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Syrio neither dead nor Jaqen


SomethingFunny

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Well lets not forget that Martin has a way of surprising us with a character who seems like a throw away or seems to have outlived his usefulness. Look at Lancel! He was just a poor Jaime substitute for Cersie. And that kinda seemed like all he was. But Martin turned him around into a VERY interesting and plot twisting character.

We could see the same with Syrio. We could also never see Syrio again.
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[quote name='noble splash' post='1576201' date='Nov 3 2008, 16.57']IF Syrio is alive the most believable set of circumstances for me, based on characterization and Martin's style is this. Syrio was unarmed, yes. The six men he stomped were armed. If I was Syrio and was facing Trant unarmed, I'd pick up a sword from the guys I just bashed. The problem then is, Trant lived. Based on my knowledge of Trant and Syrio-Syrio wouldn't run. If Trant, however saw a man beat his six-man entourage with a stick, then pick up a sword to face him alone, I think Trant might measure the man with his eyes then back out the door and leave. He was after Arya and Arya was gone. Catching one little girl wasn't worth dieing and the mess could, and was explained away by the chaos. This would explain why Trant never talks much about the incident. And there you go.[/quote]

This is [b]exactly[/b] my thought on the Syrio thing, too.

My first read of AGoT, I figured if Syrio Forel just beat 5 guard's asses, why doesn't he just grab one of their swords (so what if it isn't his preferred kind of blade, it's better then a stick) and turn on Trant?

Anyway, go you for reading my mind. :]
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Guest Other-in-law
Those guard's swords would be much clumsier and heavier than the type Syrio is used to. And he's still wearing nothing more than cloth, while Meryn Trant is clad [i]in steel[/i]. Much better than those guardsmen were.

And he had already started fighting Trant [i]and was losing[/i]. What's he going to do, call a time out while he scrounges for a sword? They were in the thick of fighting and his weapon waschopped in half; Syrio died a few seconds after Arya left. Just accept it.
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1577318' date='Nov 4 2008, 13.48']And he's still wearing nothing more than cloth, while Meryn Trant is clad [i]in steel[/i]. Much better than those guardsmen were.[/quote]

That might be a point in his favor. A person cannot give chase very well in a full suit of armor. Nor are they very quick, or very coordinated. (To an extent, I understand a knight like Meryn Trant probably trains in his armor just for this situation.)

[quote]And he had already started fighting Trant [i]and was losing[/i]. What's he going to do, call a time out while he scrounges for a sword? They were in the thick of fighting and his weapon was chopped in half; Syrio died a few seconds after Arya left. Just accept it.[/quote]

All the more reason to believe Syrio had the advantage if he fled.

And, it doesn't really matter. Even if Forel didn't die, I don't expect we'll see him in the series, so he might as well be dead.
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[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1575702' date='Nov 3 2008, 13.55']First sword of braavos means nothing in Westeros, Syrio isn't known, just like Clarence Crabb is a legend among cracklaw point people but unknown to Brienne, for them he is "the dancing master" and they just sent one knight with 5 thugs to get Arya.

Besides who would actually tell people how the guy died, or that he was actually dead? Trant didn't even know his name at first, doesn't care about it anyway, and isn't the one who would tell stories.[/quote]


so by this argument, we are to believe that one hell of a thought out character like Syrio dies in an unknown fashion, and then is never talked about again? (except when arya thinks about him). So A master author like GRRM would just let a beloved character's fate pretty much be left unresolved to the reader? I really don't think that one VAGUE sentence from Trant to Cersei is going to be the last we hear of Syrio. If anything, well at least be assured hes dead in some way.
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='chessRuffian' post='1577419' date='Nov 4 2008, 18.03']so by this argument, we are to believe that one hell of a thought out character like Syrio dies in an unknown fashion, and then is never talked about again? (except when arya thinks about him). So A master author like GRRM would just let a beloved character's fate pretty much be left unresolved to the reader? I really don't think that one VAGUE sentence from Trant to Cersei is going to be the last we hear of Syrio. If anything, well at least be assured hes dead in some way.[/quote]
[url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Archon_Meeting_October_5_7/"]http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/...ng_October_5_7/[/url]

[quote]Martin commented on the peculiarity on how some readers will become attached to a character who had so little screen time and pratically no dialogue. He related a story from the Wild Card, where he had to kill a supporting character that has been in 5 scenes and had one line of dialogue "Where's the food?" He received quite a few angry fanmails about the death of that character.[/quote]

:P
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[quote name='Child of the Forest' post='1576276' date='Nov 3 2008, 20.35']I've never understood why anyone feels the need to force these two characters to be the same person, apparently simply because they are both Braavosi and good killers.[/quote]

Well, it's not just that; it would also go a long way toward explaining why Jaquen takes such a shine to Arya almost at once. (I don't have ACoK handy to check, but I'm pretty sure he singles her out and addresses her in a friendly way before she saves him from the fire.) I mean, it doesn't [i]necessarily[/i] need to be a conspiracy, but it was an awfully lucky coincidence for Arya.

