you still don't ever expect to get that letter saying they're dead.) It's just flat asinine to say that she should have expected him to die. But, not only did he die, but Ashara finds out that he died at the hands of the man she loved! And that same man, which Ashara loved, was now married to a woman he didn't love and probably hardly even knew. (Ashara's "prince" was now dead to her.) And to top it all off. that same man she loved had just had some fling with yet ANOTHER woman and fathered a basterd on her. It should come as no surprise what-so-ever that she flung herself from the tower window.

Another couple of points that I have a hard time with:

If Jon was Ned's and Ashara's, then that means Jon would have been conceived AFTER Ned was married to Cat. I really have a hard time belive that Ned would do this.

Also, if Jon was Ned and Ashara's son, I can't see it causing the torment it did about keeping the secret from Cat. Ashara is presumed dead by all. Ned does come to love Cat very much. WHy whould he keep tormenting himself, and causeing that rift between them, by not telling her?

I think that, if it's no coincidence, it would be kids of the same father because those wolves are of one litter...

It just shows he's a Stark, not a son of Ned. If you are going to say that this is proof that he's Ned's because the wolf pups are of the same litter, then you might as well say that this is proof that they are all from the same mother... which we know they are not.

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I really think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Not only is it very poignant in so many ways, it also makes so much more sense than the idea of Jon being Eddard's and Ashara's. Maybe not when you're reading, but later on in analysis, you should see.

Ashara supposedly killed herself because:

a) Her brother was killed

B) She could never have Ned.

We know from Meera Reed's story that the two were in fact very much in love. I think the combination of these two things would be sufficient reason for Ashara to do as she did, regretful as it is.

There is also the fact that if Jon was really Eddard and Ashara's son, why wasn't the boy raised at Starfall with his mother? And if she was his mother, why would she kill herself, having just given life to a beautiful baby boy. And why would Eddard even take his bastard with him, knowing how awful this would be for Catelyn, and how highly unusual such a move would be? And when did Eddard have the time to father a baby on Ashara anyway?

It makes sense from no angle.

On the other hand we know that Lyanna was found dying from childbirth in a tower called The Tower of Joy (!!) and that honourable Ned had to make her a promise, and then, to the surprise of the realm, returns home with a baby boy.

Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. He has the Stark look because he takes after Lyanna, in the same way that Rhaenys had the Dornish look because she took after Elia.

BTW I never get why people find Parris' response to the question of whether or not Jon is R+L=J so interesting. She says "do you really think GRRM would do something that obvious". Since she had known the theory for years, she would say that, wouldn't she? She can hardly confirm it, can she?

There's also the fact that, while GRRM is always ever so keen on garnering more speculation about his books amongst fans, on readings he is always quite mute about revealing anything about the Jon parentage question, to the point where he says that it may be clear to some, but many others (who don't read forums) don't suspect it and he doesn't want to wake any sleeping dogs.

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Nice, the last post I made on this subject got so few replies. This will be fun.

I must say that most of this argument is weak, and none of while most of the points do support the argument, they don't support it "over R+L=J". There are still stronger evidence that points to R+L=J.

like what? I've looked over everything the R+L=J camp uses and my theory fits perfectly.

First, let me state that I'm not convinced that Ashara is dead. I would not be totally surprised to see her pop back up. But, one of my biggest problems with this line of argument is that I really cannot for the life of me understand why people refuse to belive that Ashara killed herself. We have no idea how close her and Arthur were. The news of her brothers death could have been enough. (Have you ever had any loved one's in the military? Even thought you should know that there's a real chance they'll die in service, you still don't ever expect to get that letter saying they're dead.) It's just flat asinine to say that she should have expected him to die. But, not only did he die, but Ashara finds out that he died at the hands of the man she loved! And that same man, which Ashara loved, was now married to a woman he didn't love and probably hardly even knew. (Ashara's "prince" was now dead to her.) And to top it all off. that same man she loved had just had some fling with yet ANOTHER woman and fathered a basterd on her. It should come as no surprise what-so-ever that she flung herself from the tower window.

Let me handle all these points. You use an analogy of people in the military. But people aren't committing suicide left and right when they hear about their loved ones overseas dying. Suicide isn't about motivation. It's about the person's psychological well being. But even so, the professed reasons for her death seems so fake. For Arthur's death to be reason enough to "break her heart" we must assume him and Ned are the only ones worth living for in the world. But that's where everyone has to start rationalizing things to the point of the absurd. She had another brother. Ned doesn't commit suicide when he learns Brandon died because Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar. Why not? Oberyn loved his sister more than anything in the world, and yet he doesn't go on some mad hunt for revenge (15 years later isn't the same).

And now the last straw people use to make it fit. It wasn't Ned getting married or Arthur dying, but Ned killing Arthur that was the breaking point. I don't agree this works. A kingsguard isn't like a normal soldier. People know a soldier's risks with going off to war, but a kingsguard is an entirely different situation. They don't get married. They swear off any inheritance. You know when you put on that white cloak, all that matters is you do your duty to the king. If death is the requirement, just so. It's not the same as having a loved one dying in a war.

If Jon was Ned's and Ashara's, then that means Jon would have been conceived AFTER Ned was married to Cat. I really have a hard time belive that Ned would do this.

Also, if Jon was Ned and Ashara's son, I can't see it causing the torment it did about keeping the secret from Cat. If you are going to say that this is proof that he's Ned's because the wolf pups are of the same litter, then you might as well say that this is proof that they are all from the same mother... which we know they are not.

