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Ser King

The Game of Thrones ADWD spoilers

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[quote name='nya across the narrow sea' post='1574999' date='Nov 2 2008, 19.43']I mean, you can't even run for president if you weren't born in the US; i don't know how you can be an effective leader if you've never even been to the place you're supposed to lead.[/quote]
Dumbest law in the US ever, if they had implemented it from the beginning you would've missed your first 10 presidents at least, among them luminaries like Washington or Adams.

You are either a citizen of a country, with full rights, or you are not.

You also forget that not everybody on this forum is American.

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Not to get too much further OT, but I'd like to point out that both Washington and Adams were as close to natural-born US citizens as an adult could be at that time. They were both born in what became part of the USA (Virginia and Massachusetts, respectively). I'm not sure how it worked when states were added to the union, but I expect that any natural-born citizen of the newly acquired state would also be considered a natural born US citizen once statehood became official.

Without arguing the merits of the U.S. law and to get back to nya's original point: the comparison (I think) was simply to say that someone born/raised in a different country may not have the same love/appreciation/ for and understanding of the people and culture of the land.

BTW, if you think that's the dumbest US law ever, you obviously don't know many of our laws. We've got plenty much dumber than that ;)

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Well, to get swiftly back on topic I think...

Targs - Dany will come over, save the world from the Others, think she's done it and the throne is hers when BANG she dies rather unexpectedly. Before this though, the Targs and Starks will ally themselves as defenders of the North.

Lannisters - Tywin is dead, Cersei is in jail, Tyrion is a turncloak and Jaime doesn't seem interested anymore. This house has had it's strongest hour. The Lannisters are on their way out.

Martells - Obviously allying themselves to the Targs, they could actually be the snake in the grass winners here. But more likely I think they'll become the second most powerful House at the end of the seires, giving fealty to Jon Targaryen.

Tyrells - currently, these guys are pretty much in charge. But Mace has no head for controlling the realm, Margeary is another Cersei and will royally fuck it up and the Queens of Thorns will inevitably snuff it soon, leaving the house without a real leader.

Greyjoys - a good chance they Greyjoys will come out of this quite well. Who's leading them at the time is hard to say, but I think as long as it's not Euron, they'll reach some kind of alliance and bend the knee.

Tully - Edmure and the Blackfish will both stay alive and keep the house going strong, swearing fealty to House Stark and more reluctantly, Jon.

Baratheon - Stannis will die, Gendry will some how be made aware of his heritage and be legitimized by Jon, as now no one would rally and support a Baratheon king.

Arryns - all pretty much dead. The Eyrie becomes a free for all with LF hoping to claim it, only to lose to Sansa.

Starks - I think the Starks are going to have quite the come back eventually. Now Jon is officially Jon Stark and Jon Targaryen, he has a lot of loyalty and power, and can rally both the North and Dorne to him. When the war is done, Jon becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms, with Bran resurfacing as his Warden of the North. Sansa is Warden of the East, Arya dies without any of her family ever knowing what happened to her.

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Seeing as the books go, I think victory is going to be second-rated goal. More important is the matter of survival. If the warring between men doesn't kill everybody, then the Others will do it for them if G.R.R.M doesn't introduce some new weapon against them. Other than Dany's dragons I can't see what could stop them, but there is always Sam and whatever he discovers in Oldtown. And we can't forget Bran and wherever he is going. He is heading deeper into the north, maybe he will defeat all the Other's singlehandedly, but then again, heroics isn't the author's way.

Should the Other's be defeated the power situation in Westeros will be greatly different and very unpredictable. But I would like to see Starks rise again. Not with Jon on the lead, he has too much honor. I'm afraid he might just end on the Wall. Bran could perish fighting the Others, but there is the youngest boy. Rickon with his wildling guardian has many open roads. He even may get the loyalty of wildlings through his guardian, whose name I have forgotten.

Bolton's and Frey's must fall. And I can't see any other fate for them. They have turned their sides and no one really can trust them. Once a turncloack, always a turncloack. And Frey's are already dying by Catelyn. It is only a matter of time, when she turns her hate against Boltons and then Lannisters and so forth to everyone who wronged her son in any way. And she will have no mercy as can be seen by Brienne's fate.

But there is always the Littlefinger, whose schemes might turn around the whole table. As he trains Sansa in his Game of Thrones, she might actually become very skilled in it and it might by the man's downfall. And then she equips her new set of skills to revenge her family, her wolf. All the possibilities are open.

What comes to Targ's then I don't much care for her. But should she meet Tyrion, she would be in all kinds of trouble, if Imp decides her a good way to return to Westeros. Anyway, I don't dare to guess what becomes of them.

As far as I am concerned the return of Starks and the downfall of named families would make my day, when the series gets finished one day.

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I really hope that the Starks regain the North.

