Dany's Boy

[Krafus]

the silent speaker;

[quote]Arya is also repeatedly associated with Lyanna, and the blue rose has other associations with House Stark besides Lyanna (the Bael the Bard story comes to mind). Anyway I dispute the consensus view of that vision and maintain that Jon appears in it, but as the wall of ice and not the blue flower (which correct me if I'm wrong wasn't even identified explicitly as a rose in the first place).[/quote]

Arya may be associated with Lyanna a few times, but as far as I know, she (Arya) isn't associated with blue roses or flowers in general, and it would IMO make more sense for Jon, who would be Lyanna's child if R+L=J is true, to be represented by a blue flower than Arya, who is just Lyanna's niece.

As for the specific wording of that part Dany's vision, it's "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness" and is the last of a trio associated with the bride of fire part of the vision - which to me means the husbands or lovers she'll have before the series is done since the first part of that trio of vision clearly represents Drogo. As to you disputing the view that this part of the vision represents Jon, you are of course free to do so.

Branfangd;

[quote]Yes Jon is a representation of the Wall But no where has he been associated with the Winter Rose, I said Arya Because although Catelyn's Daughter she is the person who inherited her (lyanna) Wild wolf Ways she shares the majority of parralls with lyanna the only character represented by the Winter Rose

Using thye winter Rose as the sole pillar to claiming that Jon for Dany is as fullproof as me saying Rickon will be her man cause he's dangerous and has blue eyes,[/quote]

I admit, my post was based on the assumption that R+L=J is true, which would make Jon the son of Lyanna. I find the evidence in favor of that theory much more compelling than the evidence against, and that's after eight years of debating it. It's not a watertight theory by any means, but it's a lot more plausible IMO than your Rickon suggestion. Besides, if R+L=J is indeed true, at least two other factors will IMO play in Jon's favor. First, Dany clearly idolizes Rhaegar, so I believe she'll want to have his son by her side and to get to know him, bastard or not. Second, with Dany herself barren, Jon would represent a possible future for House Targaryen, another reason for Dany to be interested in him.

Even if we grant that, since R+L=J is yet unproven, Arya currently has more associations with Lyanna than Jon, it's certainly Jon who is the character most frequently associated with the Wall, and Arya doesn't look to be headed that way anytime soon.

AHackeySackOfIceAndFire (real mouthful of a name, btw;));

See above. Like I said, my prediction that Dany will fall for Jon is admittedly mainly based on R+L=J being true. But even if it is, and Dany develops feelings for Jon, it doesn't mean that Jon will initially return them. In fact, given that Jon worships the old gods, who like the new ones believe that incest is an abomination, I expect Dany will have to do some convincing before Jon reciprocates.

[Auburn Dragon]

I'd like to throw another combo out there:

Jon--Dany-- Alleras/Sarella

If Dany is actually barren it makes sense for her to pair up with another person with ovaries in her marriage. Sarella is clearly into looking like a guy too, so that may aid in the sexy 3 way fantasy playing out in everyone's mind.

Also, to go along with HackeySack's kick in the face theory-- what's better than a celibate lord of the wall and a barren dragon queen having a baby? Using a female maester of the citadel to do it. :-D

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Arya may be associated with Lyanna a few times, but as far as I know, she (Arya) isn't associated with blue roses or flowers in general,[/quote]
Neither is Jon. The only reason to associate either of them with that vision is by way of Lyanna, and Arya is associated with Lyana a fair bit more than Jon is.
[quote]it would IMO make more sense for Jon, who would be Lyanna's child if R+L=J is true, to be represented by a blue flower than Arya, who is just Lyanna's niece.[/quote]
That's circular, though. You're arguing that the flower is Jon because he's Lyanna's son, and you're arguing that he's Lyanna's son because he is represented by Lyanna's flower.

