Howland Reed = Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[oneeye]

I'd like to see a prequel with Lyanna, Rhaegar and Early Ned pov's. I think it'd be fun.

[Erryk the Reaver]

everything points to it being ned. the guy with the huge long post about it summed it up perfectly. plus, sometimes writers give their readers clues: "are you sure your father never told you this story?"

meera didn't ask if bran's uncle or aunt ever told him the story. plus, what better way to forge a friendship between ned and howland than by the events at this tourney.

everyone's entitled to an opinion, i just hope everyone remembers when the "neds" are proven to be right.

[Artanaro]

Besides, we have textual evidence that Lyanna a) had at least enough skill with a sword to scatter squires,

Squires are not champions and it's not too tough to scatter three men when you have a sword and they don't.

was a brilliant horsewoman (and horsemanship is apparently what jousting's mostly about) and c) was wild and somewhat tomboyish.

I think people are taking Jaime's quote out of context. I don't think he meant a great horse rider could go to a tourney, suddenly pick up a lance, and win a tournament. He means when you are wielding a lance, what determines whether you will win the tilt is how you maneuver your horse. To beat the three champions, she would need to practice with a lance, and practice alot. She probably didn't do that to a level comparative of southerners (especially with Rickard as a father).

We have no evidence that Ashara was in any prone to such stunts at all or had the skills to do so. Zip, zilch, nada.

Ahhh, but we have evidence Lyanna never had formal training. That is a clear disadvantage to the Lyanna theory, which Ashara doesn't have. So you must go against the evidence for Lyanna to make the theory work, while there's no contradictory evidence for Ashara (even some supporting evidence like the sandsnakes).

We do know Dornish noblewoman are more liberated than women in the rest of Westeros, but that liberty seems to consist mostly of inheritance rights and more sexual freedom. Other than the Sand Snakes, who are bastards, I'm not aware of any evidence that prominent Dornish noblewomen are trained in arms.

When Nymeria is the icon for Dorne, I think it's a good assumption that many noble ladies would be trained at arms.

And one point to add against the candidate being Ned or Howland Reed. You can't pick up a lance one day and beat three champions in a tourney. You must be quite proficient at the art. I can't imagine how a crannogman would joust in the swamps so that goes against Howland Reed. From Eddard's opinion on his own tourney, he seems to be very practical minded in his endeavors. Brandon Stark may have tried his skill with a lance, but I can't see Eddard doing that.

Artanaro

[Steve Moss]

And one point to add against the candidate being Ned or Howland Reed. You can't pick up a lance one day and beat three champions in a tourney. You must be quite proficient at the art. I can't imagine how a crannogman would joust in the swamps so that goes against Howland Reed. From Eddard's opinion on his own tourney, he seems to be very practical minded in his endeavors. Brandon Stark may have tried his skill with a lance, but I can't see Eddard doing that.

Ned is practical. Which is why he makes sure Jon and Robb are trained in the lance (and just about everything else a lord and warrior might need to know). If he had them trained with a lance, that indicates that he does not view the weapon as impractical, just that tourneys are frivoulous, serve no good purpose, and are largely a waste of time.[1]

There is nothing to indicate that Lord Rickard slighted Eddard's training with the lance, either.

[1] A world view shared by many medieval kings, lords, and knights, who were otherwise trained and well versed with the lance.

[Artanaro]

Ned is practical. Which is why he makes sure Jon and Robb are trained in the lance (and just about everything else a lord and warrior might need to know).

I remember them being trained in sword fighting, but I don't remember them being trained in jousting. Could you give me a reference? Much appreciated. Though I think it's a safe assumption both Jon and Robb would be trained on how to fight on horseback (Karstark kills Davon's father with a lance I believe). But to be a champion at jousting, you would need a significant amount of regular practice. Being trained with war lances would be quite different from tourney lances still. When Ned was raised at the Eyrie, his best friend, Robert, didn't seem to take to well to jousting, so I would think Ned wouldn't either. Beating three champions takes alot of skill and conditioning.

Artanaro

[Sandsnake]

Well, I did miss the quintain part. I read the question as her being skilled at riding. And wouldn't taking on 3 15 year old squires with a Tourney sword indication of some skill?

Maybe they knew it was Lyanna Stark and thought it was not manly to beat up a 14 year old girl.

As for the KotLT, I don't think it was Lyanna. Even if she was skilled at riding, could she unhorse 3 knights? Maybe 3 young squires, but not 3 knights who had been jousting since they were young boys.