I hope that Tyrion gains control of House Lannister, without any problems, and without having to deal with anyone trying to kill him.

I hope that Dany takes control of the Seven Kingdoms, and systematically undoes all of Cersei's screwups.

Incidentally, if Jon is half Targaryen, might Dany not then force him to have a bastard? After all, she cannot have children, and as such, if Jon is half Targaryen his bloodline is the only one left with a legitimate claim to the throne if she dies.

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Hi, new here but I've been lurking for a long time now.

I'm not sure about the rest of Westeros (other than that the Freys and Boltons must die), but regarding the situation in the North, I think that Melisandre will be the downfall of Stannis - most likely leading a charge against the Others on the ill-founded notion that he'll win through sheer force of prophecy, while Jon Snow* will stay on as Lord Commander and 'hold the fort' so to speak.

Bran's going to turn into some half-mythical character, probably an 'emissary' so to speak from the humans to whatever remains of the Children of the Forest; and lead a force of them or wargs/etc in support of the besieged humans on the Wall.

At this rate, regarding the Starks, only Arya or Sansa will be able to succeed to rule House Stark (I'm discounting Rickon due to the his age); with Sansa the more likely candidate as Arya has discarded her old identity to become the Faceless.

*Regarding Jon Snow, Chirios: where did you encounter the idea that Jon might be half Targaryen? Because I realised the possibility too after rereading over the circumstances of Lyanna Stark's death; she was apparently eloping at the time with Rhaegar and was missing for around a year (the length of the rebellion, and just over the 9months needed for pregnancy). She was also found in a 'sea of blood' (possibly from childbirth?) by Ned, and who made him promise her something (possibly to look after her illegitimate son as his own, and to not reveal her infidelity?). Coincidentally, Ned, despite his withdrawn/cold and strictly honourable nature, returns from the rebellion with a bastard son (Jon Snow) whose parentage he will not disclose, but who he looks after like his own.

Therefore, Jon could be the savior of man foretold in the prophecies, since he is also of dragon blood (and also of Stark blood, giving him double entitlement to defend the North and defeat the Others).

This is even more likely a scenario when you consider that Danaerys will be busy reuniting the Kingdom under her banner once she reaches Westeros and will not be able to rush North at any speed. (She might also encounter Arya and Tyrion on the way there, providing at once, someone who is a link to House Stark with the same enemies and the kills to dispatch them (once Arya masters the skills of the Faceless), and someone with the best political skills and knowledge).

Thus, [and speculation alert] the culmination of the war against the Others would see Jon Snow leading the Nightwatch and other human defenders on the Wall for the first part of the war, with Danaerys reinforcing him from the South once she finishes consolidating her rule over Westeros, and Bran bringing the whole thing to a close by returning to the battle with his supernatural allies.

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Actually I wonder if any of the major families will make it out in the long run. The Lannisters seem to be almost as numerous as Freys and Tyrells, but the Baratheons, the Starks, the Tullys and the Arryns are almost extinguished. Even if Storm`s End falls, you will have a question of succession of in the Baratheons, since Tommen cannot hold Storm`s End and the only other male Baratheon of note who hasn`t been named a traitor is Edric Storm. Of course one could say that the children of Myrcella would inherit, but that would put Storm`s End into the hands of Martells and the Marcher Lords wouldn`t like that.

As for the Tullys, they are finished. Jon may have claim to Winterfell, but no claim to Riverrun. Sansa would have claim to Riverrun, but she has been named a traitor and I still don`t see how Littlefinger will undo that. Of course Bran and Rickon could make claims...but we`re not really sure where either of them are.

The Arryns. Robert, then the Hardyng boy. So it could go from Arryn to Hardyng should Robert not make it to 12.

The Starks are also in danger of being extinguished. Bran and Rickon are the only males left to continue the name and I don`t think Bran is capable of doing the business, so the fate of the Stark line lies in Rickon. Jon has decided not to take the Stark name and some people think he`s not even a Stark but a Targaryen.

And finally the Targaryens. The prophecy of Dany`s barreness aside, she is the only survivor of the family (without including the possible others Jon, Tyrion, Bittersteel`s kids) she is the only hope for the family.

Then there are attainted families like the Florents and others whose outcome have yet to be determined. Will Garlan wipe out the Florents inside Brightwater Keep? Or will he let them leave? Will they go across the sea, or will they be taken in by someone else.

This has probably already been discussed ad nauseum, but I`m rooting for all the families that are low on numbers.

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HOUSE STARK.