Meanwhile Arya is [i]indepedently[/i] linked with Lyanna in text, not just as her niece but as someone with the same temperament and the same sensibilities and some of the same skills (riding, not so much with the homicide) and she looks just like her. And Jon is not linked with Lyanna in any of those ways except looks, and that at one remove. (Nobody says Jon looks like Lyanna; everybody says Jon looks like [i]Ned[/i]. We know that Lyanna looked a lot like Ned, so we can infer the similarity, but in terms of who Jon is [i]associated[/i] with in terms of appearance, it's Ned he's tied to, and Lyanna is remoter.)

And Jon is [i]independently[/i] described in Bran's vision as his heart getting ever colder, which sounds an awful lot like metaphorically wrapping himself in a wall of ice. I see no reason to insist the wall of ice must be bludgeoningly literal when prophecies so seldom are and there's an elegant metaphorical meaning ready to hand.

[the silent speaker]

Double post, ignore.

[Krafus]

thesilentspeaker;

[quote]Neither is Jon. The only reason to associate either of them with that vision is by way of Lyanna, and Arya is associated with Lyana a fair bit more than Jon is.[/quote]

As far I as remember about Arya being associated with Lyanna, Ned notes that Arya has "the wolf blood" like Lyanna and is the only person who says Arya looks like Lyanna, and Harwin notes that she rides well, as did her aunt. That's all.

[quote]That's circular, though. You're arguing that the flower is Jon because he's Lyanna's son, and you're arguing that he's Lyanna's son because he is represented by Lyanna's flower.[/quote]

Not quite. I'm saying that I believe R+L=J to be true, and the blue flower vision is part of the evidence in favor of that. Also, I'm saying the flower represents Jon because of the wall of ice, and Jon is the character most associated with that location.

[quote]Meanwhile Arya is indepedently linked with Lyanna in text, not just as her niece but as someone with the same temperament and the same sensibilities and some of the same skills (riding, not so much with the homicide) and she looks just like her. And Jon is not linked with Lyanna in any of those ways except looks, and that at one remove. (Nobody says Jon looks like Lyanna; everybody says Jon looks like Ned. We know that Lyanna looked a lot like Ned, so we can infer the similarity, but in terms of who Jon is associated with in terms of appearance, it's Ned he's tied to, and Lyanna is remoter.)[/quote]

Going all the way from sharing a few personality traits and riding skill to believing that the blue flower represents Arya because of Lyanna is too big a stretch, IMO. Besides, the [i]only[/i] person who says that Arya resembles Lyanna physically is Ned - hardly an unbiased observer. Meanwhile, everyone says that Lyanna was beautiful, and Arya muses that that's not a thing that's ever been said about her (except for that one occasion with Ned).

[quote]And Jon is independently described in Bran's vision as his heart getting ever colder, which sounds an awful lot like metaphorically wrapping himself in a wall of ice. I see no reason to insist the wall of ice must be bludgeoningly literal when prophecies so seldom are and there's an elegant metaphorical meaning ready to hand.[/quote]

It's bludgeoningly literal if one has come to realize and believes in R+L=J, which not all readers have - here on this board we're the hardcore nutbjobs who gleefully dissect the books over and over. Besides, what would be your interpretation, exactly? That Jon is the wall of ice, and that Arya... how is she linked to Jon in this vision? About the only thing I can think of is that Arya often thinks of Jon and in AFfC, she's reluctant to give up Needle because it reminds her of Jon and the north. So how does she "grows on Jon"?

And in all this, you're ignoring the larger context of the wall of ice vision - it was part of a trio related to the bride of fire section of Dany's vision. Do you really think Dany would want Arya as a lover? Like I've said before, while Dany has shown herself willing to have sex with her own gender, when she has sexual fantasies, it's always about a man.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1621000' date='Dec 16 2008, 05.47']It's bludgeoningly literal if one has come to realize and believes in R+L=J, which not all readers have - here on this board we're the hardcore nutbjobs who gleefully dissect the books over and over.[/quote]
Seriously. We have spoiled ourselves on this. The other 99% of the people reading the books don't have a clue.

Flush the whole "it's too obvious" bullshit right down the crapper. Because it's really not.



We fuckers think too much.