I don't buy the theory myself, but I can't quite totally dismiss it, for this reason.
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Dacey' post='1577538' date='Nov 4 2008, 19.42']Well, it's not just that; it would also go a long way toward explaining why Jaquen takes such a shine to Arya almost at once. (I don't have ACoK handy to check, but I'm pretty sure he singles her out and addresses her in a friendly way before she saves him from the fire.) I mean, it doesn't [i]necessarily[/i] need to be a conspiracy, but it was an awfully lucky coincidence for Arya.[/quote]
I feel the simpler explanation is that she demonstrated proficiency both at ruthless fighting and at [i]disguises[/i] long before the fire. She tricked 99% of the NW party into thinking that she was a boy named Arry, and she beat up boys who were bigger and older than she was. That shows promise for a potential Faceless recruit.
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[quote name='chessRuffian' post='1577419' date='Nov 4 2008, 19.03']so by this argument, we are to believe that one hell of a thought out character like Syrio dies in an unknown fashion, and then is never talked about again? (except when arya thinks about him). So A master author like GRRM would just let a beloved character's fate pretty much be left unresolved to the reader? I really don't think that one VAGUE sentence from Trant to Cersei is going to be the last we hear of Syrio. If anything, well at least be assured hes dead in some way.[/quote]
Yes. Because it's realistic. It's more realistic that Syrio is dead and never heard of again (he was, after all, just Arya's dancing instructor) than that Trant and Cersei think about him often.

If he'd lived, I'd think it more likely we'd have heard of him again, because I doubt Trant would let him stay alive. He wasn't going to be captured, in other words.

Remember, Trant isn't one of the trumped-up knights of Cersei's on the KG. He's the KG that Jaime said was the "most dangerous" after himself. He's a very capable knight, and a fully armoured man with a sword against an unarmoured one with a stick is usually going to win.
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1577731' date='Nov 5 2008, 03.10']I feel the simpler explanation is that she demonstrated proficiency both at ruthless fighting and at [i]disguises[/i] long before the fire. She tricked 99% of the NW party into thinking that she was a boy named Arry, and she beat up boys who were bigger and older than she was. That shows promise for a potential Faceless recruit.[/quote]An even simpler explanation, reading the book, is that Jaqen was "friendly" with everyone, trying to get anyone near him. Yoren warned them about that. We get the impression he focuses more on Arya because we have her PoV and because she shows she could be guiled into really not doing what Yoren asked the boys.

As for Arya being a girl, I believe Jaqen never truly knew before Harrenhal, where she didn't hide her gender.
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@ bacchys
[quote]Remember, Trant isn't one of the trumped-up knights of Cersei's on the KG. He's the KG that Jaime said was the "most dangerous" after himself. He's a very capable knight, and a fully armoured man with a sword against an unarmoured one with a stick is usually going to win.[/quote]

No, that's Mandon Moore (the one who chops off Tyrion's nose). Here's from ACOK:
"Jaime had once told him that Moore was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard—excepting himself, always—because his face gave no hint as what he might do next."

Trant is described as only an adequate fighter (though not as bad as Boros Blount).

[b]As to the argument that Syrio wouldn't be able to handle a westerosi sword.[/b] We have no evidence that he can't do that. He only mentions, that the westerosi "hacking and slashing" is very different from the water dance. He might just have stated the obvious, of course, but it could be that he has actually tried the "westerosi dance".

[b]And Martin just forgetting about him?[/b] I don't think so. He probably has received quite some fanmail about that and Syrio constantly reappears in Arya's thoughts.

I'd like to pose some questions to Other-in-Law and Errant Bard who seem to be the most ardent proponents of "Syrio is dead".

Supposing that he is dead,
- Do you truly think he has outlived his usefulness as a character? The example given by Martin himself of the one-line Wild Cards character is a bit extreme, given that Syrio has a lot more significance than that. Plus I could think of some role he might play in Aryas chapters in Braavos.

(On a totally unrelated note, it would be pretty kickass if Arya were to meet the Sealord or first sword of Braavos and hear that there never was a first sword named Syrio.)

