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Andhaira

Kissed by Fyre!

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Ok we know about Mel's "You know nuttin' jonny boy" line, which implies a connection between her and Ygritte's similar routine.

Now how could she know this comment?

To figure that out I thought about other paralells between Mel and Ygritte. Lets see, Ygritte had red hair (kissed by fire), Melisandre just loves fire and also the color red, and is called the red woman. So what does this mean? I can only presume the following possibilities, and with your help we can figure out which works and which doesn't:

1)Mel can warg into red headed women? :wideeyed:
2)Mel was spying on Jon Snow via scrying from the beginning. But why would she?
3)Mel can scry back in time actually, and she did that once got to the wall and heard stuff about Jon Snow (that he was a stark and a warg)
4)Mel = Ygritte!

Out of all the above only option 3 appears to make some sense. Basically Mel can see the past in her fires as well as the future. But that makes you wonder, if she can look into the past regarding any person, does that mean she could go back and look at Jon's birth? And figure out who his real parents are, assuming they are not Ned and Wylla?

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Where is Mel's "You know nuttin' jonny boy" line?

It's possible, of course, that Mel was just saying that as a put-down to Jon. There might not be a connection with Ygritte.

Ygritte is dead and Mel isn't, so I think that lets out #4.

How would knowing Jon's a Stark and a warg connect her to Ygritte?

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1614882' date='Dec 10 2008, 13.10']Where is Mel's "You know nuttin' jonny boy" line?

It's possible, of course, that Mel was just saying that as a put-down to Jon. There might not be a connection with Ygritte.

Ygritte is dead and Mel isn't, so I think that lets out #4.

How would knowing Jon's a Stark and a warg connect her to Ygritte?[/quote]

Its in the Jon spoiler chapter. I just soprano-ized it a bit. ;) Furthermore knowing Jon is a warg, a stark (aka has first men blood in his veins which would interest mel since she is REALLY into who-has-what kind-of-blood-in-his/her-veins...wow I just realized mel is not someone you want to run into in a dark alley) So she decides, "hmm, why don't I check out the fires and see who this jon guy really is?" So she snoops around, scrys on Jon while he takes his showers, and then what he has been doing over the last coupleof months, etc)

Say, could someone run over the books and compare Mel's and Ygritte's facial features? What if they really were related (say maybe Mel was born a wildling from the same tribe ygritte was...but was sent to the east to learn magic)

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1614882' date='Dec 10 2008, 13.10']Where is Mel's "You know nuttin' jonny boy" line?[/quote]


That line is from Jon's sample chapter in ADwD. It is currently available on GRRM's official website. Mel says it to Jon at the end of their conversation. I don't think that it necessarily means there is a connection between Mel and Ygritte. It could be a coincidence, or Mel heard that saying in her fires.

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Andhaira,

I think your third scenario is along the right lines. Personally, I think Mel said those words in that specific way to Jon on purpose. She's a seductress, first and foremost. I think she saw Yggritte and Jon in her fires and saying that to Jon is simply an initial minor attempt to "soften him up" for future advances. I also think you're right when you say that Mel can see the past, present and future in her fires. However, I don't think that Mel necessarily always knows whether what she's seeing is in the past, present or future.

I think that's why we get her misguided attempts to wake a "dragon from stone" using king's blood and sorcery. Sure she probably has the prophecy but I think she vaguely "saw" the birthing of Dany's dragons somewhere along the line and, perhaps not realizing that it has already happened, is trying to make it happen now.

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[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1614963' date='Dec 10 2008, 20.04']However, I don't think that Mel necessarily always knows whether what she's seeing is in the past, present or future.

I think that's why we get her misguided attempts to wake a "dragon from stone" using king's blood and sorcery. Sure she probably has the prophecy but I think she vaguely "saw" the birthing of Dany's dragons somewhere along the line and, perhaps not realizing that it has already happened, is trying to make it happen now.[/quote]

This is interesting. The eggs were always descirbed as stones wern't they... But then didn't Dany (maybe somneone else) hear this prophesy after the brith of the Dragons?

With regards to Mel=Ygritte. I don't thiank that's likely. I'm sure through the whole Ygritte/Jon period, Mel was off with Stannis taking his blood and plotting to kill his bastard nephews.

Of course i could be entirley worng. I don't have the books to check any of this out :)

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It says in the same spoiler chapter that basically she can see past. present, and futur.

[quote]My fires show me much and more, Jon Snow. I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth in the darkness of men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days[/quote]

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='DomDayne' post='1614981' date='Dec 10 2008, 14.17']This is interesting. The eggs were always descirbed as stones wern't they... But then didn't Dany (maybe somneone else) hear this prophesy after the brith of the Dragons?[/quote]
Dany has never heard the prophecy, as far as I am aware. The other characters who have mentioned it (mostly in Stannis' camp) were unaware of Dany's feat, so it wouldn't have coloured their phrasing. Only Aemon connected the dots wrt Dany, and very late.