[Horza]

[quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1621004' date='Dec 17 2008, 00.52']Seriously. We have spoiled ourselves on this. The other 99% of the people reading the books don't have a clue.

Flush the whole "it's too obvious" bullshit right down the crapper. Because it's really not.



We fuckers think too much.[/quote]

Actually, who the hell came up with R+L = J to begin with? Everyone I've ever heard discuss it didn't get it until they came here... I sure as hell didn't have a clue.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Horza' post='1621007' date='Dec 16 2008, 08.55']Actually, who the hell came up with R+L = J to begin with? Everyone I've ever heard discuss it didn't get it until they came here... I sure as hell didn't have a clue.[/quote]

No idea. All I can say is that it was a theory already well established and documented when I first began to lurk on this board, back in November of 2000.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Horza' post='1621007' date='Dec 16 2008, 05.55']Actually, who the hell came up with R+L = J to begin with? Everyone I've ever heard discuss it didn't get it until they came here... I sure as hell didn't have a clue.[/quote]
I don't know. I'm a n00b myself. But I suspect Jon Targaryen. (Not really, but I wanted say "what's up!")

Then again, I've read the series four+ times over, and I may (fuck yeah I would've) caught on at any rate. Reading the series four times over /= normal reader.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Meanwhile, everyone says that Lyanna was beautiful, and Arya muses that that's not a thing that's ever been said about her (except for that one occasion with Ned).[/quote]
Lady Smallwood says it. Arya thought that when she was eight or nine; come back when she's sixteen.
[quote]It's bludgeoningly literal if one has come to realize and believes in R+L=J, which not all readers have[/quote]
"Wall of ice in vision"="giant wall made of actual ice" is bludgeoningly literal whether you believe R+L=J or (like me) not.

And I don't know exactly what every element of that vsion means. I only am saying that your assumption that it can only mean that Jon is R+L and marries Dany is a leap greter than you acknowledge.

[The.Hound]

Her two husbands will probably be Hot Pie and Gregolem, there are several hints at this in the books, just read carefully.

[The Garlic Knight]

i am thinking that it would be good for us to see the dying of dany before too much more of the time has passed. the character of the dany girl was fun for me to read at first but now i have had enough of her and it is being boring to keep reading more of the dany character so i am thinking that she can die now and the dragons can be passed from her to the next person or let to run free and to burn and to destroy.

[Krafus]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1621320' date='Dec 16 2008, 12.28']Lady Smallwood says it. Arya thought that when she was eight or nine; come back when she's sixteen.[/quote]

Adults in our world (and especially a child's parents) often tell children they're cute or pretty even when it's not true. In this case, I'm inclined to believe that Lady Smallwood was just being supportive of a child caught in bad circumstances (that is, being a hostage). And since we're delving on what people say of Arya, didn't Jeyne Poole call her "Horseface" and neigh whenever Arya came near? Hardly a nickname for someone of notable physical beauty.

[quote]"Wall of ice in vision"="giant wall made of actual ice" is bludgeoningly literal whether you believe R+L=J or (like me) not.[/quote]

Perhaps. But I find it less literal than the first part of this trio of vision, "Her silver was trotting the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars" - obviously a reference to her wedding night with Drogo.

[quote]And I don't know exactly what every element of that vsion means. I only am saying that your assumption that it can only mean that Jon is R+L and marries Dany is a leap greter than you acknowledge.[/quote]

Again, perhaps you're right. I'm actually not sure that even if R+L=J is true that Jon will marry Dany, but the original poster asked for who posters believed Dany would end up with. To me R+L=J and Jon being the blue flower of Dany's vision are reasonable assumptions, but you are of course free to disagree. For me at least, it's a lot more plausible than some of the theories that crop up on this board... but anyway, a lot of the fun around here comes from speculation.