- Don't you find it strange that we never hear from him again? Especially in the context of everyone looking for Arya and considering how Cersei looks down on most everybody else, but not specifically on Trant?
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[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1578501' date='Nov 5 2008, 14.51']Supposing that he is dead,
- Do you truly think he has outlived his usefulness as a character? The example given by Martin himself of the one-line Wild Cards character is a bit extreme, given that Syrio has a lot more significance than that. Plus I could think of some role he might play in Aryas chapters in Braavos.[/quote]Yes, he has. Doesn't mean he has no significance, but for all purposes, he is the same as Obiwan was to Luke, better dead and influencing the plot through the "hero".

[quote]- Don't you find it strange that we never hear from him again? Especially in the context of everyone looking for Arya and considering how Cersei looks down on most everybody else, but not specifically on Trant?[/quote]No, I like it when not everything has to be said. It's better for Syrio to not be seen dying, it doesn't tarnish his noble sacrifice. We never hear of anyone in Ned's entourage except for Septa Mordane, anyway.
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I don't really have an opinion on this subject one way or the other. I wouldn't find it the least bit strange if Syrio is never mentioned again (other than in Arya's memories of him) and I wouldn't be all that surprised if he in fact was to turn out to be alive.

But I wanted to add one thing. I don't buy the explanation that it would be all that remarked upon if Trant had killed him. After all, no one seems to recognize Syrio or his name as the First Sword of Braavos so why would they suddenly make that connection after he was dead? He was just the dance instructor Ned Stark hired for his daughter.

It seems to me that it would cause a lot more talk if the dance instructor managed to escape than it would if he happened to be one of all the Stark retainers that were killed that day. There's really no reason for Cersei or Trant to remark upon his death since there's nothing particularly interesting about it (from their perspective), it's even expected. There would be something remarkable and worth talking about if he had escaped since that would be totally unexpected for him to accomplish and would take something out of the ordinary.

That said, I'm not saying there's no way he could possibly have escaped, just that I don't see their lack of comment on his death as support for the theory that he escaped.
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@ Stratonice
[quote]It seems to me that it would cause a lot more talk if the dance instructor managed to escape than it would if he happened to be one of all the Stark retainers that were killed that day. There's really no reason for Cersei or Trant to remark upon his death since there's nothing particularly interesting about it (from their perspective), it's even expected. There would be something remarkable and worth talking about if he had escaped since that would be totally unexpected for him to accomplish and would take something out of the ordinary.[/quote]

I agree! If he had been known to have escaped it would have caused a huge stir (and a rather unpleasant one for Trant at that). That's why I argued in the opening post that Trant lied to Cersei (supposing he did escape).

Shit, I can't wait for A Dance with Dragons...
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[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1578664' date='Nov 5 2008, 17.01']@ Stratonice


I agree! If he had been known to have escaped it would have caused a huge stir (and a rather unpleasant one for Trant at that). That's why I argued in the opening post that Trant lied to Cersei (supposing he did escape).[/quote]

I suppose that's a possibility, but it seems like reaching for straws to me.

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1578664' date='Nov 5 2008, 17.01']Shit, I can't wait for A Dance with Dragons...[/quote]

Based on all the weird theories circulating I think it's safe to say you're not the only one...
My own little pet theory (with flimsy support at best) involves Ashara Dayne faking her own suicide to escape with a presumed baby Aegon (not sure if I believe he's the real thing or a fake), marrying Jon Connington and the two of them raising the young prince. So it seems there are a lot of us with way too much time on our hands. ;)
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1578501' date='Nov 5 2008, 08.51'][b]As to the argument that Syrio wouldn't be able to handle a westerosi sword.[/b] We have no evidence that he can't do that. He only mentions, that the westerosi "hacking and slashing" is very different from the water dance. He might just have stated the obvious, of course, but it could be that he has actually tried the "westerosi dance".[/quote]
Of course he could swing a Westerosi sword around. So could [i]I.[/i] But I would totally suck at it, and lose virtually instantly to anyone who had years of training at it, no matter how mediocre they were.

The point is that [i]not only[/i] would he be trying to fight with a weapon that he is nowhere near as familiar with, and only cloth to protect him, but [i]he's already on the ropes before he even has the chance to pick it up.[/i] Again. Do you think he's going to call a time out? Trant is going to chop him in half when he bends down. He's pretty much going to chop him in half no matter what he does, really.