Now's here something not true, that people are stuck on. From what we all know, it's very possible (even likely) Ned could conceive Jon before he married Catelyn. You really can't tell if a child is a month or two older than another so Jon could very well be older than Robb. When Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, Ned and Ashara were probably still together. So the timeline fits quite well. But the reason people say it doesn't, is because they think if Ashara killed herself at Starfell, she was there since the time Brandon is killed by Aerys. This is a faulty assumption. I wouldn't be surprised if Ashara followed Ned back to the Eyrie after the tournament. That would definitely be the case if it was truly love.

Ashara is presumed dead by all. Ned does come to love Cat very much. WHy whould he keep tormenting himself, and causeing that rift between them, by not telling her?

It just shows he's a Stark, not a son of Ned.

I explained this in my original post, but yeah I'm a terrible writer and sometimes I'm not as direct as I should. Here's the question that you're really asking. If Ashara Dayne is the mother of Jon, why can't Ned tell Catelyn? That's a good question because it would set many things to right in their relationship, but it is easily answerable. Really, it's tough to rationalize Ashara's death with the given facts. But if she had a child, that even further throws into disarray why she would kill herself. Everything Ned does with Jon from not telling him about his mother, to having a word with the servants for starting such a rumor, is to make sure no one knows the child is Ashara, because then no one would believe Ashara is dead without new information.

If people start questioning whether she is still alive, then that brings a lot of attention to why she would go into hiding and be forced to abandon her son. That road leads to exposing the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Something Ned's last fourteen years was about making sure didn't happen. That's why he says Wylla is Jon's mother to Robert. If people learn Ashara is the mother, they stop believing the story about a "broken heart" leading to her death.

Time for my turn to ask the R+L=J crowd questions that make no sense in terms of that theory.

People keep assuming Wylla would know the truth behind Jon's parenthood, because if she's not the mother, she would need some idea who was. Why would Eddard Stark take into his confidence a wet nurse, someone who he probably never met before in his life, such a grave secret as Jon being the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna? And what story could he tell Wylla to convince her to claim the child as her own?

If that's truly what he did, that's up their with trusting Littlefinger and the gold cloaks.

Another question, people assume taking Jon back to Winterfell is the "honorable" thing to do. I so disagree. It makes an eternal wall between him and Catelyn, so why would he do this if the child's mother (or proclaimed mother, Wylla) is still alive? Why can't he just give the child to Wylla to raise?

Another question, in his thoughts he says he needs to tell Jon about his mother? Why never mention of revealing who his father is also?

Please enlighten me. I really hope this post didn't come off as condescending to anyone. Sorry if it did.

Artanaro

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You use an analogy of people in the military. But people aren't committing suicide left and right when they hear about their loved ones overseas dying. Suicide isn't about motivation. It's about the person's psychological well being. But even so, the professed reasons for her death seems so fake.

Suicide is, in general, an illogical act. I don't think there needs to be any sort of logical motivation for it. If someone is so steeped in grief and depression that all they want is for the pain to stop, reminding them they still have a brother really isn't going to stop them.

Just sayin'.

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Suicide is, in general, an illogical act. I don't think there needs to be any sort of logical motivation for it. If someone is so steeped in grief and depression that all they want is for the pain to stop, reminding them they still have a brother really isn't going to stop them.

Just sayin'.

Here's the thing, suicide is logical in the sense it corresponds rationally to the events of a person's life and psychological mindset. Someone not "steeped in grief and depression" won't commit suicide (you can make up situations where this isn't necessarily the case though, a Japanese kamikaze for example).

My purpose behind arguing with the motivations behind the suicide are to cast doubt on it actually happening. If you stubbed your toe, maybe that could cause enough grief and depression for someone to want to kill themself, but I don't think that's likely. I consider the stated reason for Ashara Dayne's suicide to be quite doubtful, especially since her body was never found. Everything from the "broken heart" to her brother dying causing her end seems so forced. And along with my other arguements, R+L=J stops making sense.

The main reason people support R+L=J is because it explains most of the facts, AND (VERY IMPORTANT HERE) they can't fathom a scenario where something else could explain them. I used to believe in R+L=J, until I started to think about Ashara's death. Everything stopped making sense in terms of the previous theory when you really start questioning everything. Points people take for granted are actually important in derailing R+L=J. (Ashara wasn't always at Starfell, why does Eddard feel guilty about not revealing the names of Jon's dead parents). You just don't notice them until you look at everything with a critical eye.

I've looked at the R+L=J over and over again. Everything is explained by my theory, from the foreshadowing to Eddard's thoughts. I'll be glad to respond to anything anyone cares to throw at my theory. Good luck though.

Artanaro

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Here's a thought Ive been having, what if Jon is actually a legitimate son of of Ned? That Ned quietly married a woman prior to Brandon and Rickard's death, and he set his first born son and first wife aside in the name of duty to his house and a second marraige?

Having your love and husband say he has to set you aside to marry some other woman is a more believeable context for suicide for Ashara. Ned is left to name his trueborn son to the woman he loved as a bastard to preserve matters. I could also see this being a great source of personal pain for Ned, morever, Jon would in fact be the rightful heir to winterfell. The subject of his mother would be completely off limits.

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Here's a thought Ive been having, what if Jon is actually a legitimate son of of Ned? That Ned quietly married a woman prior to Brandon and Rickard's death, and he set his first born son and first wife aside in the name of duty to his house and a second marraige?

I really think this is what happened, but I can't prove it. But there's alot of evidence for A+N=J. But I still think he brings the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna to Ashara and then she fakes her death. One of Martin's themes appears to be that true love between two people is what's important, not whether their relationship is bound by social custom and the relationship should definitely not be based on lust as many bastards are born from. Ned and Ashara's relationship along with Rhaegar and Lyanna provide a major contrast to Robert and Cersei or Lysa and Jon Arryn.

Ser Greyrost, where's your definitive proof on Robb being older than Jon? I'd love to hear it.

Artanaro

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