Mafia 59.5 - Murder In Trinity College

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I hate to say it, but Piper was simply wrong. I am always scared to death when trusting WJ. He is my biggest fear, but I doubt even he would go so far as to lynch both his teammates.

It has to be either THW or Tsoert. Those are the only options (it could be piper, but he is going to die anyway)

[The Man Who]

I'm definitely leaning towards it being Tseort, I think the evidence is greater there, but I think you have to accept that you are not CI Lany. I would place you as a PI. I'm not sure how WJ came to class you as CI, and I think you have also been throwing the CI around yourself (I'm going to have a check on a reread a little later.

I'm still convinced that WJ is innocent, but I'm less sure about you. I'm even less sure about Tseort, but I plan on doing some rereading on you both before making a decision.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610070' date='Dec 5 2008, 07.27']I'm definitely leaning towards it being Tseort, I think the evidence is greater there, but I think you have to accept that you are not CI Lany. I would place you as a PI. I'm not sure how WJ came to class you as CI, and I think you have also been throwing the CI around yourself (I'm going to have a check on a reread a little later.

I'm still convinced that WJ is innocent, but I'm less sure about you. I'm even less sure about Tseort, but I plan on doing some rereading on you both before making a decision.[/quote]


Of course I consider myself CI :P


Just so you guys know, I will be out all afternoon. Work team building thing.

[Whiskeyjack]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610057' date='Dec 5 2008, 06.12']Lany revealed as the perceptive finder right? And this is not a CI role (neither is role finder actually according to the role list). So although WJ has established that she was PF, this does not necessarily entail that she was PI. Although some people have treated it as such.

I don't think WJ is a killer, but I'm wondering if he assumed too much about Lany - it is only the finder who is a CI, not the role and perceptive finders.

This is hurting my brain. Is it possible that Lany lied about Masonity (I didn't really see him as guilty until he had his self-implosion)? WJ was misled into thinking of her as CI. If this is the case, then Masonity was just innocent (not Godfather). Could Mentat have been a Godfather - no, WJ checked on his role. That bit still confuses me as Piper was so convinced of Mentat's guilt.

Damn you people you are causing brainmelt.[/quote]

Why would the Perceptive Finder role be given to an evil player? Thats why I trust Lany. Because [u]the role makes no sense for evil[/u]. It can be used to investigate a dead player and determine if they were a symp, Godfather, or innocent student.

1) The FM have no use for a symp who is already dead
2) The FM already know if somebody is a Godfather
3) The FM already know if somebody was an innocent student (b/c the player wasn't part of their group, and he was labeled guilty by the CF)

Its a useless power for evil. It only makes sense for an innocent. Therefore, Lany is innocent. She is not a suspect.

Given that she is innocent, she must be telling the truth about Masonity. And given that Masonity voted for Harlot, he can't be a symp. So Masonity was a Godfather. This is all very simple logic.

Week is VPI. Lany is CI. Piper is dying soon.

That leaves us with 2 suspects - Tsoert and TMW.

I investigated Tsoert last night. He's telling the truth about not having a role.

Meanwhile, TMW saw our plan to lynch him based on his role, and now all of a sudden he's claiming that he lied about the role. He isn't the Berserker after all. Anybody else's bullshit meter going off?

I think TMW is the vote today. I'd like for Tsoert to be the first vote, just in case TMW is innocent and lying about not having the role (out of some strange sense of newbie self-preservation), so that we can cover all of our bases and possibly handle both suspects at once. But if he refuses to cast the first vote, then I will.

Tsoert, will you vote for TMW?

[Whiskeyjack]

Regarding the lack of a night kill - the most likely explanation is that the FM tried to kill Week. The FM saw that he couldn't win with Week alive, so he took a chance that Week was lying and targeted him. He was telling the truth, and survived. So we didn't get a night kill.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1609938' date='Dec 5 2008, 01.43']Whoops, I just reread WJ's plan and it won't work exactly like that.

Why? Because I'm not really the berserker. I did look at what Lany said and thought I'd test his powers as well. Well I didn't get a read either way - either he hasn't looked at me or he is lying about being rf (massively unlikely).