[Scuba Steve]

meera didn't ask if bran's uncle or aunt ever told him the story. plus, what better way to forge a friendship between ned and howland than by the events at this tourney.

By the time that Bran was born, Brandon and Lyanna were dead, and Benjen had joined the Night's Watch, so it isn't suprising that Meera and Jojen didn't ask Bran if he heard it from his aunt or either of his uncles.

My vote's for the man himself, Howland.

Yes, the facts back up Lyanna, and possibly even Ashara, but Howland's just freakin' cool, so I'm hoping it's him.

[Lance_Work]

I remember them being trained in sword fighting, but I don't remember them being trained in jousting. Could you give me a reference? Much appreciated. Though I think it's a safe assumption both Jon and Robb would be trained on how to fight on horseback (Karstark kills Davon's father with a lance I believe). But to be a champion at jousting, you would need a significant amount of regular practice. Being trained with war lances would be quite different from tourney lances still. When Ned was raised at the Eyrie, his best friend, Robert, didn't seem to take to well to jousting, so I would think Ned wouldn't either. Beating three champions takes alot of skill and conditioning.

Artanaro

Your reply above contradicts your own theory that Ashara Dayne was the KotLT. Almost very argument you listed as evidence for discreditting Ned, Ben, Lyanna, etc also discredits Ashara. Funny, I don't remember Ashara being trained in sword fighting or jousting. Could you give me a reference? Oh, and since my best friend doesn't like chocolate cake, it's safe to assume that I don't either.

It is possible that she was the KotLT. I think it's highly unlikely though. In So Spake Martin, we are told that Martin gives us clues and hints to the mysteries in the series. There are no quotes or evidence from the books that would lead us to believe that Ashara ever trained with a weapon of any kind. We do have direct quotes that Lyanna was trained, if informally, with a sword and horse.

Do I believe it was Lyanna? No. Will I be surprised if it turns out to be Lyanna? Or Howland? Or Ned? Nope! I will be surprised if it is anyone else. And that's ok, I like Martin's surprises!

[Artanaro]

Wow, I'm starting to get to people, and it's usually commoners.

Your reply above contradicts your own theory that Ashara Dayne was the KotLT.

How so? I'll be glad to respond to any comments you make against my arguements.

Almost very argument you listed as evidence for discreditting Ned, Ben, Lyanna, etc also discredits Ashara. Funny, I don't remember Ashara being trained in sword fighting or jousting.

There is evidence about Dornishwomen being trained to fight. For the record there is also evidence about northern women being trained, but that evidence is canceled out by Ned's words about Rickard not allowing Lyanna to wield a sword. Also, it explains many facts of the story (why the KotLT must go in disguise, is wearing ill fittiing armor, appears short). Another point about Lyanna, Ned doesn't think Lyanna ever wielded a sword. Does that mean Lyanna never told Ned about her role as KotLT (though a lance is not a sword)? In the story Ashara is described as the girl with "laughing purple eyes". Knight of the Laughing Tree? Eyes? Tree? Meera (or Howland Reed) probably knew who it was and so gave clues. I stand by my case.

There are no quotes or evidence from the books that would lead us to believe that Ashara ever trained with a weapon of any kind.

I've given lots of evidence to support my case. But feel free to believe whatever you like.

Artanaro

[Roland of Gilead]

It had to be Varys. Knowing that Rheagar needed to get w/Lyanna, he came to the tourney. Using his already highly developed skills at deception and manipulation, he was able to bring off the pairing w/out a hitch. The only mystery to me is how he handled the lance so well. You know, since he couldn't have had much experience w/"lances".

[Faceless Man]

It had to be Varys. Knowing that Rheagar needed to get w/Lyanna, he came to the tourney. Using his already highly developed skills at deception and manipulation, he was able to bring off the pairing w/out a hitch. The only mystery to me is how he handled the lance so well. You know, since he couldn't have had much experience w/"lances".

He recieved training from Renly and Loras...

[Roland of Gilead]

So you mean like skiing, right? Loras and Renly are a little young though. How about the Blackfish.

[Grant Dempsey]

There is evidence about Dornishwomen being trained to fight.

Wasn't it said that the Sand Snakes were still more an exception than the rule, even in Dorne? By Tyrion Lannister at some point?

For the record there is also evidence about northern women being trained, but that evidence is canceled out by Ned's words about Rickard not allowing Lyanna to wield a sword. Also, it explains many facts of the story (why the KotLT must go in disguise, is wearing ill fittiing armor, appears short). Another point about Lyanna, Ned doesn't think Lyanna ever wielded a sword. Does that mean Lyanna never told Ned about her role as KotLT (though a lance is not a sword)?

