Howland Reed = Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[mormont]

Sorry, this post is gonna be long, but this is one of my favourite debates.

I'll give you the punchline now though: I personally am more certain that Lyanna is the KotLT than I am of any other theory except R+L=J. In fact, I would bet real money on it.

This is not to say that there are not strong arguments for other candidates. That's why I like this topic: there are. Some of them have been made already. Forgive me if I recap some in the course of this post.

Basically, the list of candidates is not long. Ben, Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, Howland, and Ashara (which is a new twist to me, congrats to whoever came up with that. )

Now, the list is limited to these because it has to be someone who knows about Howland's being attacked, knows who did it, and actually cares. That's the first thing we know about the KotLT: that his aim was to teach these squires a lesson. These people are the only credible candidates for that.

The second thing we know is that the KotLT was someone who needed or chose to appear in disguise. This causes huge problems for any theory that it was Brandon, Howland or Ned. There is simply no reason why they would need to disguise themselves, and in Brandon's case no reason he would want to either. It seems highly likely from what we know of him that he would have taken action as himself, if he wanted to do so.

Ben suggests that Howland enter as himself, so clearly it was possible he could enter: he could argue that the Children of the Forest somehow required the anonymity in return for magical aid, though. Ned can argue modesty, of course. Even Ben could arguably have entered as himself (his age seems to be borderline, maybe 13). Only a woman would definitely have been barred from doing so.

The third thing we know is that the KotLT did not have his own armour. He cobbled together a suit. It's unlikely in the extreme that anyone would have done this just for disguise: it's far too dangerous and handicapping. Besides, most armour is not distinctive enough (sans helm and shield) to give away identity.

Again, Brandon suffers most. He clearly had his own armour. Ned and Ben, if not expecting to participate, might not have brought armour, though we can at least conclude that they owned armour. Lyanna, Ashara and Howland definitely had no armour. But Ben is the one who suggests cobbling together a suit for Howland. In story terms, therefore, it works best if it's someone connected to Ben, which Ashara is not.

The fourth thing we know is that the KotLT took a laughing weirwood as his symbol. This suggests two things: connection to the North and vivacity. The first is a strike against Ashara, though Artanaro (IIRC) has an ingenious solution to that. The second is a strike against Ned. Laughing ain't his thing.

The fifth thing is that the KotLT is 'small of stature'. Once again, Brandon takes a heavy hit. (It really isn't Brandon, you get the feeling. ) Ned is not notably small either. He would be almost fully grown at that time, and wielding a greatsword is not something a man 'small of stature' would be able to do.

Okay, fifth thing, and this is a crucial one. The KotLT is not only wearing a disguise, he's disguising his voice. (None of the candidates have a 'booming voice' naturally: therefore we can conclude this safely.)

Why would any of the male candidates need to disguise their voice in this fashion? Nobody would recognise Howland's voice whatever happened: this is a big strike against him. For the rest of the males, the greathelm would distort their voices beyond easy recognition anyway, and they already have recognisably male voices. Only someone who did not have a distinctively male voice would need to put on a 'booming' voice as a disguise.

Now, the sixth thing is the one where people usually insist it couldn't be Lyanna: the KotLT was good enough to win three jousts. On this one, all I'm going to add is: if we take Brandon and Ned out, this counts equally for all the candidates.

(I think the earlier discussion of the Mormonts missed the crucial point, btw: Dacey Mormont is a female warrior of about the same build as we could expect of Lyanna or Ashara, and fights well. Yes, she's had training and there are arguments that the latter two have not, but she does provide an example of a slight (non-Brienne) woman who wins fights against bigger male opponents.)

So, what do we have left? Good evidence for Ashara and Lyanna and less good evidence for Ben and Howland.

Which is where I leave what we know about the KotLT and turn to the 'story' evidence... in another post.

[mormont]

Okay, turning to the 'story evidence':

The basic argument here is, what purpose does the whole story serve in each case? Not so much 'why is Meera telling it to Bran', nor even 'why do the Reeds expect Bran to know it and why didn't Ned tell him it': we can come up with answers to that in each case. Whoever the KotLT was, Ned didn't like talking about Lyanna and that is sufficient answer, because the story involves her.

No, the question is: why is GRRM telling it to us? Why is it in the book at all? What significance does it have to the story, other than background detail?

If the story is about Brandon - well, I can't see why GRRM would tell us it. Brandon is dead. And we are told elsewhere everything we need to know about him.

If the story is about Ned: again, what does it tell us that we don't already know?

If the story is about Ben - see above.

