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Samalander

How easy is it for Stannis to threaten Jon?

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Sounds like a king to me

I am reminded of a quote from Dune:

"She asked me to tell her what it is to rule," Paul said. "And I said that one commands. And she said I had some unlearning to do."

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hmmm.....

"The Prince that was Promised" -- "The Stallion that Mounts the World"

Dany's kid was promised to be the Stallion that Mounts the World...his death pays for Drogo's "life" and then Drogo & MMD's death pay for the waking of dragons so maybe the PTWP isn't ever going to "live" because he died to wake stone dragons...hmm

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not really Rhaegar knew how to laugh but he was a fool when he decided to make the trident pretty much his first battle when he was facing people like robert and ned who had already fought multiple battles

Rhaegar had to be dragged into the war by the 3 most conservative members of the kingsguard, and at the Battle of the Trident he was plainly trying to kill Robert Baratheon as quickly as possible. Given Jaime's memory of his last conversation with Rhaegar, it's clear that Rhaegar had decided he would bring an end to Targaryen rule on his own terms.

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Rhaegar was a moron who thought that could get away with anything, because he's so special. Typical Targaryen behavior.

To me, Jaime's conversation with him before the Trident shows that he intended to overthrow Aerys.

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Stannis SUCKS, I miss you Renly! Me, Margaery, and Loras. Please come back. Let me know it was really you on the battle of the blackwater!

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Stannis threatens everyone, especially people on his side. Pretty much half of Stannis's conversations with Davos involving a Stannis threat and he still made Davos his hand.

It's probably his way of showing that he likes you. Kind of like, I only threaten people I respect, otherwise I just kill them or something.

And the actual threat of Stannis going after Jon: similar to the US nuking China. Sure, we could do it, and we might get away with it. But it would most likely do so much damage to ourselves that we would never in a million years try it.

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I have a question and I'm sorry if it's been asked before: If R + L = J, and Dany's the Azor Ahai, and Melisandre finds out both of these facts, will she burn Jon?

Rampant Speculation Begins:

No. By that time, she'll understand that she's made too many mistakes. Moreover, Dany is not Azor Ahai. She's the Mother of Dragons. It's not the same thing.

The Prince who was promised isn't "Prince" and it isn't "Princess". It's not even Princes or Princesses. It means all of those ideas and genders, combined into one term. Think of it as "Royal/s", a genderless word that means both singular and plural. Its true meaning has been garbled over millenia due to a subtle translation error, changing that flexible word that could mean both singular and plural of either gender into a singular, masculine word.

"The Royals who were promised", would be close enough. And there are three of them - the dragon has three heads. Which one of them is Azor Ahai is not easy to determine. It might not even be Jon Snow. The Dragon has Three Heads, after all.

That's my take. It's not that Dany isn't the Princess who was promised. She is, but she's only one of them. Jon is another -- and the third? Remains unkown so far.

I expect that ADwD in the North will be very much a story where Jon and Mel interact throughout it. That's why Mel stays behind with Jon Snow as Stannis rides south. There will be a bit of a fling developing between them and something will occur that will cause Mel to begin to question whether she has made a mistake. She doubts. She's given Stannis that sword to make something true that never was and it is gnawing at her.

So Mel won't move against Jon no matter what she learns as she will be paralyzed with creeping doubts. Wanting to save Jon's life - and wanting to at least prove her self-doubt and put it finally to rest, I do not think that Mel will raise her hand to save Stannis from Jon. After all, If Stannis is Azor Ahai, he will not need her help; and if he is not... then he doesn't deserve it. Either way, she need not move against Jon Snow, a man for whom she begins to fall.

Jon is fated to kill Stannis in ADwD and when he does, Mel will know she has been wrong - and that will stay her hand.

So no, I do not think that Mel will move against Jon. I'm not sure that will save her from Lord Snow's judgment, however.

We'll see :)

As for Stannis threatening Jon? Very easy when all Jon has is the NW. But when Jon the Warg has most of the Wildlings and Tormund Giant's Bane ultimately swear to him as their King as well? They don't want the Lord of Bones as their Lord. They won't stand for it -- nor kneel to Stannis. Jon Snow does not ask them to kneel.

Stannis will be outnumbered, many of his Queen's men consumed by Ironmen and Northmen. He will be no match for Jon Snow without Mel's help -- and in the end, she won't give it.

Stannis is doomed. We've known that since the first book, right? It's been all about finding out why he is doomed and how his fate will be met.

When Stannis' false Lightbringer clashes with Longclaw - just like Stannis, it won't bend; and it will break.

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Hello. :) I read somewhere that GRRM stated Jon will become a greyer character in ADwD. Any thoughts on how that will pan out? I find it intriguing and can't wait to read it. :smoking:

I can't imagine Snow ever leaving the wall... but if his honor becomes a bit tarnished, might he?

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We'll see :)

As for Stannis threatening Jon? Very easy when all Jon has is the NW. But when Jon the Warg has most of the Wildlings and Tormund Giant's Bane ultimately swear to him as their King as well? They don't want the Lord of Bones as their Lord. They won't stand for it -- nor kneel to Stannis. Jon Snow does not ask them to kneel.

Stannis will be outnumbered, many of his Queen's men consumed by Ironmen and Northmen. He will be no match for Jon Snow without Mel's help -- and in the end, she won't give it.

Stannis is doomed. We've known that since the first book, right? It's been all about finding out why he is doomed and how his fate will be met.

When Stannis' false Lightbringer clashes with Longclaw - just like Stannis, it won't bend; and it will break.