I'd repeat that a lance is not a sword. Rickard Stark may not have objected to his daughter training in jousting, given that she was already a skilled horserider as well, but just drew the line at swords.

I would agree with Ashara Dayne as another significant possibility, but I believe the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna Stark. It fits the chain of events at the tournament, from her scattering the squires attacking Howland Reed to Rhaegar Targaryen being told to find the mysterious knight and then naming Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty after becoming the champion himself. The weirwood design on the Knight of the Laughing Tree's shield also suggests to me that it was a northerner. We know Lyanna Stark was a skilled horserider and, just for things to fit here, I wouldn't consider it impossible that her lord father had agreed to let her train at jousting while still refusing her a sword.

[Roland of Gilead]

Here's a possible scenario: Lyanna starts to learn the sword. I'd say there's a good chance of Brandon, being so impetuos, could be a good candidate for her teacher. She's then caught by her father, who becomes angry and forbids her to continue her lessons. Lyanna, being so loved by her brothers, is able to convince one or more of them to continue teaching her in secret. Of course, all of this is pretty much pulled from the dark confines of my ass, but you never know where you're gonna find the truth, do ya?

[NYC Falcon]

I remember them being trained in sword fighting, but I don't remember them being trained in jousting. Could you give me a reference? Much appreciated. Though I think it's a safe assumption both Jon and Robb would be trained on how to fight on horseback (Karstark kills Davon's father with a lance I believe). But to be a champion at jousting, you would need a significant amount of regular practice. Being trained with war lances would be quite different from tourney lances still. When Ned was raised at the Eyrie, his best friend, Robert, didn't seem to take to well to jousting, so I would think Ned wouldn't either. Beating three champions takes alot of skill and conditioning.

Artanaro

Jon made a comment about being better than Robb at the sword, but Robb being better with horse.

I assumed horse meant lance as well.

Wasn't it said that the Sand Snakes were still more an exception than the rule, even in Dorne? By Tyrion Lannister at some point?

I'd repeat that a lance is not a sword. Rickard Stark may not have objected to his daughter training in jousting, given that she was already a skilled horserider as well, but just drew the line at swords.

I would agree with Ashara Dayne as another significant possibility, but I believe the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna Stark. It fits the chain of events at the tournament, from her scattering the squires attacking Howland Reed to Rhaegar Targaryen being told to find the mysterious knight and then naming Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty after becoming the champion himself. The weirwood design on the Knight of the Laughing Tree's shield also suggests to me that it was a northerner. We know Lyanna Stark was a skilled horserider and, just for things to fit here, I wouldn't consider it impossible that her lord father had agreed to let her train at jousting while still refusing her a sword.

Lord Rickard may not have had her trained, but Ned could have trained her. The two of them seem connected just as Jon and Arya are connected.

Lesson 1 stick them with the pointy end.

[Artanaro]

Wasn't it said that the Sand Snakes were still more an exception than the rule, even in Dorne? By Tyrion Lannister at some point?

Well, the Sand Snakes are exceptions to many rules, but I don't think Tyrion would have reason to comment on their sword fighting abilities.

I'd repeat that a lance is not a sword. Rickard Stark may not have objected to his daughter training in jousting, given that she was already a skilled horserider as well, but just drew the line at swords.

A lance is not a sword, but it is still a weapon. Rickard may view quintains as different from jousting with another person, but the logic for refusing to let Lyanna to train with a sword remains the same for wielding a lance (at another person) in the case of Rickard. Here's another question. Because Brandon (and Ned) were not given this same restriction, shouldn't it be a good assumption they would be better than Lyanna? Even if Lyanna was decent, Brandon would make the better choice to face the three champions (strength, ability to practice at Winterfell). If the list of candidates is only the Starks and Howland Reed, Brandon is the best case here.

The weirwood design on the Knight of the Laughing Tree's shield also suggests to me that it was a northerner. We know Lyanna Stark was a skilled horserider and, just for things to fit here, I wouldn't consider it impossible that her lord father had agreed to let her train at jousting while still refusing her a sword.

When a knight wants to win the favor of a girl, wouldn't it be common to wear some emblem or piece that symbolizes they are fighting for that person. How would it be different for a girl, Ashara, to show that she's fighting for Ned by wearing a symbol he holds dear, the weirwood.

