Syrio neither dead nor Jaqen

[Guest Other-in-law]

One of the funny things about the claim that Syrio would run way, despite his specific words to the contrary, is how it completely ignores the culture of his background. Syrio was a water dancer, the highest status of the bravos, Braavosi swordsmen who strut and swagger through the alleys at night looking for any excuse to fight and kill each other.

Why? Are they suicidal? No, they have merely developed attitudes that are so prideful of their own abilities that they wantonly risk their lives to prove them. Syrio was one of the very best of these, good enough to be a water dancer and survive his tenure as First Sword (perhaps a new Sealord took office, and each one appoints his own First Sword) and go into retirement. So now he's an old man, very skilled, but with what to look forward to exactly? Family? If so, what is he doing in exile in Westeros? He gets a job teaching fencing to the hand's daughter, when events provide him with one last opportunity to really exercise his skill and his fearlessness, defending his client's daughter. He actually starts talking like a bravo, mocking his opponents and declaring that he does not run away from a fight.

Why on earth would he go back on his declaration and the bravo culture that he has lived his life by, just to survive and grow older, watching his teeth fall out one by one? Why wouldn't he embrace the chance to go out in a blaze of glory, like any bravo would dream of? Fighting to the death would hardly be 'stupid' from his perspective, it would simply be continuing to abide by the ethos he's lived his life by.

[SFDanny]

OIL, I wouldn't suggest that Syrio would abandon his culture, his way of life, or his sense of what his honor mandates he do under the circumstances. That is very different from suggesting his words about not running means he has to fight everyone in the Red Keep in order to be true to himself. Now, that maybe a slight exaggeration of the positions of some in this debate, but not much of one. The way I read this is simple, Syrio is not going to back down from the fight with Trant in order to save his life. He sees it as both his duty to his life as a the First Sword of Braavos AND as Arya's protector to do whatever he must to give her the opportunity to escape. What happens after that is really the question, in my view at least. Why escaping from the Red Keep after he has done his duty means he "runs" is beyond me. I think it takes a very weird interpretation of his words to think so.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1581738' date='Nov 7 2008, 15.42']OIL, I wouldn't suggest that Syrio would abandon his culture, his way of life, or his sense of what his honor mandates he do under the circumstances. That is very different from suggesting his words about not running means he has to fight everyone in the Red Keep in order to be true to himself. Now, that maybe a slight exaggeration of the positions of some in this debate, but not much of one. The way I read this is simple, Syrio is not going to back down from the fight with Trant in order to save his life. He sees it as both his duty to his life as a the First Sword of Braavos AND as Arya's protector to do whatever he must to give her the opportunity to escape. What happens after that is really the question, in my view at least. Why escaping from the Red Keep after he has done his duty means he "runs" is beyond me. I think it takes a very weird interpretation of his words to think so.[/quote]


The point is, if you are going to protect a child from someone that is going to pursue her (in order to allow her time to escape), you are not going to leave alive anyone who can immediately report back what happened... and Trant is very much alive. If Trant had died, I'd agree that it is possible that he escaped afterwards. That way, no one would know how Arya escaped, whether she was on a ship (or a horse, or...), who was with her, etc. Which would have made her much more difficult to find.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1581738' date='Nov 7 2008, 17.42']Why escaping from the Red Keep after he has done his duty means he "runs" is beyond me. I think it takes a very weird interpretation of his words to think so.[/quote]
Meryn Trant is still alive. I don't see it as a weird interpretion to say that Syrio coming away from that fight against a better armed and armoured foe who had just ordered Syrio's death would entail "running". What plausible series of events would allow them both to live, but Syrio not having backed down?

[quote]That is very different from suggesting his words about not running means he [b]has to fight everyone in the Red Keep[/b] in order to be true to himself.[/quote]
Which in turn, is very different from anything anyone has argued for in this thread, afaict. I certainly have not. He only has to fight the redcloaks and Meryn Trant (which is a big enough task), not annihilate the entire garrison of the Red Keep. I'm pretty sure no suggested [i]that[/i].

A water dancer would shame himself if he broke and ran during a duel, possibly even if he yielded. He wouldn't shame himself if he killed his immediate adversary, but not the entire population of Braavos. Meryn Trant was Syrio's immediate adversary.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1581754' date='Nov 7 2008, 17.50']Meryn Trant is still alive. I don't see it as a weird interpretion to say that Syrio coming away from that fight against a better armed and armoured foe who had just ordered Syrio's death would entail "running". What plausible series of events would allow them both to live, but Syrio not having backed down?[/quote]
Either Trant is incapacitated, as some of the Lannister guards already are, or it is Trant who leaves the battle. Both are possible outcomes that leaves both Syrio and Trant alive AND Syrio not running from Trant.

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1581754' date='Nov 7 2008, 17.50']Which in turn, is very different from anything anyone has argued for in this thread, afaict. I certainly have not. He only has to fight the redcloaks and Meryn Trant (which is a big enough task), not annihilate the entire garrison of the Red Keep. I'm pretty sure no suggested [i]that[/i].[/quote]

I tried to make it clear I did not think you did, but when the phrase "the First Sword of Braavos does not run" becomes an absolute ruling out any other outcome than Syrio's death the implication is clear. It means Syrio must fight his way out, not only against Trant and the already incapacitated Lannister guards who accompanied him, but against any who might get in his way. It is a ridiculous interpretation of Syrio's words, in my opinion.


[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1581754' date='Nov 7 2008, 17.50']A water dancer would shame himself if he broke and ran during a duel, possibly even if he yielded. He wouldn't shame himself if he killed his immediate adversary, but not the entire population of Braavos. Meryn Trant was Syrio's immediate adversary.[/quote]

I don't disagree. I don't think Syrio yielded or ran away in this sense. It would be highly out of character.

[Jon Targaryen]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1581754' date='Nov 7 2008, 14.50']Which in turn, is very different from anything anyone has argued for in this thread, afaict. I certainly have not. He only has to fight the redcloaks and Meryn Trant (which is a big enough task), not annihilate the entire garrison of the Red Keep. I'm pretty sure no suggested [i]that[/i].[/quote]
Seconded. I wasn't suggesting Syrio would try to save the day for the Starks if he were to survive Trant.