Otherwise, what is the POINT of this series? (Much like the What is the POINT of Rickon? question.) And no, I don't think it's to spin out a complicated, atypical fantasy series with fascinating characters, gut-wrenching twists, politicking nobles and an overall fight between good and evil plus dragons, sorceresses and olden races of mystical entities OH MY. I think it's all that + STARK DEVASTATION THANK YOU. You can read that any way you like. In fact, I'll just say it straight out. House Stark is going to somehow manage SOMEHOW MANAGE to devastate DEVASTATE EVERY PART OF THE OPPOSITION until they're dead EXTREMELY GONE DEAD. At least they effing better! I'm not suffering all this misleading buildup and character killings just to see them get exterminated like little bugs on the heel of human folly while I gnash my teeth and bleed all over the pages. And no, this isn't projection. This is PREDICTION. BADASS PREDICTION.

I am sick of the Starks dying off in hefty, unrepentant chunks. Every time it happens (or fake happens, DAMN IT GEORGE) I just throw the book down and have a little VERY LITTLE cry. This goes for their pets too.

Sorry. Just had to get that pent-up OH SO ACUTE frustration off my chest. How dare he do this to me...

House Stark!! House Stark!! (PLEASE.)

For the record, I don't care about all the other houses. Unless they help out. Then fine. They can live through the STARK DEVASTATION THAT'S COMING TO YOU.

Peace out.

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*rolls on floor laughing*

That was the most illogical, funny, and just plain out amazing thing I have read on here ever. Thank you.

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HOUSE STARK.

Otherwise, what is the POINT of this series? (Much like the What is the POINT of Rickon? question.) And no, I don't think it's to spin out a complicated, atypical fantasy series with fascinating characters, gut-wrenching twists, politicking nobles and an overall fight between good and evil plus dragons, sorceresses and olden races of mystical entities OH MY. I think it's all that + STARK DEVASTATION THANK YOU. You can read that any way you like. In fact, I'll just say it straight out. House Stark is going to somehow manage SOMEHOW MANAGE to devastate DEVASTATE EVERY PART OF THE OPPOSITION until they're dead EXTREMELY GONE DEAD. At least they effing better! I'm not suffering all this misleading buildup and character killings just to see them get exterminated like little bugs on the heel of human folly while I gnash my teeth and bleed all over the pages. And no, this isn't projection. This is PREDICTION. BADASS PREDICTION.

I am sick of the Starks dying off in hefty, unrepentant chunks. Every time it happens (or fake happens, DAMN IT GEORGE) I just throw the book down and have a little VERY LITTLE cry. This goes for their pets too.

Sorry. Just had to get that pent-up OH SO ACUTE frustration off my chest. How dare he do this to me...

House Stark!! House Stark!! (PLEASE.)

For the record, I don't care about all the other houses. Unless they help out. Then fine. They can live through the STARK DEVASTATION THAT'S COMING TO YOU.

Peace out.

lol, Id skip the rest of the series before you have a nervous breakdown

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I feel like GRRM has always had some kind of bias for the Lannisters. No matter what seems to happen to them, they always come up on top, he even has us loving Jaime now! I will absolutely jump off a cliff if Cersei ends up finding a champion after all and retains her spot as the Queen Regent. That woman is so toxic, she makes me nauseous!!

However, that being said, I think Tyrion would be a plausible candidate to come out on top. Yes, he's probably going to train dragons, but what happens if the dragons begin listening to him and only him? He's got amazing wits, the only time he's ever been fooled was the one time he fell in love in the series, and he's the only one who's ego isn't too big to get into the way of success. Daeny is learning how to lead and all, but she's very proud, and I think it would be all too easy for her to miss the signs if one of her people were to suddenly turn on her. She mistakenly feels that people will just follow her lead because of who she is, and as we have seen, she tends to trust too easily because of this sense of entitlement she has.

I like the Targaryens fine, but I'd kind of like to see Tyrion swipe the throne from under her feet.

I imagine Jon will think of Aegon when the throne is offered to him and his lineage discovered but will choose to "take the black" because of his oaths. I mean, remember that Jon is a man of his word, he is essentially Ned Stark. He will always do the right thing no matter who it hurts.

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Oh Bran. I was totally loving your prophecy until I read this:

Arya dies without any of her family ever knowing what happened to her.

If GRRM does this to me, I might die. She's Arya Stark for goodness sake. In my opinion, she's going to finish her transformation into a complete and utter bad ass and come back to Westeros like her idol Nymeria and finish of her "death list." I mean, if she doesn't come back to Westeros...what's the point of that whole list to begin with????

Can you tell I love Arya?? :rofl:

~ Jane

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I will absolutely jump off a cliff if Cersei ends up finding a champion after all and retains her spot as the Queen Regent. That woman is so toxic, she makes me nauseous!!

I think you might want to take base jumping lessons as it's doubtful the High Sparrow is the younger, more beautiful queen prophesied to cast Cersei down.

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I would like to see the kingdom be divided into the North and the South. The Starks get the North and the Targs get the South. The Starks never really fit in in the South and I can't see any member of the Stark family being comfortable ruling all of the land. Dany has proved over and over that she is fair-minded, strong, capable, and her life experiences have set her on the path towards being a great leader.

