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Andhaira

Kissed by Fyre!

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The best way to lie is to throw some truth in there :P.

Um....what's the actual lie in this case then? If you're not contesting that she can see the past in her flames, based on the evidence that she knew of that phrase somehow?

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The two major problems with this theory are

A) Mel and Ygritte would have to be in two places at once, AND Ygritte has her whole backstory in the Wildling Clans, and it would be impossible for Mel to fake all of it.

B) The theory is plan ridiculous.

And I'm not going to even MENTION the fact that we've seen Ygritte die, or bring up the questions of why she would even go up there in the first place OR fuck Jon OR take her focous away from her "AAR" King.

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What's the lie? We don't know if anything she said was true. She could have completely pulled it out of her ass, and then threw "You know nothing" in at the end to make it seem believable... which is not to say that she did. Just saying its a possibility, and 100% trusting what she says is not a very good idea.

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I think more than likely she just saw something in her flames some how... It could just be a coincidence, but unlikely... I think she's toying with Jon, because I think she's amused by Jon. So I wouldn't be surprised if she used her flames to watch him.

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Something that just struck me, though someone else may have expounded on it before, is that the nature of red-heads being "kissed by fire" and linked to Rhllor (with an apostrophe somewhere in there) is very consistent. Mel serves him, Beric was brought back to life via his powers and Catelyn became UnCat through, literally, being kissed by fire when Beric gave her the "kiss of life". Who's next? Sansa?

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^Now that you mention it, there does seem to be a connection...

As to the whole "why would Mel have scryed on Jon?" -question, why do you all assume that she can decide what the flames show her? I always assumed that this flamescrying thing is a bit like the dreams Jojen has: the visions just come, and all the recipient can do is try to interpret what they mean. Mel could have seen a glimpse of Jon ages ago without knowing who he was or why he was important enough to appear in her flames. It would certainly explain why she seemed to take an interest in Jon before he even became LC.

More mundane explanation is that she questioned some of the black brothers, and got the whole story of Ygritte's death from Satin. Including her last words.

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As to the whole "why would Mel have scryed on Jon?" -question, why do you all assume that she can decide what the flames show her? I always assumed that this flamescrying thing is a bit like the dreams Jojen has: the visions just come, and all the recipient can do is try to interpret what they mean. Mel could have seen a glimpse of Jon ages ago without knowing who he was or why he was important enough to appear in her flames. It would certainly explain why she seemed to take an interest in Jon before he even became LC.

I agree with you Golden Owl. Interpretation is key to both Melisandre's views of the fires and Jojen's dreams. Jojen had a dream that Winterfell would drown and figuratively it did drown beneath a tide of Ironborn. What if Melisandre had seen, in her fires, Stannis casting down the seven and therefore sought him out - believing him to be AA; where it was important for Melisandre to go to Stannis so that more men are in the North to fight the Great Other. If Melisandre had not gone to Stannis it is possible he would not have won the fight against Renly, nor would the friction between herself and Davos sent Stannis to the wall (because he would be dead).

What if she saw Ygritte whisper that line in her visions and is only now realising that she has been misguided - that she was brought to the wall to help Jon and not Stannis to fight the Others. I hope this is what her POV would reveal.

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i think the Op has just found out a way by which Jons true lineage will be discovered.

By Melissandre looking into the past in the fires.

I have no doubt that her repeating Yggryte words was at the same time a lovers message to him and bitter sweet warning as he really knows very little.

She may also wanted to tell him that she knows something he doesnt - maybe his ancestry.

Let's take this a step further, and let me throw my own CrackPot theory into the mix.

Melissandre does see that Jon is Rhaegar's son. That means the blood of the "true" king runs through him. This makes him next on the pyre in her quest to wake a dragon One has to wonder, however, why hasn't she seen Dany's dragons? I see this as how his parentage is revealed and yet another moral conundrum for Stannis.

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We have absolutely no idea how old Mel is. Is it possible that Ygritte is Mel's daughter? (Did she mention her parents at all?)

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I think it is very unlikely that Mel is Ygritte, or Ygritte's mother or that there is some other sort of family connection:

They look totally different. Even Jon thinks that Ygritte has a face that would be described as "common" at court. Ygritte has a teeth gap and is smaller than Jon and Jon is not the biggest of men (he has normal height).

Melisandre is very beautiful, with a heart shaped face and long legs that make her nearly as big as Stannis. And we know that Robert, Renly and Stannis are all described as large men. Mel is bigger than most knights at Stannis court.

Then there is the color of the hair. Melisandre doesn't have the hair of normal red haired people like Ygritte (copper/orange/auburn) but real full red hair. Mel also has red eyes, Ygritte doesn't.

In fact Mel looks really disturbing, but also very beautiful. I think her appearance is a result of her R'hollor worshipping.

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In fact Mel looks really disturbing, but also very beautiful. I think her appearance is a result of her R'hollor worshipping.

I think Melisandre's appearance is a magical illusion, a glamour. She's a seducer and, thus, must make herself look seductive. I take absolutely nothing about her at face value. In my opinion, Mel's appearance seems like what someone would come up with after asking themself "How would/should a Fire God worshipper look?" ;)

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*g* Mel is dead. An undead like unCat or Beric, only she did not die viólently and was resurrected within seconds, so her appearance did not suffer. She has the red eyes, like Cat, the heat of having fire in her blood (Beric's blood can burn like wildfyre), she is impervious to cold, unaffected by poison...