Not that he couldn't easily do that, of course, him being such an uber-kung-fu-ninja-bravo. :P

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1581865' date='Nov 7 2008, 18.55']Either Trant is incapacitated, as some of the Lannister guards already are, or it is Trant who leaves the battle. Both are possible outcomes that leaves both Syrio and Trant alive AND Syrio not running from Trant.[/quote]
We have no indication that Trant has been incapacitated anything like the redcloaks, or even at all. No gouged out eye, sword hacked halfway through his shoulder, broken fingers, shattered kneecaps, or impaled adam's apples are mentioned (Arya interprets their wounds as lethal), and the textual evidence of Trant's armour indicates that he is proof against those wounds from Syrio. So how would Trant have been incapacitated? And why would he leave suddenly in the middle of his furious attack on Syrio?


[quote]I tried to make it clear I did not think you did, but when the phrase "the First Sword of Braavos does not run" becomes an absolute ruling out any other outcome than Syrio's death the implication is clear.[/quote] It's not the only possible outcome. Not knowing Trant's fate, there would be the alternative that Syrio killed Trant and Syrio lived. However we know that didn't happen; Trant is still alive.
[quote]It means Syrio must fight his way out, not only against Trant and the already incapacitated Lannister guards who accompanied him, but against any who might get in his way. It is a ridiculous interpretation of Syrio's words, in my opinion.[/quote]
Supposing he triumphed over Trant, why does he have to fight anyone else after leaving the Small Hall? He could just quietly go home or cooperate with whatever guardsmen detain him at the gates, who wouldn't know that he killed anyone since there are no survivors to tell of it. I interpret his declaration that he will not run to mean that he will not flee from a foe who has openly challenged or attacked him. And if that's how he behaved, he would almost certainly be dead as a consequence, between his own poor odds against Trant, and Trant's known survival.

[quote]I don't disagree. I don't think Syrio yielded or ran away in this sense. It would be highly out of character.[/quote]
Now if only we can get the rest to see it that way!

[The_BlauerDragon]

I can almost feel the flames beginning to rise even before I say this... I know I'm about to get roasted, but... as awesome as Syrio was, and as much as I enjoyed the scene with him taking down the guardsmen with a stick... I am glad that Syrio did not survive that fight.

I am thankful that GRRM does not exempt any of his characters from death... I am glad that there is very little Deus in the machina (as it were). It makes a story more worldly, more tangible, and more beleivable when even the greatest of swordsmen cannot survive a few clumsy oafs if he is caught with only a practice sword, and one of them is armored and ready... It's great that one of the world's very best, and very craftiest, fighters can all but win a duel (have his opponent pinned down, AND poisoned) and then get himself killed because he lost his focus and let his emotion get the better of him... It is even great that the boy we all wanted to emerge victorious can win for himself a kingdom on the battlefield and then lose it all because he foolishly lingered in a girl's arms... That is a large part of what makes the series such a great read... You can never assume that your favorite character is going to get out of anything alive.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1581919' date='Nov 7 2008, 19.51']We have no indication that Trant has been incapacitated anything like the redcloaks, or even at all. No gouged out eye, sword hacked halfway through his shoulder, broken fingers, shattered kneecaps, or impaled adam's apples are mentioned (Arya interprets their wounds as lethal), and the textual evidence of Trant's armour indicates that he is proof against those wounds from Syrio. So how would Trant have been incapacitated? And why would he leave suddenly in the middle of his furious attack on Syrio?[/quote]
First, we don't know that Trant wasn't hurt in this fight. If I remember correctly, the first we know much about the fight after it takes place is in Cersei's discription to Tyrion of how Arya got away, and that seemingly takes place many weeks after the event. Second, Trant's armor seems impervious to Syrio's wooden sword. It isn't proof against the various weapons Syrio has just separated five Lannister guards from. Assuming he obtains one of these weapons, he has as much chance, or more, of doing harm to Trant as the Red Viper had against Ser Gregor, or Strong Belwas had against Oznak, or Bronn had against Ser Vardis. One doesn't have to invoke some comic book ninja status on Syrio to see that Martin believes it possible for an unarmored or lightly armored man to triumph over a heavily armored one. True, GRRM, goes out of his way to show that all the three examples are highly skilled combatants, but then he does the same with Syrio.

If that is the case, then we don't have Trant leaving while he is beating the living crap out of poor Syrio, but a combat that goes on after Arya's narrative ends in which Syrio gains a weapon and gains the upper hand because he, like the previous examples, has greater skill than his opponent. What, O, what is so hard to believe about that?

Do we have evidence that this took place? No, but then the only evidence that we have Syrio is dead is the assumption that because Trant is alive, Syrio must be dead. While it maybe true, it sure as hell ain't direct evidence of Syrio's fate.

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1581919' date='Nov 7 2008, 19.51']It's not the only possible outcome. Not knowing Trant's fate, there would be the alternative that Syrio killed Trant and Syrio lived. However we know that didn't happen; Trant is still alive.[/quote]
Why are the deaths of one or the other of the combatants the only outcomes you seem to see as possible? Pardon me, but I honestly don't understand why we have to choose between only these two options?

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1581919' date='Nov 7 2008, 19.51']Supposing he triumphed over Trant, why does he have to fight anyone else after leaving the Small Hall?[/quote]
My point exactly. He doesn't. If he lives through his encounter with Trant it is just possible he survives to escape King's Landing.

Now, having said all of that, I would like to reiterate something I alluded to in my first post - I really don't care if Syrio is alive or dead. It is quite fine with me if Martin wants to leave it like it is and we all assume Syrio died a heroic death defending Arya. It is also quite ok with me, and I think well within the realm of the possible, that if GRRM wants to use Syrio to advance the story in Braavos that we haven't seen the last of him yet. Now, if I could just get Mr. Martin to ask for my advice ... ;)

