gryphon strike Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 [quote name='Paxter' post='1582785' date='Nov 9 2008, 12.56']At least then we don't have a hypocritical justice system that simultaneously prohibits and endorses the complete destruction of human life.[/quote] The thing is that it is hypocritical Paxter, the idea behind the death penalty is that in some circumstances the risk outweighs the possability of rehabilitation thus since they have already decided the law does not apply to them ( you know killing stealing etc ) they have no right to its protection thus the are removed from being a threat or burden to a legal society. Yeah its convoluted but makes more sense than leaving them alive as a punishment to the society. The thing is that all too often innocent people get convicted either due to incompetance of the legal system or a deliberate miscarriage of justice ( say police framing someone ). Thus I personally do not agree with it. Nice headline Stubby :P and EEEWWW genital warts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldLordPlumm Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 [url="http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24641248-5006301,00.html"]http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0...5006301,00.html[/url] This is bad joo joo. I'll be around later guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 [quote name='OldLordPlumm' post='1586927' date='Nov 13 2008, 07.37'][url="http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24641248-5006301,00.html"]http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0...5006301,00.html[/url] This is bad joo joo. I'll be around later guys.[/quote] Well OLP what can I say they need to keep a close eye on both gangs and send any of them found to be carrying weapons straight back to where they came from. It is a clear condition of entry as a refugee or immigrate. So they want to do this sort of thing then it is simple they get sent back to the Sudan. Same for any of those gangs found armed, sorry but they either accept that they are in Australia now and act accordingly or they go back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 [quote name='gryphon strike' post='1584979' date='Nov 12 2008, 01.54']thus the are removed from being a threat or burden to a legal society. Yeah its convoluted but makes more sense than leaving them alive as a punishment to the society.[/quote] But why do they need to be removed from society by death? Why can't solitary confinement in maximum security imprisonment suffice? And (I'm pre-empting you here), but don't tell me about the costs involved in having adequate maximum security imprsionment. We live in a society where people are wealthy enough to fork out $2,500 to meet Andre Rieu after his concerts. And I'm sure there are wealthy people like this in countries that have the death penalty too. Surely this money could be better allocated to ensure that everyone in society is guaranteed the right to live, no matter what wrongdoing they have committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 [quote name='Paxter' post='1587310' date='Nov 13 2008, 13.15']But why do they need to be removed from society by death? Why can't solitary confinement in maximum security imprisonment suffice? And (I'm pre-empting you here), but don't tell me about the costs involved in having adequate maximum security imprsionment. We live in a society where people are wealthy enough to fork out $2,500 to meet Andre Rieu after his concerts. And I'm sure there are wealthy people like this in countries that have the death penalty too. Surely this money could be better allocated to ensure that everyone in society is guaranteed the right to live, no matter what wrongdoing they have committed.[/quote] I don't disagree with you but honestly how are you going to do it fairly? I mean if someone earns more money then it often means that they work harder or at a higher level than someone else. So why should the more competant be penalised so heavily? For example I used to earn good money for being in charge of just over 100 people and would work from 6am till 7pm most days, now why should I then be forced to pay more because I am compensated more than them, though if you looked at hourly rates I was actually earning less than my lowest paid worker. True at the end I was getting all my work done by 9am which was my official start time and then was there just to deal with problems but even so I fail to see why I should have to pay to keep someone alive who has already decided that the rules of society do not apply to them. As I said I don't agree with the death penalty except for extreme cases like serial killers and even then I wouldn't support it unless we had a trustworthy police force. I remember many years back in Victoria there was a serial killer operating who always dropped his victims at the same section of road, the thing is that they always denied there was a serial killer operating in the area and supposedly had no idea who it was. A prominent personages ( in Victoria ) son died and wow guess what the killings stopped. Amazing coincidence that isn't it? Now I know that Victoria has had a bad rep for corrupt police and with due cause but thats going a bit far. Then we have the situation here in SA where the speaker of the house was aproached by victims of sexual abuse and started an enquiry. He had 10 witnesses to pedaphile actions by various members of parliment, witnesses that the police had never been able to find apparently. When they came forward they suddenly started dying, of the ten 5 committed suicide, 4 recanted after "visits" by police and one is still missing. So being able to trust a police force is not exactly something I myself am likely to do. Individual officers yes not a problem, my landlords are police officers and they are great people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyrazer Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 