[The Garlic Knight]

i am thinking also that arya is to be the blue flower who will not for her own self be truly blossoming until she comes to the wall at some time that is later in the books. i have seen it suggested in here some place before that the blue flower might have been instead the red herring and i think it is just that because jon is the one that is right now up on the wall it is a jump for us to be assuming that the flower is to be jon. i am thinking that jon will be revealed for him to be the son of eddard and the lady ashara of the daynes and that it will be revealed also that the sword that is dawn is the sword that is the bringer of the light.

i have been forgetting to be saying also that it is most likely arya is to be most likely the flower for not only the reason that she is often compared to the lyanna but also the blue flower is given to us to historically have meaning of the stark women and as it is not the time yet for her to be flowering and that time i think will happen for her on the wall of ice.

[Spring Bass]

I think she's probably going to hook up with whoever the other two dragon-riders will be (i.e., the three heads of the dragon). One of those will probably be Tyrion, but the other is an open question; Victarion or Quentyn Martell, I'd guess.

Jon would be kind of cool (since, regardless of his actual parentage, he's clearly the representative of the North, Winter, and the "Ice" in "Song of Ice and Fire"), but I think he's too tied to the North and its Gods (via his direwolf) to be one of Dany's fellow dragon-riders. He could still be a lover, though.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1619471' date='Dec 15 2008, 00.53']the blue flower (which correct me if I'm wrong wasn't even identified explicitly as a rose in the first place).[/quote]When Dany has the vision it's "a blue flower" but when Jorah rants about how these visions are BS, he says "a blue rose", and this can come only from what Dany told him.

Hold on...
ACOK:
[i]"Perhaps," she said reluctantly. "Yet the things I saw..."
"A dead man in the prow of a ship, [b]a blue rose[/b], a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"[/i]

[The Garlic Knight]

in the story of the hedged knight there is a mummer who has for the use of her show a dragon on a string that she is to be controlling of and i am thinking that the horn that is being blown by the man of euron is in much of the same likeness a way of making a dragon just as this mummers dragon was to be controlled.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1620036' date='Dec 15 2008, 21.06']Even if we grant that, since R+L=J is yet unproven, Arya currently has more associations with Lyanna than Jon, it's certainly Jon who is the character most frequently associated with the Wall, and Arya doesn't look to be headed that way anytime soon.[/quote]But the "wall of ice" doesn't have to represent the Wall at all. If we posit that the rose itself is symbolic, then the Wall itself can be symbolic too.

If, for example, we imagine that the wall of ice is Arya's feelings, frozen by the FM, then we can say that the chink in it is her hidden feelings of love for her family, also symbolized by the hiding of Needle, and that the blue rose represents what she would develop into with love (the blue rose has always been associated with some love story). Would be quite fitting to have her betray the FM the same way Lyanna supposedly betrayed the Starks, and for the same reason, seeing how similar they are said to be repeatedly.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1621666' date='Dec 16 2008, 16.03']But the "wall of ice" doesn't have to represent the Wall at all. If we posit that the rose itself is symbolic, then the Wall itself can be symbolic too.

If, for example, we imagine that the wall of ice is Arya's feelings, frozen by the FM, then we can say that the chink in it is her hidden feelings of love for her family, also symbolized by the hiding of Needle, and that the blue rose represents what she would develop into with love (the blue rose has always been associated with some love story). Would be quite fitting to have her betray the FM the same way Lyanna supposedly betrayed the Starks, and for the same reason, seeing how similar they are said to be repeatedly.[/quote]

That's a possibility, yes. Another is that the Wall is symbolic of what will happen to Jon himself in ADwD - his heart will turn to ice from being Lord Commander (a process that's already started judging from the ADwD spoilers), and the blue rose represents the love that Dany will eventually manage to bring out of his frozen emotional shell.

[Branfangd]

[quote name='Guardsman Bass' post='1621639' date='Dec 16 2008, 20.48']Jon would be kind of cool (since, regardless of his actual parentage, he's clearly the representative of the North, Winter, and the "Ice" in "Song of Ice and Fire"), but I think he's too tied to the North and its Gods (via his direwolf) to be one of Dany's fellow dragon-riders. He could still be a lover, though.[/quote]


If anyones the personification of North i have to say it's Bran, His connection with the North trumps Jon's any day