Sword fighting!

[Myrddin]

Regardless of it's place in this show:

Keep in mind that grappling led to broken bones. It wasn't a soft way of taking out your opponent. Think about how much it hurts to have your arm twisted behind your back. Now imagine that you have sleeves of metal digging into your arm, adding pressure.

It takes less pressure to break someone's arm or shoulder in full plate than out of plate.

(Not some formless internet opinion. I've read alot about these techniques and attended a weekend seminar about them)

Another thing about these techniques: the same moves work unarmed, with a dagger, short sword, long, or pike. It's remarkable to watch someone who has studied the manuals extensively to deconstruct them in real life. Watch them apply an unarmed move to a person, flipping them to the ground or entangling them. Then add a dagger with the same outcome, except maybe with some cut tendons. Only slight variation is needed to adapt to a short sword and then long. From there, it's not a long stretch to use a pike.

Do they belong in HBO's adaptation? Probably not, but only due to their abscence from the books. They still would look good on screen, much as watching akido looks good on screen.

ETA: and just like Asian martial arts, for every move there is a counter, so a real fight between masters would be strike, counter, counter-strike, counter, etc. The YouTube videos of one strike that is blocked followed by a killing stroke is what Heroes do to the bad guy's minions. :) (in the movies)

[cronos619]

[quote name='Myrddin' post='1622683' date='Dec 17 2008, 09.12']Regardless of it's place in this show:

Keep in mind that grappling led to broken bones. It wasn't a soft way of taking out your opponent. Think about how much it hurts to have your arm twisted behind your back. Now imagine that you have sleeves of metal digging into your arm, adding pressure.

It takes less pressure to break someone's arm or shoulder in full plate than out of plate.[/quote]


In 15 years of fighting in platemail, I have never found this to be the case. It is certainly easier to pull an arm out of socket or force a rip in a rotater cuff, but breaking an arm being easier, I'm not so sure about.

[J D]

I like the part in Troy when Brad Pitt ran up and stabbed the big guy in the neck, thus ending that entire battle in about 15 seconds. Later you saw that he tried the same with Sir Hector but he was smart enough to deflect it.

It told you their capabilities and I thought it was very cool. You don't have to have 15 minute fight scenes everytime people fight. If it's two main characters yeah. If it's not, then things like the techniques in this video would be alright. Why not just make some extra look totally helpess at the business end of someone like Jamie's sword?

[WightMeWorry]

Ok perhaps this is a real dumb question and will pull the thread off-topic, but how much of the fighting will happen with helms on?

[cronos619]

[quote name='WightMeWorry' post='1625099' date='Dec 18 2008, 20.40']Ok perhaps this is a real dumb question and will pull the thread off-topic, but how much of the fighting will happen with helms on?[/quote]

I would assume (totally unfounded speculation) that unless it is specificly descibed that the character has a helm on and it is an element of style or plot, they will find a way to keep the actors' faces visable.

When Syrio fight Meryn Trant, I would think its important to have Meryn in his helm. It completes the image of the Knight of the Kingsguard covered in plate from head to toe versus Syrio in nothing but a leather vest with a wooden stick. The visual disparity between the two helps to tell the story of how high the odds are stacked against Syrio. Similarly, when Bronn fights Ser Vardis, championing Tyrion, part of the story of the fight is Ser Vardis being worn out by fighting in all that armor, and it can set up a great moment of his visor being ripped oupen to reveal a face pouring with sweet, breathing heavily through the mouth.

But, in the end, what is most important is how the director wants the fight to move the plot for that episode forward. To that end he/she may either need helm or no helm, both have merits, but more often than not I would think a director would want to give their actors the chance to use their faces.



oh sweet... post #100

[Myrddin]

[quote name='cronos619' post='1623547' date='Dec 17 2008, 16.29']In 15 years of fighting in platemail, I have never found this to be the case. It is certainly easier to pull an arm out of socket or force a rip in a rotater cuff, but breaking an arm being easier, I'm not so sure about.[/quote]
Fighting with swords and lance? You're absolutely right. But if you tried to (seriously) grapple using wrist and arm lock techniques (think Steven Segal akido moves), bones would be broken with far less effort.