If the story is about Ashara, it tells us she was strong and fierce. Could have been done some other way though. And it really doesn't link to anything else in the books.

If the story is about Howland, arguably it gives us an indication of how powerful the Children of the Forest are, if it was supernatural aid that made him the KotLT. Not much else though.

But if the story is about Lyanna... then, it explains why Rhaegar gave her the crown of love and beauty, publicly humiliating his wife over a woman he barely knew. He did it because he knew she was the KotLT, and wanted to recognise her as the 'true' winner. It also explains what Rhaegar saw in Lyanna: something more than beauty, her spirit and bravery, and why therefore he might feel she was the one to give birth to the PwwP. It explains why GRRM is telling us this story: it's crucial background for the whole R+L=J theory.

Nothing else fits the story half as well.

Now for the one bit I can't figure out: why did Aerys declare that the KotLT was his enemy?

[Grant Dempsey]

Now for the one bit I can't figure out: why did Aerys declare that the KotLT was his enemy?

Well, Aerys Targaryen was not a rational man anyway. Still, I imagine it just got to his temper; a mystery knight appearing on the second day of his tournament to shame three knights for the sake of "teaching them a lesson in honor".

Good post(s), by the way.

[mormont]

Grant: thank you, but they are the result of a LOT of arguing and thinking about the topic.

On Aerys, I'd disagree that he was not 'rational': mad is not irrational, though he was certainly mad.

I have wondered whether there was some kind of political subtext to what the KotLT did, whether perhaps it was being said that chivalry was dead under Aerys or something. Or whether one of the knights was an ally of Aerys. Or maybe it's just that he disliked having his thunder stolen.

[Grant Dempsey]

On Aerys, I'd disagree that he was not 'rational': mad is not irrational, though he was certainly mad.

Eh, I'd call him irrational in his madness. His paranoia was extreme enough that he allowed his fingernails to grow to near (or over) a foot long and his hair to go completely tangled and ungroomed for fear of blades in his presence, and himself to nearly starve for fear of poison. Its impact on his life was beyond just his cruelty and pyromania. I'd say certain extreme reactions and decisions of his may just not have entirely logical reasoning behind them.

Indeed, though, I was thinking that he may have just taken offense to this small mystery knight presuming to shame -- and give a lesson in honor to -- others in the middle of his tournament, particularly if he took it (or if others spoke of it) as some insult against his reign.

[Bormon]

Wow, a lot to take in. I am now pretty firmly convinced that the KoLT is not Howland, I believe it it one of two people. Either Lyanna or Ned.

Moromont summed up the arguments well.

Moromont, your argument really points to Lyanna. But there are some holes in the argument against Ned.

Ned is described as the "Quiet" wolf. Ned had no intention of entering the tourney. It seems to me that he doesn't really get pumped up for them. But faced with an affront to one of the Starks bannermen's honor...he gets Ben to help him find pieces of armor.

Ned, would hide because 1. he is not doing this for any glory, and does not even want any. 2. If he fails does not want to "shame" the rest of his family.

Finally the "booming" voice thing. Remember he was known as the "quiet" wolf in the story. He wanted to make sure he got his point across, a it is another way to hide his identity, because no one would think he could "boom"

[mormont]

Bormon: agreed. But Ned still has two problems. One, he is not slight and small as the KotLT is said to be. Two, the 'story' argument: having Ned be the KotLT makes no 'story sense' compared to having it be Lyanna. Lyanna's strongest argument is that the KotLT story explains so much if it is her.

[Bormon]

Bormon: agreed. But Ned still has two problems. One, he is not slight and small as the KotLT is said to be. Two, the 'story' argument: having Ned be the KotLT makes no 'story sense' compared to having it be Lyanna. Lyanna's strongest argument is that the KotLT story explains so much if it is her.

Hmmmmm......Ned could have appeared small and slight due to the ill fitting armor? (OK, a stretch, you got me on this one )

As far as the story contribution. It also tells the tale of how Howland and Eddard become close friends. And while doing that it still begins the tale that may support the whole R+L=J thing.

[mormont]

Yeah... but the Lyanna version explains the crown of roses. The Ned version still leaves us wondering why Rhaegar, even if he had for some reason fallen in love with this girl he'd hardly spoken to, chose to publicly declare it at considerable political and personal cost. The idea that he did it, not out of love, but for honour and to recognise her valour, works much better.

[Rockroi]

I agree with Mormont.

[Artanaro]

Yeah... but the Lyanna version explains the crown of roses. The Ned version still leaves us wondering why Rhaegar, even if he had for some reason fallen in love with this girl he'd hardly spoken to, chose to publicly declare it at considerable political and personal cost.