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1582015' date='Nov 8 2008, 03.11']If that is the case, then we don't have Trant leaving while he is beating the living crap out of poor Syrio, but a combat that goes on after Arya's narrative ends in which Syrio gains a weapon and gains the upper hand because he, like the previous examples, has greater skill than his opponent. What, O, what is so hard to believe about that?[/quote]What's so hard to believe, as it has been repeated, is:
[list]
[*]That Syrio has the time to pick up a sword without Trant slashing him in half. No matter how quick the guy is, the swords are on the ground, probably still clutched by the dead hands of some guards, and Trant is not stopping his attack.
[*]That his skill can be used with the guards' swords. Fighting with a rapier is totally different from fighting with a longsword, even the muscles used are different, and trying to adapt a style based on stabbing to a sword made for heavy slashes is a bit of a hard task. Especially when you consider the instances we are told, in the serie, that merely using another sword than your own diminishes your efficiency, in the Vardis Egen versus Bronn fight for example.
[*]That even armed he has a chance against the fully armoured Trant, when he has nothing to protect himself. Especially when it is shown that he is not fast enough to dodge every blow: he had to try to parry some of Trant's blows with a wooden stick.
[*]That even if he somehow gained the upper hand, he'd be able to be on his merry way while leaving Trant unharmed behind. Considering how he killed the five guards, I find this to be the most ridiculous assertion of the argument: if he had gained the upper hand, he would have killed Trant, like he did for the the others. If not, Trant would have come after him shouting for bowmen or something, not mentioning that for Arya it would be better to have Trant dead, it would slow any action to find an escapee, confuse them about what to look for, a child alone, or one guarded by a group of men, or a treason among their ranks, plus it would have allowed him to find Arya and help her further.
[/list]


[quote]Why are the deaths of one or the other of the combatants the only outcomes you seem to see as possible? Pardon me, but I honestly don't understand why we have to choose between only these two options?[/quote]Because they are the only options left. Trant wants to kill the guy, Trant will not run, Syrio wants to occupy Trant the longest time possible, and he will not run either, and there is not a possibility for Syrio to beat Trant when we see Trant unharmed and alive talk to Cersei later on. Saying that we don't see if Trant is really unharmed I feel is a bit dishonest: any injury severe enough to stop the guy would be also severe enough to be noticed, and to have to be tended.
It would also impact the search for Arya: somehow, they are not looking for a braavosi swordsmaster and a little girl, even when the Braavosi would be the most noticeable of the two, like they would unless they captured the guy later on, in which case he dead by torture to tell them where Arya is.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582168' date='Nov 8 2008, 02.59']What's so hard to believe, as it has been repeated, is:
[list]
[*]That Syrio has the time to pick up a sword without Trant slashing him in half. No matter how quick the guy is, the swords are on the ground, probably still clutched by the dead hands of some guards, and Trant is not stopping his attack.
[*]That his skill can be used with the guards' swords. Fighting with a rapier is totally different from fighting with a longsword, even the muscles used are different, and trying to adapt a style based on stabbing to a sword made for heavy slashes is a bit of a hard task. Especially when you consider the instances we are told, in the serie, that merely using another sword than your own diminishes your efficiency, in the Vardis Egen versus Bronn fight for example.
[*]That even armed he has a chance against the fully armoured Trant, when he has nothing to protect himself. Especially when it is shown that he is not fast enough to dodge every blow: he had to try to parry some of Trant's blows with a wooden stick.
[*]That even if he somehow gained the upper hand, he'd be able to be on his merry way while leaving Trant unharmed behind. Considering how he killed the five guards, I find this to be the most ridiculous assertion of the argument: if he had gained the upper hand, he would have killed Trant, like he did for the the others. If not, Trant would have come after him shouting for bowmen or something, not mentioning that for Arya it would be better to have Trant dead, it would slow any action to find an escapee, confuse them about what to look for, a child alone, or one guarded by a group of men, or a treason among their ranks, plus it would have allowed him to find Arya and help her further.
[/list]

Because they are the only options left. Trant wants to kill the guy, Trant will not run, Syrio wants to occupy Trant the longest time possible, and he will not run either, and there is not a possibility for Syrio to beat Trant when we see Trant unharmed and alive talk to Cersei later on. Saying that we don't see if Trant is really unharmed I feel is a bit dishonest: any injury severe enough to stop the guy would be also severe enough to be noticed, and to have to be tended.
It would also impact the search for Arya: somehow, they are not looking for a braavosi swordsmaster and a little girl, even when the Braavosi would be the most noticeable of the two, like they would unless they captured the guy later on, in which case he dead by torture to tell them where Arya is.[/quote]

Let me respond to all of the above as best I can. Getting out of the way of a heavily armored foe on foot while one is not encumbered is not [i]that[/i] difficult of a task - we see it done by many in the series. There is a reason we don't see infantry in full plate armor and it's not just cost or the prestige of riding a horse. One doesn't move as fast as people without the armor. Getting to one of the many weapons strewn about the room, may or may not be a difficult task depending on where the weapons are - we don't have that information, so a judgement isn't really possible on how difficult it is. The idea the First Sword of Braavos is only skilled with one particular weapon is a bit far fetched for me. He is a master of at least one style of fighting, but that doesn't mean he is incompetent with something other than his favored weapon. Again we have numerous examples of unarmored or lightly armored combatants beating heavily armored ones, so it is clear Martin seems to think it is possible for such a thing to happen. As I said we don't know that he left Trant behind "unharmed" - we have the fact Trant was present when Ser Barristan is dismissed and nothing to judge his condition on either in that encounter or through Cersei's description of the battle many weeks later. Trant could well have been harmed or he could have simply turned and fled when Syrio looked to have gained the advantage in the encounter. There is nothing other than Trant's presence later on to support any theory about what happened. What Syrio would have done under the many scenarios if Trant had fled or was incapacitated is also open to too many interpretations. There is just not enough information here to make a judgement on the many what ifs that could have taken place if Syrio beats Trant, much less assert there is no way for Syrio to be alive. So, no, those aren't the only options left. I hope I haven't left anything out.

I understand the reaction to the many fans who just want Syrio to be alive because he's "cool." Martin kills people off, and to continually look for the return of someone who may well be dead, just because one likes the character, is a bit annoying, but the categorical statements about how Syrio must be dead also seem to be more than a bit overboard. Syrio will be alive if Martin needs him. Just as it turned out he needed Catelyn when it seemed, with much greater direct evidence, that she was dead.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1582180' date='Nov 8 2008, 10.02']Let me respond to all of the above as best I can. Getting out of the way of a heavily armored foe on foot while one is not encumbered is not [i]that[/i] difficult of a task - we see it done by many in the series.[/quote]I cannot think of a single instance of that, can you give an example? Anyway, once again, we don't see it in this fight. Does Syrio effortlessly get away from Trant's attacks? No, he even needs to use a wooden stick to deflect a steel sword's cut, getting it severed in the process.