Really the evidence that decides me in the case is this. The best candidate from the Starks is not Lyanna, it's Brandon. However, northerners are at a disadvantage when it comes to tournaments since they're not popular in the north. So Ashara Dayne makes more sense that she's the lone candidate not from the North. Dornishwomen in general don't have the same restrictions Rickard placed upon Lyanna. So in order to best these three champions, she is the best person who explains the rest of the facts from the story.

Artanaro

[Artanaro]

Jon made a comment about being better than Robb at the sword, but Robb being better with horse.

I assumed horse meant lance as well.

Thank you, I was wondering about that early quote referenced. We have evidence northmen fought with lances, so you are probably right. Still, a tourney lance is different from a war lance, as described in The Hedge Knight. My point in saying that is even the best northerner probably (though still quite possible) can't just pick up a tourney lance and beat three champions.

Lord Rickard may not have had her trained, but Ned could have trained her. The two of them seem connected just as Jon and Arya are connected.

Here's the question I have here though. The logic behind why a woman shouldn't wield a sword in a martial society is similiar to why a woman shouldn't wield a lance. The role of women in society is not to fight but bear children and take care of the home (not all northerners subscribe to this belief, but it seems Rickard does). So I can't see why Rickard would let her train for fighting on a horse, when he wouldn't let her use a sword (something far less dangerous to train with).

Now you make the point that Ned could perhaps have trained her. When he's talking to Arya, he says something along the lines that Lyanna would have wielded a sword, if their father (Rickard) had let her. I think this is a strong arguement that she didn't train to Eddard's knowledge, so neither Brandon, Ned or Benjen disobeyed their father's command. So if they wouldn't do it for sword fighting(something much easier to conceal), wouldn't they do the same with jousting?

Artanaro

[Steve Moss]

I remember them being trained in sword fighting, but I don't remember them being trained in jousting. Could you give me a reference? Much appreciated. Though I think it's a safe assumption both Jon and Robb would be trained on how to fight on horseback (Karstark kills Davon's father with a lance I believe). But to be a champion at jousting, you would need a significant amount of regular practice. Being trained with war lances would be quite different from tourney lances still. When Ned was raised at the Eyrie, his best friend, Robert, didn't seem to take to well to jousting, so I would think Ned wouldn't either. Beating three champions takes alot of skill and conditioning.

Specifically, when Jon is talking to Benjen in "A Game of Thrones" [hardback, page 44]:

"Jon swelled with pride. 'Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I'm the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.'"

I interpret that comment to mean that Jon and Robb were going beyond occassional training with the lance. Jon specifically uses the weapons "lance and sword" as equivalent counter-points, one favoring Jon and the other Robb. Thus, as was true with medieival knights (and those of Westeros), their training with both weapons was extensive.

[Artanaro]

Excellent. Thanks stevem. I miss my copy of AGOT.

Artanaro

[Maia]

OK, to clear a misconception - Lord Rickard wouldn't allow Lyanna to _wear_ a sword. Considering that Robb also wasn't allowed to wear one until Ned left to KL (Cat specifically notices that he is wearing live steel for the first time when she comes to after attack on Bran) , this tells us little and less about her training.

Re: northern disdain of tourneys, IMHO it is something of a misdirection. IIRC only Ned disliked them, and given that his family's tragedy began at one, it isn't surprising. I imagine that given huge distances and thin populace, it is just more difficult to organise them in the North. But Theon remembers taking part in a northern tourney, so they do exist .

Re: Brandon he couldn't have been KOTL because he was taller than Ned and around 20 at the time. Also, there was no reason for him to drop out after 3 knights or in fact to joust incognito. He did later joust as himself, remember, and Rhaegar unhorsed him. The same applies to Ned (who is of average frame, but not short), with addition that a _laughing_ tree wouldn't fit him at all.

IMHO, Benjen and Lyanna are the ónly likely possibilities. Both were short comparatively to other participants, both couldn't enter openly under their own identitities, both were keen to see Howland's slight avenged (IIRC Benjen offered to procure equipment for Howland). It doesn't make sense for Benjen to cease after 3 victories, however. Even though he would have been eventually defeated and unmasked, this episode would have brought him nothing but glory. And yes, northeners can be as much hungry for glory as anybody. Jon was at a similar age.

Also, we have neon hints in AFFC that a woman's voice wouldn't be recognised as such as long as she had a greathelm on, that horsemanship is 3/4 of jousting success, etc. Not to mention that the whole "Rhaegar sent to look for the KoTL, Rhaegar ends up with Lyanna" makes a lot more sense if she was KOTL.