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Andhaira

Kissed by Fyre!

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Branfangd' post='1625901' date='Dec 19 2008, 15.19']The True last hero (who Later Rhollor's religon named AA) was a First man and follower of the Old Gods[/quote]
I'm not at all convinced that these two are the same person. It seems quite possible that AA round one may have fought back the darkness in the Shadowlands, rather than on the opposite side of the world. It's like saying some figure in an Icelandic saga and a hero in a Polynesian myth are based on the same historical figure. It stretches credulity for me, at least without some more background connections established.

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There is a theory in the "hinges of the world" thread where people speculate that there are actually 2 forces that creeps up on the world from two directions.

I will expand on that theory here. The two evil forces comes from both the Land of Always Winter and from the Shadow by Asshai, the battle for the Dawn took place on two fronts.

In which case the Last Hero won the battle against the Others in Westeros, and AA won the battle against the Shadow on the other side. AA may well be a ancestor of the Valyrians, and there is speculation that the Last Hero was the ancestor of the Starks. You can even drawn a parallel between the Night Watch and the Shadow Binders, perhaps they are two organizations that were both founded to keep watch for the return of the enemy.

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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1625974' date='Dec 19 2008, 21.09']I'm not at all convinced that these two are the same person. It seems quite possible that AA round one may have fought back the darkness in the Shadowlands, rather than on the opposite side of the world. It's like saying some figure in an Icelandic saga and a hero in a Polynesian myth are based on the same historical figure. It stretches credulity for me, at least without some more background connections established.[/quote]


Could be aside from the point that mel has stated that the Others are the servents of the Great other

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i think the Op has just found out a way by which Jons true lineage will be discovered.

By Melissandre looking into the past in the fires.

I have no doubt that her repeating Yggryte words was at the same time a lovers message to him and bitter sweet warning as he really knows very little.
She may also wanted to tell him that she knows something he doesnt - maybe his ancestry.

She already knows Stannis is not the one, she knows his lightbringer is fake because she made it.


She and Yggrite are not related in any way (that would be just to cheesy for a writer of martins caliber) but she might be playing on her general likeness to Yggryte to win him over eventually.

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The Starks and Targaryens built the wall during the age of heroes. The Targaryens from Dragonstone helped Brandon the builder to put the spells in the wall that kept the others away. They mention this in one of the Stannis chapters about how the dragons at dragonstone were sealed in their current state by the same spells that were put in the wall. I can't remember if it was a davos chapter or another pov. They also talked about how Roberts sucession was stronger because hes the descendant of a Targaryen Bastard only four generations ago. I Imagine the Starks and Targaryens married during the age of heroes and were close allies during the first war with the others. This is just my own opinion due to what I've read.

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The Starks and Targaryens built the wall during the age of heroes. The Targaryens from Dragonstone helped Brandon the builder to put the spells in the wall that kept the others away. They mention this in one of the Stannis chapters about how the dragons at dragonstone were sealed in their current state by the same spells that were put in the wall. I can't remember if it was a davos chapter or another pov. They also talked about how Roberts sucession was stronger because hes the descendant of a Targaryen Bastard only four generations ago. I Imagine the Starks and Targaryens married during the age of heroes and were close allies during the first war with the others. This is just my own opinion due to what I've read.

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[quote name='cerankoman' post='1669258' date='Jan 31 2009, 14.23']The Targaryens from Dragonstone helped Brandon the builder to put the spells in the wall that kept the others away. They mention this in one of the Stannis chapters about how the dragons at dragonstone were sealed in their current state by the same spells that were put in the wall. I can't remember if it was a davos chapter or another pov.[/quote]
I don't recall anything like this. Though there is a chapter in which Sallador Saan mentions the story that the stone dragons of Dragonstone were once live ones and rubbishes it. The Targaryens were apparently been at Dragonstone only for a relatively short time before Aegon the Conqueror, a few hundred years at most.

It does seem that the Starks may well have been involved in the building of the Wall though. According to Westeros legend it was indeed built by the founder of the Stark line, Bran the Builder (who, according to another story, also helped with the building of Storms End).

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='cerankoman' post='1669258' date='Jan 31 2009, 09.23']The Starks and Targaryens built the wall during the age of heroes. The Targaryens from Dragonstone helped Brandon the builder to put the spells in the wall that kept the others away. They mention this in one of the Stannis chapters about how the dragons at dragonstone were sealed in their current state by the same spells that were put in the wall. I can't remember if it was a davos chapter or another pov. They also talked about how Roberts sucession was stronger because hes the descendant of a Targaryen Bastard only four generations ago. I Imagine the Starks and Targaryens married during the age of heroes and were close allies during the first war with the others. This is just my own opinion due to what I've read.[/quote]
Almost everything in this post is wrong.