This was suggested by another poster on this forum which I agree with. That is, the death penalty should be reserved only for repeat offenders of severe crimes such as high-degree murders and rapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Heh, apparently Imam Sumudra went down shouting 'Allah akbar' but Amrozi was scared shitless, yeah, martyrdom sounded so cool right until you were up against the wall... A girl I went to school with lost her mother in those attacks has horrible burns down her back, so I didn't shed a tear, but that said I'd rather they'd rotted in Kembangkuning . The Indonesians played fast and loose with their own constitution to convict them and the execution process gave the grinning fuckers way more publicity than was deserved - life in prison isn't anywhere near as glamorous as the firing squad. Its never easy to oppose the death penalty thanks to pricks like these but that's the whole point - if you're willing to suspend it for the likes of the Bali Bombers you might as well bring it back wholesale; murder is murder wether it's one or two hundred and two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 [quote name='gryphon strike' post='1588506' date='Nov 14 2008, 12.21']I don't disagree with you but honestly how are you going to do it fairly? I mean if someone earns more money then it often means that they work harder or at a higher level than someone else. So why should the more competant be penalised so heavily?[/quote] Umm...I'm sure you're aware of this, but our entire tax system is a progressive system in which more highly paid people get taxed at a higher rate. If you truly question the basic principle that "more competent people should be penalised so heavily", then perhaps you need to form a new political party that advocates proportional (rather than progressive) income taxation. Anyway, this whole discussion of "how are you going to do it fairly" is moot here in Aus because the debate is ended. Australians decided years ago that the burden should fall on the wealthy to supply funds that will be used to maintain high-security prison facilities rather than keep the death penalty. And, IMO, that's the way it should be worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 [quote name='Paxter' post='1588953' date='Nov 15 2008, 01.25']Umm...I'm sure you're aware of this, but our entire tax system is a progressive system in which more highly paid people get taxed at a higher rate. If you truly question the basic principle that "more competent people should be penalised so heavily", then perhaps you need to form a new political party that advocates proportional (rather than progressive) income taxation. Anyway, this whole discussion of "how are you going to do it fairly" is moot here in Aus because the debate is ended. Australians decided years ago that the burden should fall on the wealthy to supply funds that will be used to maintain high-security prison facilities rather than keep the death penalty. And, IMO, that's the way it should be worldwide.[/quote] Moot or not it still doesn't make the system fair. Nor do I think that your opinion is the majority in Australia in re to the death penalty, most people I know have said that in extreme cases they agree with it, but only and ONLY if the various police forces are first proven to be trustworthy. The majority of people who commit murder never reoffend once released from prison,well thats according to the stats anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 [quote name='gryphon strike' post='1590285' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.07']Nor do I think that your opinion is the majority in Australia in re to the death penalty, most people I know have said that in extreme cases they agree with it, but only and ONLY if the various police forces are first proven to be trustworthy.[/quote] You need more than just anecdotal evidence to support this. Simply saying "most people I know" is not really good enough. For what it's worth, most people I know are completely against the death penalty, no matter the circumstances. The facts are: no political party in Australia supports the death penalty. And these political parties are the voice of the Aus. people. If people really did support the death penalty, wouldn't one of these parties have brought it up by now? This discussion leads me to the inevitable conclusion: most Australians do not support the death penalty. And rightly so IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 [quote name='Paxter' post='1590320' date='Nov 16 2008, 09.41']You need more than just anecdotal evidence to support this. Simply saying "most people I know" is not really good enough. For what it's worth, most people I know are completely against the death penalty, no matter the circumstances. The facts are: no political party in Australia supports the death penalty. And these political parties are the voice of the Aus. people. If people really did support the death penalty, wouldn't one of these parties have brought it up by now? This discussion leads me to the inevitable conclusion: most Australians do not support the death penalty. And rightly so IMO.[/quote] Reintroduction of the death penalty has been discussed in recent times, the political parties that speak for the people however refuse to discuss it. Well apart from the looney ones. The political parties are not nor have they ever been the voice of the people. Sorry Paxter but if you truly think that then you are in for a very rude awakening. If you really want to know who a political party represents then take a look at their actions and just who is helped by them. Thats the ones who have paid enough money to be represented by them. If your just going to listen to their rhetoric then you will be baffled by BS all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 According to the last set of [url="http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/australians_reject_death_penalty_for_murder_cases/"]polls [/url]on the topic we appear to be opposed to the death penalty for murder here 67-25 (7% undecided) but 55% are happy for Aussies abroad to cop it for trafficking. Figure that out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh_wulff Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 eek must make a quick exit people are discussing serious stuff here ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyrazer Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 [quote name='Horza' post='1590499' date='Nov 16 2008, 16.22']but 55% are happy for Aussies abroad to cop it for trafficking. Figure that out...