Howland Reed = Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Bormon]

I'm not sure if this has been covered, but I just got past the part in SoS where Bran hears the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. We all know its about the Tourney that starts the events that lead to Robert's Rebellion. But is Reed that knight that Meera is refering too? I never thought about it before, and wonder if this was something that everyone took for granted?

[legarous]

Oh, it's been discussed before. I haven't really formed an opinion, but the consensus from the last time this came up, I believe, was that it was either Howland, or Lyanna Stark, which would be cool.

[Lord Qyburn]

If you haven't yet finished ASOS I suggest you don't come back until you do, or you wil encounter HUGE spoilers without warning.

[Bran's Muffin]

I vote for Lyanna. Harwin said she was a good horsewoman (after Arya tries to run away). And Jaime said jousting was mostly horsemanship. And Howland wasn't familiar with horses being from the Neck.

[Bormon]

If you haven't yet finished ASOS I suggest you don't come back until you do, or you wil encounter HUGE spoilers without warning.

Sorry...should have said, I was re-reading SoS getting ready to read AFFC, so don't worry about spoilers with me, but thanks for thinking of it.

I vote for Lyanna. Harwin said she was a good horsewoman (after Arya tries to run away). And Jaime said jousting was mostly horsemanship. And Howland wasn't familiar with horses being from the Neck.

Hmmmmm.....I don't know. Obviously though, Howland got familiar with horses, since he rode with Eddard to the ToJ. I am thinking that Children of the Forest may have taught Howland much, and he used that knowledge to compete in the tourney, IMHO of course.

[Maia]

Hmmmmm.....I don't know. Obviously though, Howland got familiar with horses, since he rode with Eddard to the ToJ. I am thinking that Children of the Forest may have taught Howland much, and he used that knowledge to compete in the tourney, IMHO of course.

Well, he may have become familiar enough not to fall off during the war, but he was fresh out of the swamps at Harrenhal and you need to be a really good horseman to joust, according to Jaime (and he should know). There is also another hint that it could have been Lyanna in AFFC - nobody recognizes Brienne's voice as female when she talks with her greathelm on. But of course it could have also been Benjen, although in his case it is not clear why he should have disappeared. Even if he was eventually defeated and unmasked, this episode could have only brought him glory and reputation a la young Barristan Selmy.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I think there were a lot of clues that it might have been Lyanna. I doubt Rheagar failed to find the knight, and I think that was one of the reasons he named Lyanna the Queen of Beauty. Everyone talks about how well she rode, about how wild she could be, and I think at home she may have been indulged and allowed at least once in a while to train with her brothers. (when no onelse else was around, of course)

Look at Ned and Ayra, once he learns she has a sword and is trying to learn to use it, he arranges private lessons for her--Ned can be rather stern, but he does say how Ayra reminds him of his sister--it's not to much of a leap to assume Ned's father indulged his daughter the same way--in fact, I think it's a parenting lesson Ned may have learned from his father: some kids are wild and stubborn--better to harness it and teach properly than to crush it or risk them hurting themselves doing it anyways without any training.

[back_packn]

Bormon:

I think is supposed to make you think it was Howland, assisted by the Green Men, or the Old Gods. Personally, thought, it you read think about it, and look at all the clues, they seem to point to it probably being a Stark, and most likely Lyanna.

[jusme]

Well, he may have become familiar enough not to fall off during the war, but he was fresh out of the swamps at Harrenhal and you need to be a really good horseman to joust, according to Jaime (and he should know). There is also another hint that it could have been Lyanna in AFFC - nobody recognizes Brienne's voice as female when she talks with her greathelm on. But of course it could have also been Benjen, although in his case it is not clear why he should have disappeared. Even if he was eventually defeated and unmasked, this episode could have only brought him glory and reputation a la young Barristan Selmy.

I always felt that no one recognizes Brienne as female even without much armor on. Everyone seems to mistake her for a man no matter what, so her voice is probably a little more on the barritone side.

On the other hand, I always got the impression that Lyanna was pretty beautiful. I mean Rhaeger named her the Queen of Beauty, and he basically risked a kingdom to be with her (if R+L == true).

Plus just think about it, Martinworld defies our world in some small ways, but I think you can still tell a 5th percentile female voice from a male voice with a full helm on.