Also, there is a significant distinction between getting away completely, and staying in the same room within reach of someone trying to kill you, bending over to pick up something, and managing to get back in position before getting killed. I could buy some sort of direct escape, not picking up stuff and fighting back.


[quote]The idea the First Sword of Braavos is only skilled with one particular weapon is a bit far fetched for me. He is a master of at least one style of fighting, but that doesn't mean he is incompetent with something other than his favored weapon.[/quote]Not necessarily, though I think both styles are somewhat antithetical, but it does mean that he is way less proficient, so in any case, Syrio is not a master anymore when not using bravo swords. Well, unless you do argue that he is some kind of superman (it seems to be what is usually implied by the Syrio=invincible crowd), it would be like arguing a karate master can become a judo master, because, hey, he is a master and they are both martial arts.


[quote]Again we have numerous examples of unarmored or lightly armored combatants beating heavily armored ones, so it is clear Martin seems to think it is possible for such a thing to happen.[/quote]Many? How many? How many fighting barehanded and then with a weapon not suited to their style? How many winning with their opponent still able to move talk and do everything as if he was unharmed afterwards?

Like GRRM said, anyone can be beaten any given sunday, depending on circumstances, and as Brienne points, a dagger beats a rock almost everytime, and so will a sword beat bare hands.

[quote]As I said we don't know that he left Trant behind "unharmed" - we have the fact Trant was present when Ser Barristan is dismissed and nothing to judge his condition on either in that encounter or through Cersei's description of the battle many weeks later. Trant could well have been harmed or he could have simply turned and fled when Syrio looked to have gained the advantage in the encounter. There is nothing other than Trant's presence later on to support any theory about what happened.[/quote]That's enough to say, like I did earlier, that any injury Trant would have likely received was not severe enough to stop a fight. As for Trant fleeing without receiving any serious injury, I find that preposterous, against an unarmoured foe, for one in full armour to be backing down. Why would he, he's perfectly protected, and just needs to land one blow, the guy has fought people more used to westerosi type of swords and clad in full armour before. Yes he could have done so, just like Syrio could have happened to be a sorcerer and freeze him in time, but that stretching credibility.

[quote]What Syrio would have done under the many scenarios if Trant had fled or was incapacitated is also open to too many interpretations.[/quote]But Trant can't have been incapacited, unless he's also called wolverine. You do not get up from incapaciting blows dealt with a sharp weapon like if it was nothing.

[quote]There is just not enough information here to make a judgement on the many what ifs that could have taken place if Syrio beats Trant, much less assert there is no way for Syrio to be alive.[/quote]Oh, yes, just that there is no way to have him credibly stay alive under the circumstances. That's a common argument but because we don't know what happened doesn't mean that anything could have happened, there is a consistency to the story after all. Syrio killed the guards, but he wouldn't kill Trant? Trant would miraculously escape death but show nothing afterwards? Trant would flee but not call for help, bowmen, or other guards? That doesn't fit.

[quote]Syrio will be alive if Martin needs him. Just as it turned out he needed Catelyn when it seemed, with much greater direct evidence, that she was dead.[/quote]Err, she [i]is[/i] dead and she did die. We are not arguing that a dead man cannot come back, we are arguing about his death. If you want to argue that Syrio's corpse will be used by Qyburn, or raised by Thoros or something like that, that is another debate altogether.

If you wanted an example of an apparent death being faked, you could have used Sandor, but then I would have argued about circumstances and swordfights being way less protracted than infection and fever, and outside help.




Ultimately, maybe each of your objection could make sense, when stretching credibility a bit at times, but to have all of them happen goes too far into the realm of improbability and complexity compared to the simple answer that Syrio just didn't win.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']I cannot think of a single instance of that, can you give an example? Anyway, once again, we don't see it in this fight. Does Syrio effortlessly get away from Trant's attacks? No, he even needs to use a wooden stick to deflect a steel sword's cut, getting it severed in the process.[/quote] I have already given three examples of this. In Oberyn's fight against Ser Gregor, in Strong Belwas' fight against Oznak, and in Bronn's fight against Ser Vardis, we have unarmored or lightly armored characters using their mobility advantage to get out of the way from heavily armored opponents. Why is this impossible to consider with Syrio? He has certainly used his speed and mobility to close with 5 different Lannister guards, so are we to decide now he cannot use the same skills in avoiding any of Trant's blows?

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']Also, there is a significant distinction between getting away completely, and staying in the same room within reach of someone trying to kill you, bending over to pick up something, and managing to get back in position before getting killed. I could buy some sort of direct escape, not picking up stuff and fighting back.[/quote] I agree there is. The problem being we don't have enough information to judge just how difficult a task this is. If we know the size of the room and the location the weapons, then, perhaps, we could make a sound judgement whether this is too difficult for anyone to do. We don't have that information and stating it is not possible to do without it makes no sense.

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']Not necessarily, though I think both styles are somewhat antithetical, but it does mean that he is way less proficient, so in any case, Syrio is not a master anymore when not using bravo swords. Well, unless you do argue that he is some kind of superman (it seems to be what is usually implied by the Syrio=invincible crowd), it would be like arguing a karate master can become a judo master, because, hey, he is a master and they are both martial arts.[/quote] I've not advanced any Syrio as "superman" arguments. I've compared him to other characters in this series, and I've compared the tasks he would have to accomplish to things we know those others have accomplish. I also haven't said being First Sword of Braavos makes him the master of all styles of martial arts. I have only pointed out that being highly skilled with one fighting style doesn't mean one is unskilled, or incompetent, with other styles or the use of other weapons. I just don't know enough about how effectively Syrio could fight with one of the weapons on hand or know enough about how Syrio's skills with those weapons stack up vs. Trant. To assume one knows those things without any evidence is to force an unsupported conclusion. You could well be right, but it is not a stretch to say Syrio may also have the weapon's skills advantage over Trant - even with only the weapons available.


[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']Many? How many? How many fighting barehanded and then with a weapon not suited to their style? How many winning with their opponent still able to move talk and do everything as if he was unharmed afterwards?

Like GRRM said, anyone can be beaten any given sunday, depending on circumstances, and as Brienne points, a dagger beats a rock almost everytime, and so will a sword beat bare hands.[/quote]
I have not said the three examples I've given are identical to Syrio's situation, that would be foolish. What I have pointed out is the fact Trant is heavily armored and Syrio is not, in no way means Martin has reached the same conclusion that many have in this thread that Syrio must be dead because of this disadvantage. We KNOW that Martin has given us examples of fights in which the outcome has favored those with mobility advantages over armor. Why then should we automatically decide that, in this case, Trant's armor means Syrio is dead? It makes no sense. And btw, I'm not suggesting Syrio's advantage in mobility means he is alive.