[/quote] I also approve of this. A country has it's own set of rules and if you're in that country, then obey their rules. If you visit somebody's home, there would be certain things they would not like you to do, and you should not do them whether you do it in your own home or not. Also, it's a well known fact that these countries reserve the death penatly for drug trafficking and no doubt these traffickers would know the risks and the penalty if caught. There's no illusions or traps, it's crystal clear and if you are dumb enough to risk it because you want to shoot yourself up in some Bali nightclub to have yourself a bit of a good time and you're busted, too fucking bad. You obviously don't value life enough for trafficking drugs to a country that is well known for executing drug traffickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 [quote name='gryphon strike' post='1590331' date='Nov 16 2008, 08.26']Reintroduction of the death penalty has been discussed in recent times, the political parties that speak for the people however refuse to discuss it. Well apart from the looney ones. The political parties are not nor have they ever been the voice of the people. Sorry Paxter but if you truly think that then you are in for a very rude awakening.[/quote] I think you are grossly underestimating the power of people/voters in the political arena. Politics is all about votes. And the fact is that, if there are votes to be won by putting the death penalty on the agenda, then politicians would do it. The fact that it isn't on the agenda speaks volumes for the fact that the death penalty is not wanted by the majority of Australians. Horza's poll results lend credence to this proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 I went to a party named mooks after a sign my friend found in a random electrical closet. I'm drunk and I need answers. He says mooks is Austrailian. What is it? That is alll !!1DDDDDINSDALE!!!w31 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyrazer Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 [quote name='Dinsdale!' post='1590551' date='Nov 16 2008, 20.25']I went to a party named mooks after a sign my friend found in a random electrical closet. I'm drunk and I need answers. He says mooks is Austrailian. What is it? That is alll !!1DDDDDINSDALE!!!w31 4[/quote] Was your friend drunk when he told you "mooks" is Australian? The only time I've heard the word is from the Scorsese movie Mean Streets where that fat guy calls another guy a "mook" and then everybody starts going like "What's a mook?" Anyway, Mean Streets is set in New York....which is not exactly Australia, but to attempt to answer your question, [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mook"]here[/url] is the urban dictionary link for "mook" for some amusing definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delete this account pls Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Yeah, like Skyrazer said it's from Mean Streets. I believe the adoption of it as a brand is an Australian thing though, Mooks shirts and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 [quote name='Paxter' post='1590550' date='Nov 16 2008, 19.49']I think you are grossly underestimating the power of people/voters in the political arena. Politics is all about votes. And the fact is that, if there are votes to be won by putting the death penalty on the agenda, then politicians would do it. The fact that it isn't on the agenda speaks volumes for the fact that the death penalty is not wanted by the majority of Australians. Horza's poll results lend credence to this proposition.[/quote] As i said look at the actions and who profits by it, not the rhetoric. Just as an example the Children overboard scam that helped win the Liberals an election, who profited by it apart from the lying scumbags who won the election? Look it up for yourself since I doubt you will believe me or a link I can find for you. But doesn't it seem strange to you that it was a private company who ran the prisons that the refugees were kept in. Now follow it along do they get paid more for doing things quickly and getting the detainees released into the community or sent back. No they got paid for having them in prison thus we get children locked up for 5 years waiting to find out if they will be allowed into the country. Paxter stop believing what the scumbags tell you and start using your eyes and mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 [quote name='gryphon strike' post='1591195' date='Nov 17 2008, 12.32']Paxter stop believing what the scumbags tell you and start using your eyes and mind.[/quote] Frankly, I'm not interested in what the "scumbags" are telling me. I'm just trying to assess the desirability of the death penalty in the hearts and minds of 20 million Australians. And I think that most Aussies believe that the death penalty is an antiquated and abhorrent mechanism for dispensing justice. The fact that third parties aligned to the various political parties might derive some pecuniary benefit from the abolishment of the death penalty is, IMO, purely ancillary to the overall consensus among Australians that the death penalty is just plain wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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