Ok, this is something that bugs me about why people choose Lyanna as the KotLT. The arguement is, if Lyanna isn't the knight, then Rhaegar has no reason for falling for her. I don't buy this. Lyanna is described as being attractive and willful, both traits many guys like in girls. In Dany's vision Rhaegar mentions his child is "the song of ice and fire." Ice is a clear association with the Starks. So if Rhaegar wants to have a son of his be both ice and fire, he needs to knock up a Stark.

Using the roses arguement is along the lines of thinking that Lyanna is the KotLT and then use every detail in the story to make sense of that arguement. There are many other reasons to crown Lyanna as the queen of love and beauty. Also, this arguement is based on the assumption Rhaegar found out who the mystery knight was after the person disappeared. I don't think there is evidence to support this assumption.

I promise to address your other points later when I get some free time.

Artanaro

[Steve Moss]

Excellent reasoning Mormont. You have almost talked me out of believing that Ned is the KotLT. Almost. I think it almost certain, now, that its either Ned or Lyanna.

[NYC Falcon]

Bormon: agreed. But Ned still has two problems. One, he is not slight and small as the KotLT is said to be. Two, the 'story' argument: having Ned be the KotLT makes no 'story sense' compared to having it be Lyanna. Lyanna's strongest argument is that the KotLT story explains so much if it is her.

Actually, Ned is described as being smaller than Brandon. So it's possible at the time of the Harrenhal tourney he was small.

[Grant Dempsey]

The arguement is, if Lyanna isn't the knight, then Rhaegar has no reason for falling for her.

I don't think that's the argument, so much as that the theory of Lyanna Stark as the Knight of the Laughing Tree would just explain how the two got to talking in the first place and why Rhaegar Targaryen was affected so much by her in however little time they had before then to name her Queen of Love and Beauty...as well as contribute a bit of additional drama to the R+L=J (or R+L=?) situation.

[mormont]

NYC Falcon: 'smaller than Brandon' is not 'small'. Sandor is smaller than Gregor, but he's still big.

Ned uses a greatsword as a weapon in battle. As I said: a small, slight man could not do this.

Artanaro: read more closely what I wrote, you seem to be answering the point you think I made rather than the one I made.

My point about the crown is not that Rhaegar could not have fallen for Lyanna without her being the KotLT: naturally, he could. It is that, even if he had, he has no reason to signal this by publicly presenting her with the crown as a token of his love in front of everyone who's anyone in Westeros.

It's political suicide. He's snubbing his wife, and thereby making enemies of the Martells: and enraging Robert, and thereby making enemies of the Baratheons. That's not love, or infatuation: that's lunacy. And nothing we know about Rhaegar suggests he is that kind of idiot. It makes no sense unless he has another motive as well.

[NYC Falcon]

Sorry, this post is gonna be long, but this is one of my favourite debates.

I'll give you the punchline now though: I personally am more certain that Lyanna is the KotLT than I am of any other theory except R+L=J. In fact, I would bet real money on it.

This is not to say that there are not strong arguments for other candidates. That's why I like this topic: there are. Some of them have been made already. Forgive me if I recap some in the course of this post.

Basically, the list of candidates is not long. Ben, Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, Howland, and Ashara (which is a new twist to me, congrats to whoever came up with that. )

Now, the list is limited to these because it has to be someone who knows about Howland's being attacked, knows who did it, and actually cares. That's the first thing we know about the KotLT: that his aim was to teach these squires a lesson. These people are the only credible candidates for that.

<BIG snip>

So, what do we have left? Good evidence for Ashara and Lyanna and less good evidence for Ben and Howland.

Which is where I leave what we know about the KotLT and turn to the 'story' evidence... in another post.

Wow!

You make a great many assumptions based on what "we know" when in fact we know very little.

As to a description of Ned and Brandon I can only remember Catelyn's description (the one she thinks about while talking to Jaime) which I suggest you re-read.

As to armor, we know he/she/it had access to armor and possibly knew how to correctly put it on by themselves. (See Ned's thoughts on Hugh of the Vale)

As to voice, I have never met a teenage girl with a "booming voice". And, I've met a few with BIG voices.

We have NO evidence for Ashara, and only the scantest for Lyanna (she drove off the squires). Which doesn't mean they weren't the KotLT, but to say there's good evidence is preposterous.

NYC Falcon: 'smaller than Brandon' is not 'small'. Sandor is smaller than Gregor, but he's still big.

Ned uses a greatsword as a weapon in battle. As I said: a small, slight man could not do this.