Dragonstone was the westernmost outpost of Valyria; Targaryens weren't running around Westeros during the Age of Heroes intermarrying with Starks or building the Wall. And Robert's Targaryen ancestry was from a trueborn daughter of Aegon V. The spells used in building dragonstone were used to create the lavish gargoyle and dragon sculptures with molten stone instead of hammers and chisels; there's no indication of any magical protection to it at all.

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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1669426' date='Jan 31 2009, 13.21']Almost everything in this post is wrong.[/quote]
I think cerankoman has mistakenly amalgamated Melisandre's description of Storm's End -- possibly built by Bran the Builder or the Children of the Forest using similar spells of protection to those which guard the Wall -- with Dragonstone. Dragonstone is not that old.

This might imply a relationship between the Storm Kings (Storm's End) and the Starks and the Children of the Forest (Winterfell / The Wall) during the Age of Heroes -- for instance, one might go so far as to speculate that the romance between the Storm King Durran and his wife Elenei, and the relentless assault of her parents, the Sea God and the Wind Goddess might somehow be related to the pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men or perhaps with the War against the Andals.

However I think the Targaryens are still safely entrenched in the post-Valyrian era, for now.

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This is what I believe abot the Last Hero and AA:

When the Others first emerged, and their winter fell upon the land, the lands of Men were swiftly overcame. The Last Hero (whoever he is) found the Children of the Forest and persuaded them to help. Now, let us look through the eyes of the primitive First Men, and compare them with the primitive humans of our World. The early Europeans and some Native Americans believed that spirits and gods inhabited all things. All that was beyond their control was influenced by either (a) malevolent of benevolent deity(dieties).

The Others were/are an outside force, a freak of nature, and their sorcereries were far beyond any control of Men. AND, they could make the very dead rise up and fight for them. The First Men looked at this and saw the work of a dark spirit or god. A warrior arose among the realms of Men, who used bloodmagic (if you could called Nissa Nissa's sacrifice that) to forge a sword of fire that would destroy the Others.*

This hero, along with others, rallied the forces of Man and Children to beat back the Others and their leader. A shamann/wizard, Bran the Builder, rose the Wall and wove it with spells that would keep back the Others.

Since the leader of the Others had been personified as a god, once the seer (or seeress) saw into the flames and realized that a warrior such as Azor Ahai would come again, they saw THIS as the work of a god. But, this god gave them hope through his flames and warning. They worshipped this god, and built up a religion around the concept and the prophecy. Word spread, and this religion grew, seemingly with a lot of proof behind it. Their HAD been a darkness in the West, their HAD been a warrior that helped save them, and their HAD been a vision. It all fitted!

It has been suggested by another on the Fourms that Azor Ahai actually means Last Hero, which I wouldn't be surprised about.

As to Mel being Ygritte...really? I mean, seriously, really?? It's OBVIOUS, not to mention COMMON SENSE, that Mel saw that in the flames.

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But the connection between Mel and Ygritte...both have red hair. Add to that why the bloody hell mel would be scrying Jon that early when she had probably not even heard of him yet.

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I would imagine that him being the Lord Commander of the NW (which means he has some power even if it's not a whole lot) would by itself warrant some looking into. Information is power, and Mel is Stannis's "master of spies." Therefore, she must know what's going on before others to be useful. Another reason might be that Stannis asked her to do it.

Plus, knowing stuff before others also helps her keep the "sexy, powerful, red sorceress" image that she has going for herself.. :P

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I think it's pretty clear she scried Jon after he became the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

I dont know, I think she probably did it a long time ago. I dont think she tells Stannis everything, atleast thats what it felt like from her and Jons conversation.

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What possible reason could she have for scrying on a person not just commander of the NW before she'd even met or heard of him AND before she'd arrived at the Wall (I'm taking your "long time ago" as before either of those things happend. Please correct me if I'm wrong)??

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Yea, I think the earliest that Mel could have looked into her fires about Jon would be around the time that Stannis offered him Winterfell.. because that is when Jon would have become important to Stannis's/her plans. Either that or when Jon was elected Lord Commander.

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But the connection between Mel and Ygritte...both have red hair. Add to that why the bloody hell mel would be scrying Jon that early when she had probably not even heard of him yet.

Except that Mel has said that she can see the past in the flames. (and the future as well) as shown by this quote:

My fires show me much and more, Jon Snow. I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth in the darkness of men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days

She obviously then scryed Jon's past after she became interested in him at whatever point. QED

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You can't always believe what people say.. especiially people who happen to be able to birth shadow babies, light things spontaneously on fire, and lie to kings that they are chosen warriors, and then make swords for them to further the liie.

While I don't doubt Melisandre can see much in her flames, I think its foolish to *trust* anything she says (about herself especially) as fact.

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Certainly Melisandre may lie, but she picked up the "you know nothing" phrase she says to Jon from somewhere, and from her flames seems the most likely source.

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