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Well, houses in real life rose and fell all the time. I mean, imperial families (roman empire) died out even when they had the added bonus of it being easy to adopt fresh blood into the family. It would be silly to not see a least some houses being wiped out during the run of the books. (we ignore the fact that the Starks for example have ruled an insane amount of time, no way that could happen irl) :)

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Stark should return to Winterfell, Jojen dreamed about it and his dreams were proven right everytime.

I also hope Dany will not be victorious, and Starks will not become Kings of Westeros (they belong to the North).

I seea lot of similarity beetwen Starks and Atreides - they are both very honorable houses that inspire loyalty in their subjects. They both left their homeland that was in their blood (North, Caladan) and got slaughtered, their experienced leaders die at the start, and their children posses incredible powers. I just hope Starks will not become hated supreme rulers like Atreides :thumbsdown:, which is another reason I want them to be Kings of the North only.

I would be most happy if Seven Kingdoms again become seperate seven (or more) kingdoms, with Starks being powerfull wargs and having ice dragons. :thumbsup:

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My best guess at this point:

- The three heads of the dragon are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. Jon = Rhaegar + Lyanna, Tyrion = Aegon + Johanna.

- Melisandre is the Night's Queen, seduces Jon in a moment of weakness and transforms him into the Night's King.

- Stannis and his Northmen allies face off against Jon. Stannis learns he is no Azor Ahai reborn and that his faux Lightbringer is as useful against the Others as a plastic lightsaber, gets himself killed.

- Jon storms the Twins and massacres the Freys. The Others cross into the Riverlands around the same time Dany arrives in Westeros.

- Qyburn is an agent of the Others, poisoning Cersei's mind with bad counsel and weakening Westeros in advance of the Others' invasion.

- Cersei regains power through Qyburn's plotting and names him Hand. While Cersei was in prison, Qyburn sends assassins to kill Tommen and Myrcella. Tommen is killed, Myrcella's body double is killed by mistake. Doran keeps the real Myrcella at the Water Gardens to protect and everyone believes she has been killed. Cersei is driven insane.

- Cersei ignores the threat of the Others while attempting to destroy Dany, who she now believes is the younger queen in Maggy's prophecy. Jaime realizes Dany is the only one who can stop the Others and is left with no choice but to kill Cersei.

- Dany defeats the Others and kills Jon. However, shortly after the victory someone close to Dany is manipulated into betraying and killing her by Littlefinger.

- The Vale is the only kingdom not devastated by the war, and Littlefinger maneuvers to position himself as the new King or Steward of whatever. Sansa and Tyrion turn the tables against him. Tyrion storms the Eyrie with the last dragon and a force of mountain clansmen. Littlefinger flies.

- Tyrion and Sansa rule the Seven Kingdoms as king and queen. The prophecy that Rhaegar believed referred to himself and Lyanna is fulfilled through Tyrion and Sansa.

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Whatever Sansa accomplishes (and I do believe she will accomplish a great deal) I don't believe she will be the ruling Stark in Winterfell. Lady is dead. If it is a Time for Wolves at the end of the series, Sansa will have to find her way somehow else, because she is no longer a Stark in the symbolic way that seems to matter. I think Littlefinger's plan for her to marry Harry the Heir will actually happen, and she'll be Lady Arryn.

I actually believe Bran and Arya will somehow have to carve out a place for the Stark family...but end up leaving the future of the House to Rickon and his future descendants.

I believe that if the Lannisters survive, it will be through a side branch of the house, perhaps through Kevan and his son Martyn. (Martyn is still alive, right? I know Lancel married into another house, and Willem was killed by the Karstarks.) Tywin's dead, Cercei will be, Jaime will be (even though I would prefer otherwise, but even if he did somehow survive he would never become Lord Lannister), and I think Tyrion will be Otherwise Occupied.

I believe the Baratheons will survive - Edric Storm will be legitimized and marry his cousin Shirei (Stannis' daughter) and they'll continue the House.

I think the Boltons will be exterminated.

The Martells will endure, no matter what happens. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. For some reason I think Arianne won't be the Lady of the house, though she is heir. It'll be Trystanne and Marcella after Doran.

The Tyrells will blow with the winds and survive. I think Mace will die by the end of the series, and Willas will be ruling lord, however. Besides, there are Tyrells everywhere, tons of cadet branches of the family.

I think the Targaryens will rule Westeros again, but Dany and Jon won't, for very long, if at all. I think there are other members of the family we have yet to see who will be involved with populating the next generation of Targaryens - particularly because Dany is supposedly barren, and Jon has his vow.

I'm not really sure about the other houses. The Greyjoys, for instance, are in a very volatile position, IMHO.

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