If we were to assume that he turned and ran away (his only hope of survival, and still uncertain) what does that say about his character? What does the beloved, honourable badass who claims 'the First Sword of Braavos does not flee' turn into? Let's put it nicely, and just say someone who betrays his own principles for convenience sake. No thanks, I prefer the version that's both inspiring [i]and[/i] realistic.

It's worth noting also that the 'GRRM wouldn't want to kill off a character who was so beloved by the fans!' angle fails utterly. Syrio only appears in aGoT. At the time he was writing him, there was absolutely [i]zero[/i] fan feedback on anything in the series, let alone Syrio. :rolleyes:
[quote][b]And Martin just forgetting about him?[/b] I don't think so. He probably has received quite some fanmail about that and Syrio constantly reappears in Arya's thoughts.[/quote]
Of course. He hasn't forgotten about Ned Stark, either, but Ned's still dead, baby!


[quote]- Do you truly think he has outlived his usefulness as a character? The example given by Martin himself of the one-line Wild Cards character is a bit extreme, given that Syrio has a lot more significance than that. Plus I could think of some role he might play in Aryas chapters in Braavos.[/quote]
'Could' is not 'will'. I could think of all kinds of useful things that Q'horin Halfhand could be doing back on the Wall, like getting elected Lord Commander. But he won't because he's dead. Has Q'horin Halfhand outlived his usefulness?

Have all of the characters that have died? Well, yes and no. One thing that strikes me about the series is the way characters deeds live on after them continuing to have consequences after they are gone. Like Ned Stark's decision to send Beric Dondarrion out after the Mountain. The BwB was the direct child of that choice, and they continue to be a player into the near future at least. or Oberyn martells decision to duel the Mountain with a poisoned spear, which led to Dorne on the verge of open rebellion and Qyburn's ghoulish experiments in the Black cells, which will have further consequences still.


[quote]- Don't you find it strange that we never hear from him again? Especially in the context of everyone looking for Arya and considering how Cersei looks down on most everybody else, but not specifically on Trant?[/quote]
Do you find it strange that we never hear from Tarber and Cutjack, the NW recruits who abandoned Arya? Or the baby they called weasel? I don't. There's hundreds of people that the various POVs have encountered here and there, no surprise that some of the minor ones drift out of the picture, just as hundreds of people that any of us meet over our lives drift out of our awareness.
Of course that doesn't really apply to Syrio at all. We have a perfectly good idea of what his probable fate was, and we [i]did[/i] hear about him briefly from Cersei, as a minor nuisance who disrupted her plans.
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1577336' date='Nov 4 2008, 14.10']So you are abandoning the theory that Syrio picked up one of the guard's swords then? :)[/quote]

Well, it's more of a flamboyant hope than a theory. Just that if I were in Syrio's shoes, I would have grabbed a sword and done what I could, and/or fled the scene.

--

[quote name='Other-in-law']If we were to assume that he turned and ran away (his only hope of survival, and still uncertain) what does that say about his character? What does the beloved, honourable badass who claims 'the First Sword of Braavos does not flee' turn into? Let's put it nicely, and just say someone who betrays his own principles for convenience sake. No thanks, I prefer the version that's both inspiring and realistic.[/quote]

???

It's more realistic for a person to stand there and be chopped in half while holding a stick, and make no effort to fight back (by grabbing a nearby weapon [i]of some kind[/i]) then to believe that in life-or-death situations, people's words are nowhere near the conviction they thought they had?

I mean, you bring a lot of level-headed, clear thinking when you write and post, but this is an instance that just doesn't add up.
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Denver' post='1578883' date='Nov 5 2008, 14.07']???

It's more realistic for a person to stand there and be chopped in half while holding a stick, and make no effort to fight back (by grabbing a nearby weapon [i]of some kind[/i]) then to believe that in life-or-death situations, people's words are nowhere near the conviction they thought they had?

I mean, you bring a lot of level-headed, clear thinking when you write and post, but this is an instance that just doesn't add up.[/quote]
Thanks. What I mean to be realistic is that the guy without any protective armour and a broken stick is probably going to be mincemeat in a fight against a fully armoured guy with a sharp steel sword. Not that he won't [i]try[/i] to fight back (he obviously was trying, and buying Arya precious time by doing so), but that he really doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell. Even running away (which cheapens the character) means that he can't see that sword blow coming down on him to dodge it. There's no guarantee that running away saves him. And he has no time to pick up a sword from the ground, when Trant is raining swordblows down on him.

Another general point, Trant had [i]already[/i] decided for Syrio to die, he ordered the Red Cloaks to kill him. So there's really not much chance that Syrio was taken alive.
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