I'm sorry that I've been the fly in this plan's ointment.[/quote]


If you are not a berserker, then what is your role?

[The Man Who]

[quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1610076' date='Dec 5 2008, 14.32']Why would the Perceptive Finder role be given to an evil player? Thats why I trust Lany. Because [u]the role makes no sense for evil[/u]. It can be used to investigate a dead player and determine if they were a symp, Godfather, or innocent student.

1) The FM have no use for a symp who is already dead
2) The FM already know if somebody is a Godfather
3) The FM already know if somebody was an innocent student (b/c the player wasn't part of their group, and he was labeled guilty by the CF)

Its a useless power for evil. It only makes sense for an innocent. Therefore, Lany is innocent. She is not a suspect.

Given that she is innocent, she must be telling the truth about Masonity. And given that Masonity voted for Harlot, he can't be a symp. So Masonity was a Godfather. This is all very simple logic.

Week is VPI. Lany is CI. Piper is dying soon.

That leaves us with 2 suspects - Tsoert and TMW.

I investigated Tsoert last night. He's telling the truth about not having a role.

Meanwhile, TMW saw our plan to lynch him based on his role, and now all of a sudden he's claiming that he lied about the role. He isn't the Berserker after all. Anybody else's bullshit meter going off?

I think TMW is the vote today. I'd like for Tsoert to be the first vote, just in case TMW is innocent and lying about not having the role (out of some strange sense of newbie self-preservation), so that we can cover all of our bases and possibly handle both suspects at once. But if he refuses to cast the first vote, then I will.

Tsoert, will you vote for TMW?[/quote]

I think I already explained that I claimed berserker to test you. You haven't actually passed that test but I'm willing to believe in you. I wouldn't have lied about I was because Lany said that we shouldn't tell you, and Tseort said roleless and I figured it would be a good extra check.

I then woke up and saw you had formulated a plan amongst your small group which involved using the berserker role I had claimed, so I told you immediately in order not to mess up the plan that way. In my paranoid part of my mind I was also worried that if Tseort was innocent, you could be looking for a 2fer on the lynch.

As for your reasoning on the Lany CI, I am actually worried about how sloppy that thinking is, especially as it comes from you. I was under the impression that roles were randomly handed out rather than picked for individual people. In this light, someone would get whichever random role was available, and every indication we have says that both your role and Lany's role can be assigned to either faction.

I just don't understand your logical jump. I think at best it says PI, because you can't be totally sure that Lany isn't one side or another, unless you already know who is on which side.

So basically you've just thrown yourself into my suspicious pile with this reasoning, which is annoying as I had you as one of the strongest almost certain innocents.

The role has one potentially gamebreaking use for evil. I hope we didn't see it done on Masonity.

[The Man Who]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1610081' date='Dec 5 2008, 14.42']If you are not a berserker, then what is your role?[/quote]

I don't have one. I didn't do the riddle.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610087' date='Dec 5 2008, 07.46']I don't have one. I didn't do the riddle.[/quote]

I am finding this very hard to believe.


[b]remove vote[/b]

[Whiskeyjack]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610084' date='Dec 5 2008, 06.44']I think I already explained that I claimed berserker to test you. You haven't actually passed that test but I'm willing to believe in you. I wouldn't have lied about I was because Lany said that we shouldn't tell you, and Tseort said roleless and I figured it would be a good extra check.

I then woke up and saw you had formulated a plan amongst your small group which involved using the berserker role I had claimed, so I told you immediately in order not to mess up the plan that way. In my paranoid part of my mind I was also worried that if Tseort was innocent, you could be looking for a 2fer on the lynch.[/quote]

Oh okay. I see now. You claimed Berserker to test me. And I didn't pass the test....but you're willing to "believe in me" anyway? How does that make sense?

[quote name='TMW']As for your reasoning on the Lany CI, I am actually worried about how sloppy that thinking is, especially as it comes from you. I was under the impression that roles were randomly handed out rather than picked for individual people. In this light, someone would get whichever random role was available, and every indication we have says that both your role and Lany's role can be assigned to either faction.