Stannis' defeated 50k wildlings, killing hundreds of their most eleite fighters and capturing several more. Jon can not hold the NW and wildlings. If Jon becomes the new wildling king what makes him better than Mance with less men?

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Cybroleach dude! Where did you get your avatar picture???

Are there any larger versions of it available? :thumbsup:

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And indeed, if the Wildlings makes Jon their new king, how will the Night's Watch look on that? Thorne is still around and I don't doubt that he'll throw his weight around to paint Jon as the next Night King.

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And indeed, if the Wildlings makes Jon their new king, how will the Night's Watch look on that? Thorne is still around and I don't doubt that he'll throw his weight around to paint Jon as the next Night King.

Because they only need to swear to obey him and defend the Wall. He need not claim lands nor a title. He does not require their fealty. He does not ask that they bend the knee. The lands he will permit the Wildlings to settle are the Gift. And that land is ALREADY Jon's to rule over as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Other people will claim this makes him the Wilding King, not Jon.

Jon asks only that they fight the Others and take orders from a brother of the Night's Watch to coordinate the defence of the Wall.

This is the very SAME request that Jon asks for in the chapter published on GRRM's site, I might add. He does not ask that Stannis' men swear him fealty - only that they defend the wall and obey the commands of a brother of the Night's Watch as they do so.

But the reality is -- if there are no Wildlings left Beyond the Wall, and all of them are on the southern side working to defend it, and take orders to defend the Wall from a brother of the NW -- all of whom take orders from the Lord Commander...

Then Jon Snow is, for all intents and purposes, King of the Wildlings.

Does anyone here seriously think that Jon Snow is going to let Tormund Giant's Bane die with all of his wildlings on the northern side of the wall as the Others advance on them, when he could allow them to pass south of the wall to defend it?

Is that a rational decision that Jon Snow would make? Is Tormund Giant's Bane a friend of Jon's or a foe?

Not one chance in hell. Jon will not let Tormund perish.

Jon Snow has already said at the end of ASoS as he was in the wildling camp that Mormont would have considered Mance's peace proposal -- but the rest of the leadership now was too close-minded to consider it.

So we already know where Jon's heart lies on this. Mormont was a man Jon respected. Mormont would have listened and so will Jon. The rest? No. They will try and twist the truth to make it appear to be a naked power grab.

Jon will end up riding to save Tormund and rescue the Wildlings. He will earn their trust with that rescue and he will put the wildlings to the defence of the Realm.

Remember, to the Wildlings, Jon is no Southron Lord. He is a warg and is descended from Bale the Bard. He may be a crow, but he's an honouable enough one who does not ask them to bend the knee. He will only ask that they fight the Others during the coming winter and refrain from stealing the daughters of the Northmen until the Spring. That's the essence of his deal.

To Stannis, word will come that Jon's a traitor and is setting himself up as King in the North. When Stannis learns that Jon was also named as the heir of Robb Stark as King in the North by Robb himself? I preduct the Karstarks will by that time be in neck deep with Stannis. Stannis will become alarmed at Jon Snow's pretensions. Add to that that the Karstarks will demand Jon Snow's blood as vengeance for the father's death - and to ensure their own claim over Winterfell?

This will move in a way that neither Stannis nor Jon will want, but which neither can avoid.

So - do I think Stannis will die? Yes I do. Do I think it will be at the hands of Jon Snow? Yes I do. Will it be Jon's "fault", in the sense that is will be an act of Jon Snow's malice?

No I don't. Not for one minute.

But that won't make Stannis any more alive, and it won't change the fact that Jon Snow is the one who will end up killing him. In self-defence perhaps, but a dead Stannis is a dead Stannis, just the same.

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Hello. :) I read somewhere that GRRM stated Jon will become a greyer character in ADwD. Any thoughts on how that will pan out? I find it intriguing and can't wait to read it. :smoking:

I can't imagine Snow ever leaving the wall... but if his honor becomes a bit tarnished, might he?

Well so far jon has been a pretty classic misunderstood hero type, the burden of the complicated situation he is will force him to make some decisions that will lead him well away from that stereotype I believe. I can't wait either.

I don't think he will leave I think it will have more to do with what he has to do to keep control.

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another thing has been bugging me

well, if stannis needs king's blood and edric, aemon and mance jr. are out of his reach, then only other royal blood on the wall is jon (not only that he is royal bastard but his line is oldest in Westeros regardless of his parentage)

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of course, the kings in the north.. i'm wondering when stannis will realize that

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another thing has been bugging me

well, if stannis needs king's blood and edric, aemon and mance jr. are out of his reach, then only other royal blood on the wall is jon (not only that he is royal bastard but his line is oldest in Westeros regardless of his parentage)

Even stronger if he's NOT a bastard. R+L could have married. I think they did.

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another thing has been bugging me

well, if stannis needs king's blood and edric, aemon and mance jr. are out of his reach, then only other royal blood on the wall is jon (not only that he is royal bastard but his line is oldest in Westeros regardless of his parentage)

Shireen is also at the Wall, at Eastwatch.

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i really doubt that bald fanatic would harm his daughter and heir

(well maybe if he was really desperate and with Jon out of reach)

I expect Stannis to become really desperate, and with the stakes so high--if he fails, he believes that all of humanity will die with him--how could he as Azor Ahai not make every imaginable sacrifice?

Meanwhile, I don't see Stannis trying to burn Jon. As a plot twist, it has only one possible outcome--Stannis failing. Which isn't very interesting.

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