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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1615003' date='Dec 10 2008, 13.36']Dany has never heard the prophecy, as far as I am aware. The other characters who have mentioned it (mostly in Stannis' camp) were unaware of Dany's feat, so it wouldn't have coloured their phrasing. Only Aemon connected the dots wrt Dany, and very late.[/quote]

Perhaps this confusion comes from the fact that we, the readers, never hear of the prophecy until A Clash of Kings, after the dragons are born in A Game of Thrones.
I think this suggests that GRRM may have expanded the scope of the Targaryen backstory to indirectly link it to the War of the Dawn (and therefore the Others) after A Game of Thrones was completed. Or maybe that's just what he wants us to think...

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I'm not 100% sure where i got it from. I think it most likely was on the boards, so i might have been tainted by other posts ???

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Jakob Lightbringer' post='1615055' date='Dec 10 2008, 15.27']I think this suggests that GRRM may have [b]expanded the scope of the Targaryen backstory to indirectly link it to the War of the Dawn[/b] (and therefore the Others) after A Game of Thrones was completed. Or maybe that's just what he wants us to think...[/quote]
I'm not sure what exactly you mean? Backstory? Indirectly linked how? I believe the forestory will be linked to the second round, but it's not clear that the early Targaryens had anything to do with the original War for the Dawn. As ever, the relationship between the triumvirate of the Last Hero, Azor Ahai, and the Prince who was Promised remains shrouded in mystery. The first is a figure solely from the past and the third is a figure solely from the future, afaict.

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[quote name='The_Hound' post='1615002' date='Dec 10 2008, 13.36']It says in the same spoiler chapter that basically she can see past. present, and futur.
[quote name='Quote']
My fires show me much and more, Jon Snow. I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth in the darkness of men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days.[/quote]
[/quote]
So says Mel of herself - and I don't trust her at all. I have no doubt she can see a great many things in the flames. The real trick is knowing just what those things mean and not just what she wants them to mean ;)

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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1615206' date='Dec 10 2008, 15.59']I'm not sure what exactly you mean? Backstory? Indirectly linked how?[/quote]

The prophecy of Azor Ahai links Dany (and indirectly the Targaryen Dynasty) to the original War of the Dawn.
The first men and Westeros are already linked to the War of the Dawn via their alliance with the Children. The story of Azor Ahai may serve the purpose of linking other lands and peoples to the War of the Dawn. Consider that it isn't until A Clash of Kings that we begin to hear about this prophecy and various character's involvement and interpretation of it.
There is, I think, some likelihood that GRRM used these additional backstory elements to expanded the War of the Dawn mythology of Westeros, as presented in A Game of Thrones, into a more global myth.

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Can we get back on topic plz? 'k thx.

IMO the link between Ygritte and Mel is very important IMO. Comeon guys, Ygritte had red hair that seemed to be 'Kissed by Fire'. Melisandre is the RED woman. And then suddenly Mel starts mouthing Ygrittes lines! Also, both Mel and Ygritte were introduced in book 2!

Thats huge! It shows GRRM wanted there to be a connection between Mel and Ygritte and Jon Snow, otherwise Ygritte would just have been a black/blonde haired lass. SO basically GRRm planned this from Book 2 at the very least!

Another interesting connection: Ygritte was with Orell when he was killed and his spirit/consciousness warged into the eagle (aka Orell). Melisandre not only recogonized the eagle for what it was,but she also destroyed it. :)

But in the end, what does it all mean? Are these scenes simply included to show off Melisandre's power? Or was it just to find a way for Mel and Jon to get together?

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As I posted in another thread or two: if you want to know what Kissed by Fire actually means, look at Beric Dondarrion.

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Or perhaps it was to tease inquisitive readers into asking these very questions.
If Mel isn't personally aware of Yigritte's words and her similarly colored hair, then I would bet that the author, at the very least, is.
It could be just some kind of karmic coincidence, I suppose.
Or maybe Jon Snow's just the kind of dunce that attracts quips like "You know nothing..."