I agree a sword beats bare hands almost every time. That's why I've always given as an assumption that for Syrio to have much of any chance to survive this fight he must acquire one of the weapons of his downed foes. Short of divine intervention, or skills we have no reason to think Syrio possesses, then he needs to get a new weapon to have any real chance of beating Trant.

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']That's enough to say, like I did earlier, that any injury Trant would have likely received was not severe enough to stop a fight. As for Trant fleeing without receiving any serious injury, I find that preposterous, against an unarmoured foe, for one in full armour to be backing down. Why would he, he's perfectly protected, and just needs to land one blow, the guy has fought people more used to westerosi type of swords and clad in full armour before. Yes he could have done so, just like Syrio could have happened to be a sorcerer and freeze him in time, but that stretching credibility.

But Trant can't have been incapacited, unless he's also called wolverine. You do not get up from incapaciting blows dealt with a sharp weapon like if it was nothing.[/quote] I include both quotes because I want to point out that I have made it clear I do not think Syrio is any kind of comic book super hero or super ninja, magic or otherwise. So, bringing this up is only useful in belittling my arguments, something I haven't done with you.

Now, our evidence that Trant was not seriously hurt is what? That he is mentioned without any physical description of injury (or any description for that matter) in the chapter in which Sansa pleads for Ned's life? Or that when Cersei describes what happened to Tyrion she doesn't mention any injury to Trant. I'd point out that you place the first event a month after the fight with Syrio and the second almost three months later. Contrast that to the amount of time you give between when Tyrion recovers from what we know to be ghastly injuries at the Battle of the Blackwater, in which you have him up one month later. It doesn't take a lot to imagine wounds to Trant that would be serious, but would not be evidenced by a casual observer one month after they happened. In short, I don't think we can say whether Trant was injured or not in his fight with Syrio. Nor do I think we have enough evidence concerning Trant's character to say he wouldn't run if the fight looked to be going badly for him. Under such conditions, would Syrio's response have to be to track Trant down and kill him or would it be to go after Arya once he forced his foe from the field? I don't think we know.

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']Oh, yes, just that there is no way to have him credibly stay alive under the circumstances. That's a common argument but because we don't know what happened doesn't mean that anything could have happened, there is a consistency to the story after all. Syrio killed the guards, but he wouldn't kill Trant? Trant would miraculously escape death but show nothing afterwards? Trant would flee but not call for help, bowmen, or other guards? That doesn't fit.[/quote] I think I've shown there [i]is[/i] a credible way Syrio could have stayed alive, doesn't mean it happened, but assuming he gets hold of a weapon he is as capable of winning, or more so, in a fight against Trant compared to the other three examples I've given of a heavily armored man losing to lightly armored or unarmored opponents. So, if we want to talk of "consistency," then Martin would not be inconsistent at all if he gave us another example of someone, Syrio in this case, accomplishing the same thing. As to whether Syrio would have gone after a fleeing Trant or killed an incapacitated Trant instead of going after Arya, as I said above I don't think we can decide what he would do without much more information about the situation prevailing at the time. I think I've already answered the question of possible injuries to Trant above.

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']Err, she [i]is[/i] dead and she did die. We are not arguing that a dead man cannot come back, we are arguing about his death. If you want to argue that Syrio's corpse will be used by Qyburn, or raised by Thoros or something like that, that is another debate altogether.

If you wanted an example of an apparent death being faked, you could have used Sandor, but then I would have argued about circumstances and swordfights being way less protracted than infection and fever, and outside help.[/quote] My reference to Catelyn was only to show that characters have been brought back who we last see in much worse circumstances that Syrio. I'm glad to say I don't think Martin has done so in a cavalier way. Catelyn was needed as sort of Stark spirit of vengence, a Westerosi version of the furies if you will. I don't see Syrio in the same light at all, but I could see him as useful in the future Arya's storyline. Without that, I too, think Martin leaves him out of any further part of the series. In fact, my initial reaction to Syrio's last scene is to compare it to Frank Herbert's character Duncan Idaho who is left in a similar, but even more dire, situation in [i]Dune[/i]. My hope was that we don't have a replay of how that turned out, and I don't think we will. I'd much rather either Syrio is dead or he got away after defeating Trant. Another resurrection would be horrible, imho.

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1582197' date='Nov 8 2008, 06.13']Ultimately, maybe each of your objection could make sense, when stretching credibility a bit at times, but to have all of them happen goes too far into the realm of improbability and complexity compared to the simple answer that Syrio just didn't win.[/quote] I make some very simple assumptions, (a) Syrio must be able to rearm himself, (b) Syrio must be able to use his mobility advantage to win a battle with the heavily armored Trant, and © that if Syrio does win such a battle he doesn't have to fight everyone in the Red Keep to survive. Each is an assumption that, while maybe isn't the most likely outcome in each case, doesn't stretch a reader's credulity to the breaking point.

[cybroleach]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1582180' date='Nov 8 2008, 04.02']Let me respond to all of the above as best I can. Getting out of the way of a heavily armored foe on foot while one is not encumbered is not [i]that[/i] difficult of a task - we see it done by many in the series. There is a reason we don't see infantry in full plate armor and it's not just cost or the prestige of riding a horse. One doesn't move as fast as people without the armor. Getting to one of the many weapons strewn about the room, may or may not be a difficult task depending on where the weapons are - we don't have that information, so a judgement isn't really possible on how difficult it is. The idea the First Sword of Braavos is only skilled with one particular weapon is a bit far fetched for me. He is a master of at least one style of fighting, but that doesn't mean he is incompetent with something other than his favored weapon. Again we have numerous examples of unarmored or lightly armored combatants beating heavily armored ones, so it is clear Martin seems to think it is possible for such a thing to happen. As I said we don't know that he left Trant behind "unharmed" - we have the fact Trant was present when Ser Barristan is dismissed and nothing to judge his condition on either in that encounter or through Cersei's description of the battle many weeks later. Trant could well have been harmed or he could have simply turned and fled when Syrio looked to have gained the advantage in the encounter. There is nothing other than Trant's presence later on to support any theory about what happened. What Syrio would have done under the many scenarios if Trant had fled or was incapacitated is also open to too many interpretations. There is just not enough information here to make a judgement on the many what ifs that could have taken place if Syrio beats Trant, much less assert there is no way for Syrio to be alive. So, no, those aren't the only options left. I hope I haven't left anything out.[/quote]