Try gently with a friend next time you suit up. The armor locks your limbs in place even while the joints are being twisted. There's only so much give before something pops.

[J D]

The theory of Akido would still work, just not small joint manipulation. Someone swinging a sword could still be manipulated if they miss. Especially in full plate when their sense of balance could totally be taken advantage of.

[cronos619]

[quote name='Myrddin' post='1625681' date='Dec 19 2008, 11.05']Fighting with swords and lance? You're absolutely right. But if you tried to (seriously) grapple using wrist and arm lock techniques (think Steven Segal akido moves), bones would be broken with far less effort.

Try gently with a friend next time you suit up. The armor locks your limbs in place even while the joints are being twisted. There's only so much give before something pops.[/quote]

I guess I don't have a clear understanding of the moves you are talking about or which bones you think would be broken by them. Properly made and fitted platemail would not lock you limbs in place and the very nature of the design protects bones from snapping. I'm not trying to say you are wrong about it, but I would like to understand. There is obviously something I'm missing.

[Myrddin]

[quote name='cronos619' post='1625799' date='Dec 19 2008, 12.48']I guess I don't have a clear understanding of the moves you are talking about or which bones you think would be broken by them. Properly made and fitted platemail would not lock you limbs in place and the very nature of the design protects bones from snapping. I'm not trying to say you are wrong about it, but I would like to understand. There is obviously something I'm missing.[/quote]
My only hands on experience with any of the European medieval martial arts is limited to a weekend seminar with a guy who was writing a book on the treatise attributed to [url="http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/fiore/"]Fiore dei Liberi [/url], a fighting master around 1350s - 1420s. Several of the other students were SCA members. The instructor walked us through a number of the moves detailed in the manual, beginning with unarmed, then adding dagger, sword, etc to show how they apply in disarming, killing, or maiming no matter what you're holding (or not) in your hands.

As someone who practiced Asian martial arts for 8 years or so, I found a lot of the moves familiar. Not in the exact forms, but the utilization of pressure point and manipulating joints (when entrapping someone's arm in their own sword for instance). That's why I mentioned Steven Segal, not because I'm his biggest fan or anything, but because many of his akido moves had similar results to many of Dei Liberi's techniques: opponents ended up flat on their back or nursing broken limbs.

One thing the instructor reinforced over the weekend was for people who participated in historical combat groups not to use these techniques while wearing plate, because it was alot easier to get hurt.

That said, don't take my word for it. :) Find a class teaching Dei Liberi or one of the other masters of the period. Here's a [url="http://www.academyofarms.com/"]school [/url] I found using Google in LA. I can't even remember how I found the class in Denver...

What ever you find out, let me know (PM or email me). I'm happy to be corrected. :)

[cronos619]

Ah, now I see what you are getting at now.

No matter what they decide to go with, hopefully the director will have a clear vision of what they want and the choreographer can deliver what they need.

[Myrddin]

[quote name='cronos619' post='1625934' date='Dec 19 2008, 13.40']No matter what they decide to go with, hopefully the director will have a clear vision of what they want and the choreographer can deliver what they need.[/quote]
I agree completely. Even though I'd ike to see Western Martial Arts shown in a historical context, I'm not convinced this is the show to do it. Story and characters first.

[cronos619]

[quote name='Myrddin' post='1627506' date='Dec 21 2008, 18.06']I agree completely. Even though I'd ike to see Western Martial Arts shown in a historical context, I'm not convinced this is the show to do it. Story and characters first.[/quote]

If the series gets picked up and becomes a hit, that when some one can pitch the History channel on "The history behind the combat in HBO's smash hit A Game of Thrones"

[Ser Greguh]

First off, there won't be much swordfighting in A Game of Thrones, weird as that might seem. I'm not focusing on what further seasons would bring just yet, but in Book 1, the only real "money fight" is between Bronn and Ser Vardis, which is described in such detail as to make extemporizing it seem vaguely sacrilegious. There, the dynamic to be played upon is exactly as Martin describes: Bronn dances and weaves around his heavily armored opponent until he tires, and eventually finds his opening.