We do not really know what the results of such a resurrection are when done right - Beric was a fluke and Cat was not intended. Maybe it's even a ritual thing, where some of the most powerful priests of their inner circle give their lives to be resurrected with special abilities... And why would she need the life of a man she couples with for her shadows, if she could just use her own. And this resurrection is of course a fiery kiss. :bowdown:

[/crazy theorizing]

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Nice theory.

I was always thinking that the Ruby at her throat protected her against poison. Dany is using a similar gem in Quarth for the same reason.

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*g* Mel is dead. An undead like unCat or Beric, only she did not die viólently and was resurrected within seconds, so her appearance did not suffer. She has the red eyes, like Cat, the heat of having fire in her blood (Beric's blood can burn like wildfyre), she is impervious to cold, unaffected by poison...

We do not really know what the results of such a resurrection are when done right - Beric was a fluke and Cat was not intended. Maybe it's even a ritual thing, where some of the most powerful priests of their inner circle give their lives to be resurrected with special abilities... And why would she need the life of a man she couples with for her shadows, if she could just use her own. And this resurrection is of course a fiery kiss. :bowdown:

[/crazy theorizing]

That's an awesome theory! :eek:

I was wondering why Mel would have red eyes and crazy body heat, and always assumed it was just the whole R'hllor worship thing, but then I couldn't figure out why Thoros wouldn't have the same attributes despite being able to do the same things... I could only think that it was some kind of glamour, similar to Faceless Man glamour, but then that seemed to confuse things more for me... But this, this makes sense.

(Also as we have seen from the drownings of the Drowned Men, "What is dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" etc, it's not the first time a religious order would be killing people and "bring them back" again, both symbolically and with practical purpose)

Definitely something to think about anyway. Thanks!

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*g* Mel is dead. An undead like unCat or Beric, only she did not die viólently and was resurrected within seconds, so her appearance did not suffer. She has the red eyes, like Cat, the heat of having fire in her blood (Beric's blood can burn like wildfyre), she is impervious to cold, unaffected by poison...

We do not really know what the results of such a resurrection are when done right - Beric was a fluke and Cat was not intended. Maybe it's even a ritual thing, where some of the most powerful priests of their inner circle give their lives to be resurrected with special abilities... And why would she need the life of a man she couples with for her shadows, if she could just use her own. And this resurrection is of course a fiery kiss. :bowdown:

[/crazy theorizing]

I like this theory! Mel's beauty could still be "magically enhanced" or it could simply be coincidence. Either way I like your theory :thumbsup: I also theorize that Coldhands is/was a dead brother of the NW (most likely Ben Stark) who was "kissed by fire", so to speak. Only he would have been dead for awhile in the cold north so frostbite would have begun setting into his extremeties, etc.

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Guest Other-in-Law

*g* Mel is dead. An undead like unCat or Beric, only she did not die viólently and was resurrected within seconds, so her appearance did not suffer. She has the red eyes, like Cat, the heat of having fire in her blood (Beric's blood can burn like wildfyre), she is impervious to cold, unaffected by poison...

[/crazy theorizing]

This theory has been raised before. Another bit in support of it is the discrepancy between Mel's pale white skin and the description of the Asshai'i in Vaes Dothrak as "dark and solemn". It's not clear whether the dark refers to Asshai'i skin or to their hair, but if it's their skin then hers may have gotten paler from death.

Also the only two people who have definitely been brought back by the Last Kiss have had red hair, so she's a viable candidate on that score.

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*g* Mel is dead.

[/crazy theorizing]

I think that is a great theory. I'd also like to point out to people referring to coldhands as "kissed by fire" that there can and probably is more than one type of resurrection in ASOIAF universe. It seems likely that the Others' method, the R'hllor method and possible the Children's method (if coldhands is indeed an undead messenger of the Children).

Back on the topic of Melisandre and Ygritte. I think it is very possible that Ygritte's whole purpose (by GRRM, not some god or other force in book) was to soften John up before he meets with Melisandre. I don't think it is clear what will happen when John and Melisandre clash but it is obvious there will be a lot of angst from emo John about how he has broken his vows and bla bla. On Melisandre's end, it doesn't really matter if she is consciously manipulating something she figured out or is just a natural seductress, either way she is going to be a love interest and foil for John. I doubt that even if we get a POV from Melisandre we will figure much out about how the fires work. GRRM likes to obscure magic in the series, and I think that it is possible that Melisandre will seem a lot more human and less in control than she did before there was a POV. I believe this is a theme for Martin. Make someone seem inhuman then give them a POV and show all their flaws/human aspects.

Also, I don't think we will find out right away even if Melisandre is some form of undead.

And I think the idea of Melisandre and Ygritte being related is crazy.

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While I think the Mel = Ygritte = smoking crack, I have enjoyed some of the latter theories about Mel being a love interest for Jon or Mel being undead. Thanks, you made me much more interested in reading Mel's POV when it comes out.

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