See this always ends the debate as far as I've been concerned could Syrio get a sword? possibly. As i mentioned eariler given that he has a personal disdane for the weapon in question whould indicate he not very skilled in it. Did either of them not plan on fighting? No, so nobody ran away here ppl. Could unarmoured unskilled Syrio best armour skilled Trant? again possibly. Could he do it in such a way that Trant isn't severly injured or dead? no. Which gives us if Trant lives Syrio died. Seeing Trant alive and healthy confirms that Syrio died.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Personally, I am more and more inclined to add this theory to the list... [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=19282"]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=19282[/url]

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1582409' date='Nov 8 2008, 19.48']I have already given three examples of this. In Oberyn's fight against Ser Gregor, in Strong Belwas' fight against Oznak, and in Bronn's fight against Ser Vardis, we have unarmored or lightly armored characters using their mobility advantage to get out of the way from heavily armored opponents. Why is this impossible to consider with Syrio? He has certainly used his speed and mobility to close with 5 different Lannister guards, so are we to decide now he cannot use the same skills in avoiding any of Trant's blows?[/quote]Because you are not arguing about avoiding Trant's blows, Syrio does that already, you are arguing about taking it a notch higher and having the character avoid the blows, pick up something and fight back all that faster than his competent opponent could move and while being unarmed and unarmoured, which the characters you cite as examples are certainly not.

Let me give remind you that when Oberyn Martell lost the advantage given to him by his weapon (his reach), weapon that Syrio doesn't have, he [i]died[/i], that Bronn did not win easily, did use his own sword and buckler while his opponent had not his own sword or that he could not have relaxed a second to redo his laces, and that Belwas fighting that clown off Yunkai was using his weapon of choice, that his opponent was on horse when Belwas was dodging the blows, that he was lightly armoured too, and that no, once the real fight started, Belwas could not ask for a time out to fetch a sword:
[i]Oznak leapt clear of his horse and managed to draw his sword before Strong Belwas was on him. Steel sang against steel, [b]too fast and furious for Dany to follow the blows[/b]. It could not have been a dozen heartbeats before Belwas's chest was awash in blood from a slice below his breasts, and Oznak zo Pahl had an arakh planted right between his ram's horns.[/i]

[quote]I agree there is. The problem being we don't have enough information to judge just how difficult a task this is. If we know the size of the room and the location the weapons, then, perhaps, we could make a sound judgement whether this is too difficult for anyone to do. We don't have that information and stating it is not possible to do without it makes no sense.[/quote]But we have the location of the weapons, Syrio blasts through the guards in the blink of an eye, they were all in reach of a single man, and no matter how big the room is, Trant won't let Syrio run about without following. We know that it takes time to pick up a sword, we know it takes effort to dodge away from someone not on horse when you don't have a weapon yourself, and we know that for all his so called lightning fast movement, Syrio is not so fast as to be able to not get his stick severed by being forced to parry with it. We have enough information to judge.

[quote]I've not advanced any Syrio as "superman" arguments. I've compared him to other characters in this series, and I've compared the tasks he would have to accomplish to things we know those others have accomplish. I also haven't said being First Sword of Braavos makes him the master of all styles of martial arts. I have only pointed out that being highly skilled with one fighting style doesn't mean one is unskilled, or incompetent, with other styles or the use of other weapons. I just don't know enough about how effectively Syrio could fight with one of the weapons on hand or know enough about how Syrio's skills with those weapons stack up vs. Trant. To assume one knows those things without any evidence is to force an unsupported conclusion. You could well be right, but it is not a stretch to say Syrio may also have the weapon's skills advantage over Trant - even with only the weapons available.[/quote]It is a stretch. You are not saying that Syrio is competent, you are saying that he is a master at a style that isn't his own, with an unfamiliar weapon, and without the outfit that goes with the style (the armour, that is). You could as well pitch an argument that Gregor Clegane is skilled in Braavosi fencing, or that Jaime, by merits of being an awesome fighter, has necessarily the knowledge, reflexes and muscles to be a master dueler with his left hand if he ever found a fencing sword.

We don't know if pigs can fly either in Westeros, but consistency would point that they actually don't. Please stop using that argument that we don't know so it could happen: it could but both possibilities are not equal in term of probability, so let's concentrate on what we think make these probabilities change, it's a bit insulting of you to repeat that we don't know everything so anything could happen, I already know that, we all do, it's a work of fiction.


[quote]Why then should we automatically decide that, in this case, Trant's armor means Syrio is dead? It makes no sense. And btw, I'm not suggesting Syrio's advantage in mobility means he is alive.[/quote]Because none of these characters were unarmed, that they didn't necessarily win, and that when that kind of fight ended, one of the fighters was dead. Who do we know is not dead for sure between Syrio and Trant?

[quote]In short, I don't think we can say whether Trant was injured or not in his fight with Syrio. Nor do I think we have enough evidence concerning Trant's character to say he wouldn't run if the fight looked to be going badly for him. Under such conditions, would Syrio's response have to be to track Trant down and kill him or would it be to go after Arya once he forced his foe from the field? I don't think we know.[/quote]Ah, this is a major contention point, I didn't mean to seem to belittle your argument earlier as yes, Trant could have healed somehow, it's just that we do know that Syrio outright killed the guards, and that to stop a guy in an armour with a sword, how can you do it, short of inflicting mortal or crippling blows? You cannot, all the accounts we have of fights like that end up with one guy dying, unless one is purposefully toying with his foe, or goes at it Dunk-style, with his mailed fists. Syrio has neither the stature nor the mailed fists of Dunk, therefore he would have needed to get in a mortal blow... which of course he cannot do as he is not a master of westerosi hacking and slashing and has not protection to speak of, and did not do anyway since Trant is left alive.

[quote]My reference to Catelyn was only to show that characters have been brought back who we last see in much worse circumstances that Syrio.[/quote]Which wasn't a point of contention, as noone argues that the dead cannot come back. Noone has be shown to actually [i]not[/i] die in circumstances as dire as Syrio, however. And yes, resurrecting him would be all kinds of pointless.



