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Andhaira

Flashbacks or no flashbacks?

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So have we decided on a consensus for this? Now I personally do NOT want flashbacks to earlier periods, since IMO its a pretty cheesy method of storytelling. I would rather the characters just offer bits and pieces of roberts rebellion and other events during the show and have the intuitive watcher put 2 and 2 together. Kind of like in AGoT.

Now Ned's flashback regarding Arthur Dyne: This could either be done as a one off fevered dream sequence, or we coudl just have a dream scene where ned stands over the corpses of the KG and his allies while we hear Lyanna's scream and her pleading with ned.

Thoughts? IMO flashbacks reduce overall quality and imply plot handholding. ASOIAF doesn't need that.

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I tend to be of the opinion that the story can't be told as effectively as it wants to be without skilled use of flashbacks.

IMHO, flashbacks always have to be used in reference to the [i]present action[/i], and not simply as exposition (like the LOTR movie opening). The interesting thing about ASoIaF, and AGoT in particular, is that the present action is greatly affected by the events that have come before.

The books use flashbacks pretty heavily, generally in the form of memories or dreams. I don't see why the series can't as well - why tell audiences what happened, when you can show them? The question that always needs to be asked, however, is "How does this flashback sequence relate DIRECTLY to what is happening in the present?" If it doesn't relate, and doesn't help tell the current story, then I agree that it should be avoided.

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Hmmm, how about making one or two whole episode about Roberts rebellion, and the things that happend in the past?

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Definitely have to have repeated "Promise me Ned" scenes, although they don't exactly have to be flashbacks.

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I think the use of flashbacks will be necessary in order to understand some of the current events. Especially, how Lyanna's promise has affected Ned and his family. For me, this is one of the most important events to get across to the audience, more important than the rebellion because so many characters know about how those events unfolded. However, Ned's promise to Lyanna is something only a few people are aware of.

The proper use of flashbacks can enhance the experience for the viewer and allow them to get a glimpse into who a character is or what the situation is based on. I think the directors will be able to decide which flashbacks are important and which ones are not.

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I think that its also important to show the scene when Cat confronts Ned about the rumors of Ashara Dayne. Ned's uncharacteristic intensely angry reaction not only gives us insight into the situation with Jon and how it affects the family, but also adds some depth to Ned. At the same time, lending some further credence to Cat's resentment of Jon and a window, for the unread TV audience, into the internal struggle that Ned has about it. At no other time do we see Ned's closely controled emotions boil over, let alone erupt in an angry outburst.

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[quote name='Andhaira' post='1613366' date='Dec 9 2008, 20.46']So have we decided on a consensus for this? Now I personally do NOT want flashbacks to earlier periods, since IMO its a pretty cheesy method of storytelling.[/quote]

Judicious use of flashbacks are fine. And it is necessary for people to appreciate what Jolly King Bob, the first of his name, once was and what he has now become. Mere descriptions are not sufficient.

[quote name='Callum' post='1613391' date='Dec 9 2008, 22.39']Definitely have to have repeated "Promise me Ned" scenes, although they don't exactly have to be flashbacks.[/quote]

Nah, only one. From that point on a disembodied voice inside Ned's head.

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Think it might be cool to have disembodied voice instances first, and then see an actual flashback later on in the season, a buildup-payoff thing. If they could pull it off.

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Flashbacks are nudity of the plot: the clothing of the present is pulled away and the history that underlies it laid bare. Flashbacks intrigue us, give us a sense of the shape within. However, too much flashback is just cheap and tacky. I guess what I'm saying is, flashbacks are okay so long as they are [i]tasteful[/i].

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I'm not opposed to flashbacks, but in this regard I would prefer too little than too much. The series are about the present, not the past. Seeing glimpses of Robert and Rhaegar at the Trident, or hear Lyanna's plead at the Tower of Joy is OK, but too much flashback would distract from the main storyline and would be expensive.

Many things can be just hinted, explained, or moved in time: Old Nan telling to Bran the tale of how King Robert won the thron can be included. Catelyn inquiring Eddard about Jon can be seen in present time. Maester Luwin can lecture the boys on ancient history. And so on.

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Well they can't them "others" and have lots of flashbacks ;)

I think the show can use the book as a template. Very few of the past scenes in the book are flashbacks, usually weird dreams or in conversation. I say the tv show should do them the same. I think for Ned we have to have his "flashbacks" but they could be done as Lyanna's voice in his head or when he's hallucintaing/dreamin from his injured leg.
I'd have to read the books again but with the show in mind, as I don't know how much of the background knowledge is presented in the internal thoughts of the POV characters. I don't think a Dexter style commentary of their thoughts would work for AGOT live.