Did he use a greatsword in battle? I know that Ice is a greatsword, but he didn't come into ownership until after his father's and brother's death. Am I wrong?

[NYC Falcon]

Okay, turning to the 'story evidence':

<BIG snip>

But if the story is about Lyanna... then, it explains why Rhaegar gave her the crown of love and beauty, publicly humiliating his wife over a woman he barely knew. He did it because he knew she was the KotLT, and wanted to recognise her as the 'true' winner. It also explains what Rhaegar saw in Lyanna: something more than beauty, her spirit and bravery, and why therefore he might feel she was the one to give birth to the PwwP. It explains why GRRM is telling us this story: it's crucial background for the whole R+L=J theory.

Nothing else fits the story half as well.

Now for the one bit I can't figure out: why did Aerys declare that the KotLT was his enemy?

Don't dismiss the power of attraction. "Love enter through the eyes."

What you haven't asked yourself is why can't it be Lyanna? How could Rhaegar know and yet almost all the knights go out looking for this unknown knight?

I'm not saying any one person is definitely IT. But, there is the likelihood of it being either an apparition/manifestation from the Children of the Forest, Ned or Lyanna.

Again, when you ask yourself which one can't it be based on what is written and apply that with the circumstantial evidence for and individual, you will end up with a likely candidate.

[mormont]

NYC:

You make a great many assumptions based on what "we know" when in fact we know very little.

Oh really? Well feel free to point out any holes in these assumptions. OTOH, you could just throw that out there and leave it as if you had actually made a point...

As to a description of Ned and Brandon I can only remember Catelyn's description (the one she thinks about while talking to Jaime) which I suggest you re-read.

*sigh* I have, thanks. Nothing in it suggests that Ned is as small as the KotLT is. However, my argument against Ned is not primarily based on his size. It doesn't rule him out, as I said. It just counts against him a little. *shrugs*

As to armor, we know he/she/it had access to armor and possibly knew how to correctly put it on by themselves. (See Ned's thoughts on Hugh of the Vale)

Not sure of your point here. Nothing I said contradicts this.

As to voice, I have never met a teenage girl with a "booming voice". And, I've met a few with BIG voices.

Have you met any that could fake a booming voice with the aid of a greathelm? Because that's the relevant question.

Even if you had not... the argument from realism is not very strong, because it assumes that the author agrees with your impression of realism. Which is to say that if GRRM believes Lyanna could put on a booming voice (or beat three knights in a joust), whether this is realistic matters not a whit. That's why I give the story arguments more weight.

Which doesn't mean they weren't the KotLT, but to say there's good evidence is preposterous.

Well, I disagree. *shrugs again* And so do others, it seems... all depends what you think qualifies as 'evidence' I guess.

Did he use a greatsword in battle? I know that Ice is a greatsword, but he didn't come into ownership until after his father's and brother's death. Am I wrong?

You're not wrong... but again, read more closely. In the first post I pointed out that Ned presumably wielded Ice in the war (ie after Brandon and Rickard's death), but that he could not have grown that much since Harrenhal since it was only a short time later. Yes, these are assumptions. They're fairly safe ones IMO.

But again... it's not Ned's size that rules him out, for me. It's that the story of the KotLT itself, and the overall story of ASOIAF, make more dramatic sense if the KotLT is Lyanna. That kind of argument can't force agreement, but it can persuade. And it persuades me. If it doesn't persuade you... fine.

[Steve Moss]

You're not wrong... but again, read more closely. In the first post I pointed out that Ned presumably wielded Ice in the war (ie after Brandon and Rickard's death), but that he could not have grown that much since Harrenhal since it was only a short time later. Yes, these are assumptions. They're fairly safe ones IMO.

Do we know that wielded Ice in the rebellion? Presumably it was in possession of Lord Rickard when he was executed, so it may be that he recovered Ice at the end of the war. Unless Jamie remembers Ned having it in the throne room scene or Ned recalls wielding it aginst Arthur Dayne, neither of which I recollect.

[My Lady Ashalind]

I don't buy this. Lyanna is described as being attractive and willful, both traits many guys like in girls. In Dany's vision Rhaegar mentions his child is "the song of ice and fire." Ice is a clear association with the Starks. So if Rhaegar wants to have a son of his be both ice and fire, he needs to knock up a Stark.

Artanaro

I know I am taking this a litttle out of context, but Dany's vision doesn't help or hinder this argument. In the vision Rhaegar refers to his son Aegon as the PWWP and his is the song of ice and fire. this is the child belonging to him and Elia.

Whether RT rethinks things later on is possible.