[quote]I make some very simple assumptions, (a) Syrio must be able to rearm himself, (b) Syrio must be able to use his mobility advantage to win a battle with the heavily armored Trant, and © that if Syrio does win such a battle he doesn't have to fight everyone in the Red Keep to survive. Each is an assumption that, while maybe isn't the most likely outcome in each case, doesn't stretch a reader's credulity to the breaking point.[/quote]
It's more:
[list=1]
[*]Syrio has to dodge every one of Trant's blows without any stick to parry, while he showed earlier that he needed that stick to defend himself, getting it severed. Unlikely, but ok.
[*]Syrio has to get enough breathing time and space to pick up a weapon on the ground and get in position. Unlikely again with a guy intent on killing him on his heels.
[*]Syrio has to be a master in a style that isn't his own, and win over an elite order knight that trained all his life in this style, with an unfamiliar heavy lump of steel, against all his reflexes (See Jaime talking about difference between knowledge and practice, with his left hand). Highly unlikely. (doing so would indeed make him a cheesy superman in my eyes, by the way, no offence intended)
[*]Syrio has to win while not dealing a crippling or lethal blow to his opponent. Extremely unlikely for one who is not a master with the weapon at hand.
[*]He has to leave the Red Keep... After leaving Trant [i]alive[/i]. How much sense does that do? Either he kills him so the guy cannot rat on him, or he flees while Trant is still in shape and he gets a pursuing squad of bowmen being him. The gates are closed, he doesn't know of Arya's secret passage, and all Stark retainers are hunted, even Septa Mordane.
[/list]

That's stacking improbability quite high for me, I guess mileages really do vary.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1582488' date='Nov 8 2008, 16.31']See this always ends the debate as far as I've been concerned could Syrio get a sword? possibly. As i mentioned eariler given that he has a personal disdane for the weapon in question whould indicate he not very skilled in it. Did either of them not plan on fighting? No, so nobody ran away here ppl. Could unarmoured unskilled Syrio best armour skilled Trant? again possibly. Could he do it in such a way that Trant isn't severly injured or dead? no. Which gives us if Trant lives Syrio died. Seeing Trant alive and healthy confirms that Syrio died.[/quote]

If EB's timeline is correct, there is every reason to believe that a wound incurred by Trant in his fight with Syrio need not necessarily stop him from being at the ceremony where Ser Barristan is stripped of his membership in the Kingsguard, nor that any wound he received has to be readily apparent a month later to Sansa. As well we have nothing that shows Trant's character to be such that we can preclude him running away if his fight turns against him, and the fact he came armored neither confirms or denies his willingness to stand and fight to the death. All of which is to say that your surmise that "if Trant lives Syrio died" is not a conclusion that is born out by the facts. Syrio may well be dead. What we know of Trant's health doesn't prove it one way or the other.

[shapur]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1582614' date='Nov 9 2008, 00.49']If EB's timeline is correct, there is every reason to believe that a wound incurred by Trant in his fight with Syrio need not necessarily stop him from being at the ceremony where Ser Barristan is stripped of his membership in the Kingsguard, nor that any wound he received has to be readily apparent a month later to Sansa. As well we have nothing that shows Trant's character to be such that we can preclude him running away if his fight turns against him, and the fact he came armored neither confirms or denies his willingness to stand and fight to the death. All of which is to say that your surmise that "if Trant lives Syrio died" is not a conclusion that is born out by the facts. Syrio may well be dead. What we know of Trant's health doesn't prove it one way or the other.[/quote]

Well, I won't argue about Syrio being dead or alive. What I can say, however, is that because I've been interested in medieval and renaissance swordplay a long time before I first read ASoIaF, I did a small research in the medieval martial arts. Based mainly on the online versons of various fighting manuals of ARMA, and on some other military history books, it is most probably that an at least good fighter would have been familiar with more than one weapon. While this is logical, he cannot be as proficient with all of them as with his favored type, but that also doesn't mean that he becomes suddenly incapable to fight an average swordsman. Besides, his style of fighting being dependent on agility and speed, it is more likely that he would be able to dodge Trant's blows. Even though he is unarmed, that doesn't mean anything by itself. In ASoS, the Red Viper dodged the sword of the Mountain till he rearmed himself. While this isn't as easy in a room, as it might be in the open, still, it's possible. Plus, the room was probably large enough, as it was Arya's raining ground, which would require some free space, nonetheless. So, Syrio is probably dead, but he also had a lot of chences to survive. More than that, he is described at the fight with the Lannister guards as moving with incredible speed. Of course, as to what happened next, if he indeed survived the fight, well, to be honest, I believe that only GRRM could tell. :rolleyes:

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1582409' date='Nov 8 2008, 13.48']I have already given three examples of this. In Oberyn's fight against Ser Gregor, in Strong Belwas' fight against Oznak, and in Bronn's fight against Ser Vardis, we have unarmored or lightly armored characters using their mobility advantage to get out of the way from heavily armored opponents. Why is this impossible to consider with Syrio? He has certainly used his speed and mobility to close with 5 different Lannister guards, so are we to decide now he cannot use the same skills in avoiding any of Trant's blows?[/quote]It's impossible against Syrio because every single one of those examples was better armed and armoured than Syrio. They had the ability to deflect hits from their enemies' weapons, Bronn and Belwas with their steel swords, and all three with their [i]shields[/i]. Yes, even Belwas, the least armoured of them had a buckler. Syrio deflected one stroke with his wooden sword, and the next one cut it in half. After that he has [i]nothing[/i]. If he gets hit, he's dead. Oberyn had the reach advantage, as Mormont has pointed out several times, which he used to deliver his final strike.

Belwas' foe wasn't armoured very well, worse than Oberyn, even. Same copper scales, but [i]no helmet[/i]. How did Belwas kill him? Split his skull with an arakh. Not a very impressive armor advantage there.