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[quote name='Jakob Lightbringer' post='1620321' date='Dec 15 2008, 23.15']The prophecy of Azor Ahai links Dany (and indirectly the Targaryen Dynasty) to the original War of the Dawn.
The first men and Westeros are already linked to the War of the Dawn via their alliance with the Children. The story of Azor Ahai may serve the purpose of linking other lands and peoples to the War of the Dawn. Consider that it isn't until A Clash of Kings that we begin to hear about this prophecy and various character's involvement and interpretation of it.
There is, I think, some likelihood that GRRM used these additional backstory elements to expanded the War of the Dawn mythology of Westeros, as presented in A Game of Thrones, into a more global myth.[/quote]

Isn't it more likely that it'll just be Like Christianity and Christmas? i mean That the Rhollor religon stole the past war to gain credit and legitimacy

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[quote name='Branfangd' post='1624262' date='Dec 18 2008, 10.37']Isn't it more likely that it'll just be Like Christianity and Christmas? i mean That the Rhollor religon stole the past war to gain credit and legitimacy[/quote]
Maybe. If you don't believe that Azor Ahai or the Price that was Promised are for real that's much easier to buy.
But some people (perhaps even the author -- I'm thinking specifically about his revelation that the stories of the Prince that Was Promised and Azor Ahai are about the same person) speak about these things frequently with the assumption that they are at least actual psuedo-historical personages (within the context of the story), if not reliable prophecies.
For instance, if you believe Dany is Azor Ahai reborn, then its difficult to say that the Targaryens aren't at least indirectly linked to the War of the Dawn via that prophecy. And I don't believe there can be any doubt that GRRM doesn't at least want us to consider the possibility that Dany is Azor Ahai.
That isn't to say that Azor Ahai isn't sombody else ... or nobody else (as it could be completely superstitious). But I think it's fairly obvious that GRRM wants us to make that connection -- a connection that did not exist in A Game of Thrones -- but was strongly built up during A Clash of Kings (and later books to a lesser extent) through the story of Azor Ahai, the visions at the House of the Undying, the revelation that Rhaegar was obsessed with the Prince that Was Promised, etc.

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[quote name='Jakob Lightbringer' post='1624693' date='Dec 18 2008, 14.21']Maybe. If you don't believe that Azor Ahai or the [b][u]Price[/u] that was Promised [/b]are for real that's much easier to buy.
But some people (perhaps even the author -- I'm thinking specifically about his revelation that the stories of the Prince that Was Promised and Azor Ahai are about the same person) speak about these things frequently with the assumption that they are at least actual psuedo-historical personages (within the context of the story), if not reliable prophecies.
For instance, if you believe Dany is Azor Ahai reborn, then its difficult to say that the Targaryens aren't at least indirectly linked to the War of the Dawn via that prophecy. And I don't believe there can be any doubt that GRRM doesn't at least want us to consider the possibility that Dany is Azor Ahai.
That isn't to say that Azor Ahai isn't sombody else ... or nobody else (as it could be completely superstitious). But I think it's fairly obvious that GRRM wants us to make that connection -- a connection that did not exist in A Game of Thrones -- but was strongly built up during A Clash of Kings (and later books to a lesser extent) through the story of Azor Ahai, the visions at the House of the Undying, the revelation that Rhaegar was obsessed with the Prince that Was Promised, etc.[/quote]

You see, I alsways thought that Jon Stark (Snow) will be AA and the PWWP, because his connection to House Dayne (through his mother) together with his accomplishments (LC of the NW is a high honor, after all) will earn him the title Sword of the Morning, and Grant him the right to weild Dawn (a sword that I believe actually will ignite in the presence of Others). Add to that the fact that he is a Stark, and the Kings of the North are the ones that built the wall when the Others were defeated the first time, and it just seems like a logical connection all the way around.

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[quote name='Jakob Lightbringer' post='1624693' date='Dec 18 2008, 21.21']Maybe. If you don't believe that Azor Ahai or the Price that was Promised are for real that's much easier to buy.
But some people (perhaps even the author -- I'm thinking specifically about his revelation that the stories of the Prince that Was Promised and Azor Ahai are about the same person) speak about these things frequently with the assumption that they are at least actual psuedo-historical personages (within the context of the story), if not reliable prophecies.
For instance, if you believe Dany is Azor Ahai reborn, then its difficult to say that the Targaryens aren't at least indirectly linked to the War of the Dawn via that prophecy. And I don't believe there can be any doubt that GRRM doesn't at least want us to consider the possibility that Dany is Azor Ahai.
That isn't to say that Azor Ahai isn't sombody else ... or nobody else (as it could be completely superstitious). But I think it's fairly obvious that GRRM wants us to make that connection -- a connection that did not exist in A Game of Thrones -- but was strongly built up during A Clash of Kings (and later books to a lesser extent) through the story of Azor Ahai, the visions at the House of the Undying, the revelation that Rhaegar was obsessed with the Prince that Was Promised, etc.[/quote]


The True last hero (who Later Rhollor's religon named AA) was a First man and follower of the Old Gods


When the Red priests took the events of the past and tried to Portray it in favorable light they Changed the name and religon of the LH with these alterations they continued to tell the story,

I'm not saying that the First AA did not excist because he did under the name LH what i'm saying is that he was not a follower of Rhollor he didn't weild a Magic sword of Fire that gave off heat

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