The loss of POV's thoughts could prove tricky. For instance how sympathetic does Tyrion come off as when we don't hear his inner thoughts? How much of a brat will several of the kids be? It could be tricky.

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Tower of Joy should get a flashback...Rheagar and Robert on the Trident...Jaime sitting on the throne with Ned riding in...maybe the conflict over Ashara Dayne...Tyrions first wife(I think he mentions her in the first book)...Catelyn remembering her growing up with Lysa and Littlefinger...

Thats like 5 or 6 flashbacks in 12 epizodes... thats not much...it can be done...

And regarding POVs thoughts...well I still dont get how are they going to do that...its especially important for Tyrion...without his inner thoughts viewers will think of him as just another Lannister...

I hope they will get it right...

Oh and one more thing about the Tower of Joy flashback...we HAVE to see the whole scene...its just to awesome not to end up on screen..."and now it begins"...they HAVE to show it

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The books are full of dream-like sequences (actual dreams, wolf dreams, Bran dreams, profecies, real memories). Many of those are pretty important plot-wise (Bran´s crow and Dany with the Undying are much more important then the TOJ scene). If the producers can assign a recognizable aesthetics (sp?) to those kind of sequences, there is no reason it can´t be used to show a couple of flashbacks as well. Cool flashbacks for the first season would include TOJ, Ned/Jaime/Iron Throne, and maybe Rhaegar dying. Only three. Used not for exposition, but for general mood, character definition and general prettyness on screen (breathtaking visual bits are important, too).

<START BABBLING>The epitome of awesomeness would be to film one long flashback and show it´s bits throughout the 7 seasons (first show Ned/Jaime, long after that show the previous minutes of Jaime/Aerys). The same way, first show Ned/Kingsguard, much later (7 season) Ned/Lyanna. <STOP BABBLING>

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I'm generally opposed to flashbacks myself, but I can see how they would be useful in a serialized version of AGOT. I agree with using them sparingly; too many would just be confusing. I think you need the audience to be generally aware of the events that lead to Robert on the throne, the antagonism between the Starks/Tullys and Lannisters, and Daenerys' exile. This good be acheived pretty easily I think with a character discussing the story on screen supplemented by short cuts to the important scenes that really capture those moments: Jaime turning on the king, Robert slaying Rheagar, Ned w/dying Lyanna and the vanquishing the remaining kingsguard.

I don't like the idea of the prologue scene being jettisoned in favour of a Peter Jacksonesque history lesson. It works when you have the audience expecting it and only deals with one event, ie the capture and loss of the Ring. Once you factor in the slaying of Rhaegar and his family, the exile of Daenerys, plus the dying wishes of Lyanna, I think you have too much information to try to compact into one storytelling flashback scene.

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I bet you could incorporate a lot of flashbacks into dreams, and if I remember correctly that actually did happen a couple of times in the book.

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[quote name='gippu' post='1615288' date='Dec 10 2008, 14.40']I bet you could incorporate a lot of flashbacks into dreams, and if I remember correctly that actually did happen a couple of times in the book.[/quote]

I'm finding myself strangely hostile to this idea. I think it's because of the Star Wars prequel-Trilogy; remember Anakin's sweaty, panting nightmares? I think the dreams would be an interesting way to start certain episodes - particularly Bran's dreams of crows and wolves.

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Every Flashback/dream:

[color="#ff0000"]EDDARD 1.5)(p44) 1/4p ext ruby ford flashback Robert kills Rhegar
DANY 1.2)(P30) 1/8p INT Kings landing Gregor kills Elia, daughter, and baby
DANY 1.3)(p30)1/8p Int Iron Chair Throne room Jaime kills Rhegar
EDDARD 10.1)(p424) 1 3/8 page Ext tower of joy (stolen from the beginning of edd 10) Ned and Friends Kill 3 Kingsguard
DANY 1.4)(p30)1/8p Int Dragonstone Dany's birth
DANY 1.5)(p31)1/4p Ext Dragonstone Darry smuggles Dany away
DANY 1.6)(p31)1/4p INT House with the RED DOOR and LEMONTREE. Willam Darry dies.
DANY 1.7)(p31)1/2p Ext Montage of merchant meetings Visceris and kid move around
eddard 1.5 (p44) 1/4p ext ruby ford flashback
CAT 2.2)(p65) Flashback Winterfell Ned brings home infant, maids talk of ashara dayne, cat asks in bed and gets shut down[/color]
DANY 3.2)(p227)1/4p Flashback Int Visceris vows to illyrio to stay with drogo till he gets what's his.
[color="#0000ff"]TYRION 2.4)(p121)1p Flashback to INT cellar with dragonskulls[/color]
[color="#ff0000"]TYRION 2.5)(p122)5/8p Flashback flashback EXT 3 great dragons Burning lannister armies in the field[/color]
[color="#2e8b57"]BRAN 3.1)(p160)3 7/8p DREAM Crow tells Bran he can fly[/color]
EDDARD 4.8)(p199)1/4p FLASHBACK:King talking about knives to Dany, Calling dead targs "war", Forcing Lady's execution
[color="#0000ff"]ARYA 2.2)(p217)5/8p Flashback Int Winterfell Hall Eating with dad in winterfell was cool "arya underfoot"[/color]
[color="#2e8b57"]BRAN 4.5)(p246)1/2p DREAM ext tower[/color]
[color="#0000ff"]EDDARD 5.3)(p255)1/4p Flashback Ext Tower of Hand Godswood Ned arya sansa hold vigil for BRAN.[/color]
EDDARD 6.4)(p276)3/8p FLASHBACK Renly shows Stannis picture of Margery
TYRION 4.2)(p325)2 3/8p Flashback Int THE INN
TYRION 4.3)(p327)1p Flashback Ext THE INN to the Eastern Road
[color="#ff0000"]EDDARD 9.3)(p379)1/4p flashback Winterfell Lyanna knows Robert's a houndog[/color]
EDDARD 9.4)(p380)5/8p Flashback Chataya's
BRAN 5.2)(p399)1/2p Flashback Robb Calls to reinforce Moat Cailin
TYRION 5.4)(p412)2 1/4p Flashback Int Eyrie Throneroom Tyrion Can't hold his tongue.
[color="#ff0000"]CAT 7.6)(p439)7/8p FLASHBACK BRANDON vs Littlefinger[/color]
SANSA 3.2)(p472)3/4p Flashback Steps from Throneroom
[color="#2e8b57"]EDDARD 13.1)(p501)1/4p Flashback Dream Int Winterfell Crypt[/color][color="#0000ff"]
ARYA 4.7)(p541)5/8p Flashback Int Winterfell Crypt ...remembers Jon covered in flour[/color]
SANSA 4.4)(p548)1/4p FLASHBACK Int Royal solar
BRAN 6.2)(p569)1/4p FLASHBACK Int Bran's Room
BRAN 6.4)(p569)1/4p FLASHBACK Int Winterfell Great Hall
BRAN 6.8)(p573)3/8p FLASHBACK Int Winterfell Crypt Rickon whines
BRAN 6.9)(p573)1 1/2p FLASHBACK Int Winterfell Great hall Robb controls his bannermen
BRAN 6.10)(p575)1/2p FLASHBACK Int Bran's room
BRAN 6.11)(p575)3/8p FLASHBACK Int Random stories of travelers
BRAN 6.12)(p576)1/4p FLASHBACK Int Master Luwin's solar
BRAN 6.13)(p576)1/2p FLASHBACK Ext lichfield[color="#ff0000"]
EDDARD 15.2)(p630)1p FLASHBACK Ext Harrenhall Tournament[/color]
[color="#2e8b57"]SANSA 6.2)(p741)3/8p DREAM Ned's Execution
DANY 9.1)(p751)2p DREAM[/color]

[color="#2e8b57"]DREAMS[/color] are in [color="#2e8b57"]GREEN[/color]
[color="#ff0000"]HISTORICAL[/color] flashbacks are in [color="#ff0000"]RED[/color]
[color="#0000ff"]RECENT[/color] flashbacks out of storyline are in [color="#0000ff"]BLUE[/color]
STORYLINE flashbacks are uncolored

I don't mind the flashbacks to the past, it's the flashbacks to the out of sequence storyline which just aught to be told in order.

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[quote name='Smoldering Hound' post='1616286' date='Dec 11 2008, 12.39']I don't mind the flashbacks to the past, it's the flashbacks to the recent past which just aught to be told in order.[/quote]
Excellent listing! I agree with you. I'm no expert but while glancing through your list it struck me that at least a few could be eliminated outright because we, the audience, saw them happen. Thus, I'm not sure they need to be "flashed back" to.

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[quote name='red snow' post='1614572' date='Dec 10 2008, 07.21']The loss of POV's thoughts could prove tricky. For instance how sympathetic does Tyrion come off as when we don't hear his inner thoughts? How much of a brat will several of the kids be? It could be tricky.[/quote]

As an example of how well that could work, Al Swearengen in Deadwood comes to mind. I Loved Swearengen from the beginning, but I hated some things he did. Granted, he monologued whilst being orally pleasured and he talked to a decapitated head in a box, but that shows there are ways of thinking "out loud".

Sandor was sympathetic enough as a non-POV character. Not gonna lie, part of his likability was in not knowing his thoughts.

As to flashbacks, I'd say they should use them wisely, sparingly, or not at all.

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