How did both Bronn (and later against Balman, for that matter) do it? By immobilising his foes. You can't dodge anything when you're trapped beneath a statue or a horse. He was able to take his sweet time and aim carefully to get through the gaps in the armor, because his adversaries were pinned to the ground. How would Syrio manage any such thing? He'd basically need the same advantage to hit such a difficult target, given his own massive disadvantages. But there's no evidence of horses or statues in the Small hall that he could have pushed over on top of Meryn. And if there was, if he somehow managed to gain the upper hand...why isn't Trant dead? Syrio had no qualms about slaughtering the five guards who tried to arrest his charge and kill him, why wouldn't he finish off Trant if he could? Indeed, any injury he could do that would make it past that armour is quite likely to be lethal. Dunk stabbed the Longinch through the armour gap at his armpit, and the Longinch [i]died.[/i]

[quote]I agree there is. The problem being we don't have enough information to judge just how difficult a task this is. If we know the size of the room and the location the weapons, then, perhaps, we could make a sound judgement whether this is too difficult for anyone to do. We don't have that information and stating it is not possible to do without it makes no sense.[/quote]
It's a matter of one improbability after another, compounding their effects that adds up to Syrio having microscopic chances of survival. And if he did succeed through sheer miracles...and his reservoir of miracles must have been just about empty after he killed five men with a wooden stick....he would have killed Trant. There's simply no reason he wouldn't want to. Bravos kill each other over arguments about which courtesan is prettiest, for heaven's sake, so they'll surely deliver the deathstroke to someone who has just been actively trying to kill them.
[quote]I have only pointed out that being highly skilled with one fighting style doesn't mean one is unskilled, or incompetent, with other styles or the use of other weapons. I just don't know enough about how effectively Syrio could fight with one of the weapons on hand or know enough about how Syrio's skills with those weapons stack up vs. Trant. To assume one knows those things without any evidence is to force an unsupported conclusion.[/quote] It's not unsupported at all, it's multiple different improbabilities stacked on top of each other; that Syrio would be able to pick a sword up without Trant hitting him, that Syrio would be able to use a heavy sword adequately, that he would be capable of avoiding being hit even once despite the fact that he already was unable to dodge Trant's blows, and that he would somehow manage to harm Trant through the very minor vulnerabilities of his armor with a slower weapon [i]at the same time as avoiding getting hit even once with Trant's sword[/i]. That is to say, even if he miraculously snatches a sword off the floor and rolls in time to avoid being decapitated, and then amazingly manages to poke that slow heavy sword through a gap in Trant's armor during the brief flashes when such a gap is exposed....[i]then[/i] that sword is unavailable to parry Trant's next swing that comes crashing down on him. Just one improbability after another. Really the comparison to Ned vs Ilyn Payne was closer than anything else. If we work hard enough we could come up with some wild scenario where Ned uses his manacles to smash some Gold Cloak's teeth in and then quickly yanks his sword away from him, and...well all sorts of crazy things would be necessary. Can we categorically declare such feat would be [i]impossible[/i]? If yes, then we can be pretty comfortable doing the same for naked Syrio and his broken stick against a knight armoured head to toe.

[quote]We KNOW that Martin has given us examples of fights in which the outcome has favored those with mobility advantages over armor. Why then should we automatically decide that, in this case, Trant's armor means Syrio is dead?[/quote] Because Syrio has none of the mitigating circumstances of those other examples. No shield, no means of pinning his opponent to the ground. What's in the Small Hall, some trestle tables? Not so easy to topple as a statue.



[quote]Now, our evidence that Trant was not seriously hurt is what?[/quote]
That he is not dead, which he would be if Syrio had him at his mercy. That he is not missing any limbs. That his eyes haven't been slashed out by a sword through the vision slit of his helm. That there is no mention of him being incapacitated for an extended period while healing from a cut artery or severed extremity, or anything sufficient to stop him. [quote]Contrast that to the amount of time you give between when Tyrion recovers from what we know to be ghastly injuries at the Battle of the Blackwater, in which you have him up one month later. It doesn't take a lot to imagine wounds to Trant that would be serious, but would not be evidenced by a casual observer one month after they happened.[/quote]
Trant isn't just anybody; he's one of only six Kingsguard in the capital, his being out of commission sounds pretty noteworthy to me.

[quote]I think I've shown there [i]is[/i] a credible way Syrio could have stayed alive, doesn't mean it happened, but assuming he gets hold of a weapon he is as capable of winning, or more so, in a fight against Trant compared to the other three examples I've given of a heavily armored man losing to lightly armored or unarmored opponents.[/quote] Oh good lord no. Syrio had none of their advantages; no shield, no reach advantage, no statue or horse to push over, no opponent who is conveniently [i]not wearing a helmet[/i]. And they already had their steel swords in hand at the start of the fight, they didn't have to go on a scavenger hunt to get one, while their enemy could attack at will.

[quote]I make some very simple assumptions, (a) Syrio must be able to rearm himself, (b) Syrio must be able to use his mobility advantage to win a battle with the heavily armored Trant, and © that if Syrio does win such a battle he doesn't have to fight everyone in the Red Keep to survive. Each is an assumption that, while maybe isn't the most likely outcome in each case, doesn't stretch a reader's credulity to the breaking point.[/quote]
In combination, they stretch this reader's credulity way past breaking point. And I still don't understand why you keep bringing up "everyone in the Red Keep", since you acknowledge that no one is claiming he would fight them. It's simply a matter of a bravo sticking an individual swordfight out until [i]the end[/i], not leaving the outcome unresolved for no apparent reason (if it was in the middle of a huge battle and they got pulled away from each, or there was a flood that swept them apart, fine. But those didn't happen here).

[cybroleach]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1582614' date='Nov 8 2008, 17.49']If EB's timeline is correct, there is every reason to believe that a wound incurred by Trant in his fight with Syrio need not necessarily stop him from being at the ceremony where Ser Barristan is stripped of his membership in the Kingsguard, nor that any wound he received has to be readily apparent a month later to Sansa. As well we have nothing that shows Trant's character to be such that we can preclude him running away if his fight turns against him, and the fact he came armored neither confirms or denies his willingness to stand and fight to the death. All of which is to say that your surmise that "if Trant lives Syrio died" is not a conclusion that is born out by the facts. Syrio may well be dead. What we know of Trant's health doesn't prove it one way or the other.[/quote]

Like OIL said there's nothing to these points we know Trant wasn't hurt because we don't see him hurt. Your making your point by sounding really vague and non descriptive.

What kind of miracle wound are you suggesting Trant suffers then heals from that is devastating enough to him, that he actually thinks, "Oh my god I'm gonna lose this fight to an oponent who can't even attack me?" then piss himself and run away?

Look at all your examples of lightly armoured ppl defeating the heavy armoured ones, every one was killed.