Not much combat takes place in the first book, other than that. Off the top of my head, I can think of:

1) Sparring in Winterfell between Bran/Tommen (comically incompetent) and Robb/Joffrey (offscreen in the books).

2) Duels at Khal Drogo and Dany's wedding between random Dothraki. If shown, it should be very fast, eastern-style duels between unarmored opponents angling for the all-important first strike.

3) At the tourney of the Hand. Brief swordfight between Gregor and Sandor, to no result, after Gregor attacks Loras and Sandor saves him.

4) Random Dothraki battles. Mostly people shooting arrows from horseback, some arakh fights.

5) Arya's training.

6) Jaime accosting Ned in the streets. More about numbers than skill.

7) Syrio and Ser Meryn. Conflicting styles (implacable vs. flamboyant), problems involving a wooden sword.

8) The Green Fork. A battle is a poor place to pick and choose combat styles; will be an exercise in logistics to whatever degree it's shown, so I don't care as much about the combat mechanics.

9) The Whispering Wood. I picture this mostly offscreen, as in the books.

And ... that's about it. It always bothers me when combat looks poorly choreographed, like when one character makes a huge, arcing sweep of his sword and the other character goes to block even before the motion starts. I always think "my goodness, in the time it took him to swing that sword. Any competent opponent could have closed in and run him through three times over." Careful fighting choreography makes a big difference.

[cronos619]

I think your list is pretty spot on, for GoT

#6 Jaime accosting Ned in the streets will be pretty complex if they decide to go with it as written in the book. Horses make everything more complex, so they might decide to break from the book and have everyone or most of the people on foot.

#3 The Hands Tourney will probably need some establishing shots of fighting / jousting going on, to give the flavor of the event, but nothing overly complex.

#7 Syrio vs Meryn + 5 Lannister guards, much like Bronn and Ser Vardis, it is very well descibed in the book. Only 4 moves in the book between Syrio and Meryn before the wooden sword breaks.

as for Bronn vs Vardis, that one is going to be a pretty big undertaking. The actor playing Bronn can't really have a stunt double, and maintaining continuity with the observers in the background could end up as a nightmare.

In the end though, the fighting is just another spice in the pie and most importantly needs to not take people out of the storyline or disrupt the over all movement of the plot.

[LordNedsHead]

Dont forget possible flashback of the fight between Rhaegar and Robert and the "Promise me Ned" scene could concievably have some as well depending on how much they want to show.

[Gendry Baratheon]

I am very interested to see the fight at Khal Drogo'sand Danaerys wedding...

[Darkostar]

This is why I suporrt Ray Park for the casting of SOMEBODY, because he's one of the best stage combat professionals of all time and would inject a hell of a lot of quality into the show if cast in the proper role.

[cronos619]

[quote name='R'hllor Coaster' post='1634652' date='Dec 30 2008, 23.31']This is why I suporrt Ray Park for the casting of SOMEBODY, because he's one of the best stage combat professionals of all time and would inject a hell of a lot of quality into the show if cast in the proper role.[/quote]
:agree:

Ray Park's adaptives style would be perfect for any project. He is, in my opinion, the best fight choreographer in Hollywood. He would easily be able to develop fighting styles that were unique to the various areas of Westeros, grounded in European traditional fighting styles, and make thematic elements that would be common to all of them. Also he would be able to create an in depth fighting style for the Arakh, and as a double for Syrio we would truly see a Water Dance. Not that any of this depth in the fighting styles is truly necessary, but it can add a certain amount of "real" feel to the world. However, he may be tied up for awhile, as his new movie "King of Fighters" just started filming on the 5th.

[Wraith Regent]

the sword fighting in that youtube video is pretty historically accurate and would make for some good footage if you add in a small bit of 300 finesse.