I just don't understand your logical jump. I think at best it says PI, because you can't be totally sure that Lany isn't one side or another, unless you already know who is on which side.[/quote]

The role list says that certain roles "may be given to either faction." Not that they will be assigned randomly to either faction. I can't find anything that says they will be assigned randomly to either faction. Meaning that if a role only makes sense for one faction, I'm going to conclude that it was given to that faction.

I'd appreciate mod clarification here. I'm not sure if they are willing to say anything, but if they are, I'd like to know if roles that "may be given to either faction" were randomly assigned between factions, or if some were chosen specifically for either side.

[quote name='TMW']So basically you've just thrown yourself into my suspicious pile with this reasoning, which is annoying as I had you as one of the strongest almost certain innocents.[/quote]

But wait, I thought you were willing to believe in me?

[quote name='TMW']The role has one potentially gamebreaking use for evil. I hope we didn't see it done on Masonity.[/quote]

And what exactly is that use?

[Whiskeyjack]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610087' date='Dec 5 2008, 06.46']I don't have one. I didn't do the riddle.[/quote]

Why not?

[The Man Who]

Another thought I've had. Wj, you said that Week was the attempted NK. I don't think this makes sense if either Tsoert or I made the NK, as we both had two purported CIs to be able to definitely pick off. Whereas he and I are a lot less likely to be targeted due to being easier to lynch. If either Lany or you and Lany are FM, then it would seem having a risky crack at Week and hoping to catch him with his pants down would be a stronger strategy. Also, if you and Lany were both FM, taking down Mullendore and Week in one go, and then Piper exploding would give you a quick win.

The move makes no sense to me unless it came from your side, unless Piper somehow doesn't go bang.

[House Targaryen]

[quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1610095' date='Dec 5 2008, 12.58']I'd appreciate mod clarification here. I'm not sure if they are willing to say anything, but if they are, I'd like to know if roles that "may be given to either faction" were randomly assigned between factions, or if some were chosen specifically for either side.[/quote]

As it happens, your mods aren't willing to say anything on this. Sorry. :devil:

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610099' date='Dec 5 2008, 08.00']Another thought I've had. Wj, you said that Week was the attempted NK. I don't think this makes sense if either Tsoert or I made the NK, as we both had two purported CIs to be able to definitely pick off. Whereas he and I are a lot less likely to be targeted due to being easier to lynch. If either Lany or you and Lany are FM, then it would seem having a risky crack at Week and hoping to catch him with his pants down would be a stronger strategy. Also, if you and Lany were both FM, taking down Mullendore and Week in one go, and then Piper exploding would give you a quick win.

The move makes no sense to me unless it came from your side, unless Piper somehow doesn't go bang.[/quote]


You are not making any sense. The killers HAVE to eliminate the healer if possible. They can't take the risk if having their kills blocked. It is reaonable to assume Week would bluff about healing himself and then heal WJ instead.

[The Man Who]

[quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1610095' date='Dec 5 2008, 14.58']Oh okay. I see now. You claimed Berserker to test me. And I didn't pass the test....but you're willing to "believe in me" anyway? How does that make sense?



The role list says that certain roles "may be given to either faction." Not that they will be assigned randomly to either faction. I can't find anything that says they will be assigned randomly to either faction. Meaning that if a role only makes sense for one faction, I'm going to conclude that it was given to that faction.

I'd appreciate mod clarification here. I'm not sure if they are willing to say anything, but if they are, I'd like to know if roles that "may be given to either faction" were randomly assigned between factions, or if some were chosen specifically for either side.



But wait, I thought you were willing to believe in me?



And what exactly is that use?[/quote]

I tried to test you - you didn't actually really take the test. To pass or fail you would have had to have looked at me at some point and you clearly haven't done so.

I still don't think that you necessarily have to be guilty, but if you are then Lany is. And I think it is possible for Lany to be guilty and you not to realise it due to your divergent understanding of the rules from me.

The use in terms of Masonity's death was to claim someone as guilty who was innocent. Admittedly this can be done without the use of the actual role, but then there is susceptibility to role finders and indecisive symps. This would confuse any vote analysis that was done, most probably to the evil advantage.