The clues do point to Lyanna, but the logic used thus far in this thread doesn't support it fully. It's more of an intuition for me at this point.

[Ashara Stark]

I think the most likely candidate for the KoLT is Benjen

Lyanna never received any training, as Ned says to Arya, and Howland didn't, either.

[Bran's Muffin]

I think the most likely candidate for the KoLT is Benjen

Lyanna never received any training, as Ned says to Arya, and Howland didn't, either.

I definately agree that Benjen is a possibility. But I wonder, if it was Benjen or Howland, why they didn't allow themselves to be unmasked. Lyanna is really the only one who had a reason to keep the identify of KotLT a secret.

[Bormon]

I think the most likely candidate for the KoLT is Benjen

Lyanna never received any training, as Ned says to Arya, and Howland didn't, either.

How old was Benjen at this time? I would think that if it was Benjen, he would wear the House Stark insignia. There really isn't a reason for him to hide his identity.

I think that this is where Reed and Ned first became friends. I wouldn't be suprised if Lyanna had a lot to do with convincing Reed to be the KoLT. I don't know, I would find it hard to believe that they wouldn't recognize Lyanna as a woman.

[Ashara Stark]

if it was Benjen or Howland, why they didn't allow themselves to be unmasked. Lyanna is really the only one who had a reason to keep the identify of KotLT a secret.

Strangerface, if it was Holwand you are right he had no reason to hide it.

But Benjen had a good reason to conceal his identity: it wasn't his feud, he was not jousting against those knights as a Stark but in Howland's stead

How old was Benjen at this time? I would think that if it was Benjen, he would wear the House Stark insignia. There really isn't a reason for him to hide his identity.

We don't know how old Benjen was, but I think he wasn't a knight yet and he couldn't enter the lists as Benjen Stark.

[back_packn]

We don't know how old Benjen was, but I think he wasn't a knight yet and he couldn't enter the lists as Benjen Stark.

Obviously they didn't check these things out too well...

[Bran's Muffin]

Strangerface, if it was Holwand you are right he had no reason to hide it.

But Benjen had a good reason to conceal his identity: it wasn't his feud, he was not jousting against those knights as a Stark but in Howland's stead

We don't know how old Benjen was, but I think he wasn't a knight yet and he couldn't enter the lists as Benjen Stark.

Howland wasn't a knight either. Nor was Barristan Selmy when he first entered the lists; he was a squire trying to earn his spurs. I don't think they regulate these things well. He couldn't enter the lists as Benjen Stark but after it was over he could have revealed himself.

I wish we knew how old Benjen was though. Meera's tale calls him the "Young Pup" which makes me think he was too young. But if that's just relative to the other siblings then it could still be possible.

[Ashara Stark]

He couldn't enter the lists as Benjen Stark but after it was over he could have revealed himself.

He could, but what I mean is that he didn't wanted to because he was not acting as Benjen Stark but in Holwland's stead.

He didn't wanted to be known as the mistery knight that defeated three knights, he didn't wanted glory for himself, he only wanted to restore Howland's honour and the squires to learn the lesson

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Wasn't Ben younger than Lyanna? She was still in her teens, recently betrothed (15? possibly) making Ben 13-14 yr old..not unheard of (Jaime was younger) but the Starks are solid steady fighters, not really known as tourney knights.

I've put on male armour and believe me, you'd never know I was a girl in there and I have LOTS of curves. Making your voice deeper isn't too hard, and it all sounds deeper and a little distorted from inside a helm. saying they'd recognize a girl isn't really true, and remember the armour didn't fit well.

[My Lady Ashalind]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Lyanna was accomplished at tourney swords and riding quiantin(sp) . Whether that was in forum or books I can't remember.

My guess is Lyanna.

[back_packn]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Lyanna was accomplished at tourney swords and riding quiantin(sp) .

Yep, you are correct. And it's in the books. It was poor little Lyanna who used a tourney sword to whip up on the three 15 year old squires who were beating up Howland.

[Moosicus]

Lyanna is the only one with a reason to hide her identity. Since she's a woman, if she had revealed herself, instead of teaching the squires a lesson she would have shamed (in front of everyone of note in the kingdom) the three knights she jousted against and made enemies of their houses. The point she was trying to make would be lost at that point I think.