The one question which I'm positive you won't believe is my answer to why I didn't do the riddle. I didn't realise how important roles were, and just wanted to concentrate on learning how to play the game without having to worry so much about that side of things. Which makes no sense to me now, but it made sense to me at that time. I regret very much being put off by it's length and me not thinking it of worth.

[The Man Who]

I think my point still stands, random or not, the fact remains that there is no 100% way of saying that no FM would get PF. The rules do not disallow it (in fact they SPECIFICALLY exclude the role finder and the perceptive finder from being innocent only).

[The Man Who]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1610104' date='Dec 5 2008, 15.05']You are not making any sense. The killers HAVE to eliminate the healer if possible. They can't take the risk if having their kills blocked. It is reaonable to assume Week would bluff about healing himself and then heal WJ instead.[/quote]

I'm unconvinced by this argument. I think killing 1 CI has a better chance of working overall than killing the healer. There is a very low probability that the healer won't heal themselves, and killing a CI buys more time to lynch any lynchables and get some NKs.

Either way, your point does not preclude anyone from being in either faction.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610111' date='Dec 5 2008, 08.09']I think my point still stands, random or not, the fact remains that there is no 100% way of saying that no FM would get PF. The rules do not disallow it (in fact they SPECIFICALLY exclude the role finder and the perceptive finder from being innocent only).[/quote]


you are right and I am the only one who should really CI me based on that alone. However, when you add that info to what else we know, it makes since to consider me PI. Look at how Masonity basically gave up when WJ set out to lynch him. If he was truly innocent, he would not have reacted that way. no one does. he kenw he was guilty and he knew he was caught. look at everyone's reactions to his being innocent. how many people were surprised by it?

[Whiskeyjack]

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1610099' date='Dec 5 2008, 07.00']Another thought I've had. Wj, you said that Week was the attempted NK. I don't think this makes sense if either Tsoert or I made the NK, as we both had two purported CIs to be able to definitely pick off. Whereas he and I are a lot less likely to be targeted due to being easier to lynch. If either Lany or you and Lany are FM, then it would seem having a risky crack at Week and hoping to catch him with his pants down would be a stronger strategy. Also, if you and Lany were both FM, taking down Mullendore and Week in one go, and then Piper exploding would give you a quick win.

The move makes no sense to me unless it came from your side, unless Piper somehow doesn't go bang.[/quote]

If you or Tsoert are a lone FM, then the only way you can win is by killing Week. Of course targeting him would make sense for you. It was your only option.

If Lany and I are an evil team together, then we wouldn't need to kill Week. He's a threat to a lone FM, but not 2 evil players together.

[quote name='Trinity Head Porter' post='1610102' date='Dec 5 2008, 07.02']As it happens, your mods aren't willing to say anything on this. Sorry. :devil:[/quote]

Okay. Then I'm sticking with my assumption.

And at this point, based on his recent posts, I'm willing to cross off the possibility that TMW is innocent and lying about not having the Berserker role. He's either guilty, or he's innocent and doesn't have the role. Which means that we can scrap my plan from yesterday. We have to decide between Tsoert and TMW without the benefit of a 2 for 1 lynch.

Luckily, we still have the fallback protection of the FM being unable to kill Week/Mullendore. So we should be fine.

[The Man Who]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1610114' date='Dec 5 2008, 15.13']you are right and I am the only one who should really CI me based on that alone. However, when you add that info to what else we know, it makes since to consider me PI. Look at how Masonity basically gave up when WJ set out to lynch him. If he was truly innocent, he would not have reacted that way. no one does. he kenw he was guilty and he knew he was caught. look at everyone's reactions to his being innocent. how many people were surprised by it?[/quote]

If I recall correctly, Piper was, I was (although I and some others weren't even around).

This is another thing that worries me. You and WJ suddenly jumped together as a voting bloc and started pushing all of the lynches. Everything seems to be going to your plan. Most things have worked out for your benefit. You have excluded others from giving their input, and you have lynched mostly innocents, although you also claim to have lynched an FM, although only you have any evidence as to that.

Can you at least understand where I'm coming from?