Problems withR+L=J and aging up the characters *Spoilers*

[The hairy bear]

From the leaked script posted in [url="http://winter-is-coming.blogspot.com/2008/12/winter-is-comings-exclusive-pilot.html"]Winter is Coming[/url]

[quote]A few more details I found interesting. Regarding ages, Jon and Robb are listed as 17 in the script, Sansa as 13, Arya 11 and Bran as 8, Dany is listed as 15. All the other children seemed to be the same age as in the books. Was a bit odd when a 13-year old Joffrey was acting like a 17-year old Robb was no match for him.[/quote]

If the sources are right, I'm afraid they are missing R+L=J. If Jon is 17, then the war should take place 17 years ago (since Rhaegar has to be alive to get Lyanna pregnant).

However, if Dany is only 15, then Aerys should be alive at this point.

I am missing something, or they setting the grounds for a serious continuity problem?

[Ninepenny]

They probably won't state the ages in the show, so it just requires a leap of imagination.

[Rinso]

Besides, I think that you, hairy bear, forgot that R+L=J is only an [i]unconfirmed [/i]theory...

[cronos619]

Or it could be that Robert's Rebellion took 2 years to win. Jon is born a the TOJ nine months in, Lyanna dies there from causes other than child birth. [i]IF[/i] the theory is correct the creative writing team will find a way to work it out.

[Bormon]

[quote name='cronos619' post='1622792' date='Dec 17 2008, 11.22']Or it could be that Robert's Rebellion took 2 years to win. Jon is born a the TOJ nine months in, Lyanna dies there from causes other than child birth. [i]IF[/i] the theory is correct the creative writing team will find a way to work it out.[/quote]


That is a pretty good rationale I think. We really don't know how long that Robert's Rebellion actually took.

Although, FWIW, I am pretty sure that TOJ happens at the end of the Rebellion, since IIRC they mention the death of the royal family. (not 100% sure about that)

[The hairy bear]

Thinking about it, R+L=J does not have to be true for the problem to exist. Catelyn thought Eddard had Jon during the war, and Jon was at Winterfell before Cat got there. That would mean that Dany would have been born at least one year after Eddard returned home.

Ergo, Eddard would have to return home before the Mad King's death.


The idea of the war lasting more than two years could work as a way to retcon it. But I'm not sure I like it as a solution and I think it's a bad way to start...

[jousha]

[quote name='Ninepenny' post='1622699' date='Dec 17 2008, 09.20']They probably won't state the ages in the show, so it just requires a leap of imagination.[/quote]

Agreed. Perhaps the ages are just to help them in their casting. The actual age of someone is rarely, if ever, stated in the book so the show will probably avoid that as well.

[Rimmer]

The gap gets closer if Dany is actually 15-and-a-half, or 15 and 11 months. We don't have to assume that she has the same birthday as Jon.

[Lady Blackfish]

And Dany did have a birthday somewhere along in AGOT.

Of course so did Jon, I forget how close together and in what order they were though.

[cronos619]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1623126' date='Dec 17 2008, 13.47']And Dany did have a birthday somewhere along in AGOT.

Of course so did Jon, I forget how close together and in what order they were though.[/quote]

Errant Bard has a great timeline worked out [topic="31411"]here[/topic]

[quote]May
20/05/298 Ned 1 Robert arrives in WinterFell
20/05/298 Jon 1 Welcoming feast
25/05/298 Dany 3 Dany's Birthday (14) – other side of Dothraki sea
25/05/298 Arya 1 Crooked stiches
26/05/298 Cat 2 Decision to go South, Jon to NW

June
09/06/298 Dany 4 Vyserys mounted again – arrives in Vaes Dothrak
09/06/298 Bran 2 Things I do for love
14/06/298 Tyrion 1 Slaps Joffrey, wolves howling
22/06/298 Jon 2 Ned leaving WinterFell, « should have been you »
30/06/298 Cat 3 Assassin to kill Bran

July
02/07/298 Ned 2 News of Dany's wedding, Barrowlands
04/07/298 Cat 3 Cat leaving Winterfell
10/07/298 Tyrion 2 camp, not yet at the wall
21/07/298 Benjen leaving
23/07/298 Sam is 15 and kicked out of Horn Hill

August
15/08/298 Sansa 1 Ruby ford, Nymeria attacks Joff
19/08/298 Ned 3 Darry – Lady killed
24/08/298 Jon's birthday[/quote]

edited to fix link

[The Anti-Targ]

[quote name='The hairy bear' post='1622690' date='Dec 18 2008, 04.17']From the leaked script posted in [url="http://winter-is-coming.blogspot.com/2008/12/winter-is-comings-exclusive-pilot.html"]Winter is Coming[/url]

If the sources are right, I'm afraid they are missing R+L=J. If Jon is 17, then the war should take place 17 years ago (since Rhaegar has to be alive to get Lyanna pregnant).

However, if Dany is only 15, then Aerys should be alive at this point.

I am missing something, or they setting the grounds for a serious continuity problem?[/quote]

Yeah, you can't have too much of an age disparity between Dany and the other kids if you are gonna make the kids' respective ages known, and keep faith with the historical timelines (albeit having everything occur a couple of years earlier than in the books). And Joff being significantly younger than Robb doesn't sound like such a good call. Though he certainly comes off as 4 years less mature than Robb in the books. Joff should be a year older than Sansa at least I reckon.

Seems though like Dany will start off as 15 and have her 16th Birthday which would keep to the timelines OK since Jon/Robb are about 15 and Dany 13-->14 in the books.

My take is that they've gone for a middle ground with the ages and this might have been a compromise, which, IMO, is not the best thing. This reported mix of ages is some being bumped up and others almost remaining the same. Either keep faith with the all ages in the books or bump everyone up by an equal number of years.

If they don't explicitly mention ages within the show then it really doesn't matter too much.

These ages certainly help to focus the thinking on casting suggestions.

[antisocial]

[quote name='The Anti-Targ' post='1623662' date='Dec 17 2008, 18.26']Yeah, you can't have too much of an age disparity between Dany and the other kids if you are gonna make the kids' respective ages known, and keep faith with the historical timelines (albeit having everything occur a couple of years earlier than in the books). And Joff being significantly younger than Robb doesn't sound like such a good call. Though he certainly comes off as 4 years less mature than Robb in the books. Joff should be a year older than Sansa at least I reckon.

Seems though like Dany will start off as 15 and have her 16th Birthday which would keep to the timelines OK since Jon/Robb are about 15 and Dany 13-->14 in the books.

My take is that they've gone for a middle ground with the ages and this might have been a compromise, which, IMO, is not the best thing. This reported mix of ages is some being bumped up and others almost remaining the same. Either keep faith with the all ages in the books or bump everyone up by an equal number of years.

If they don't explicitly mention ages within the show then it really doesn't matter too much.

These ages certainly help to focus the thinking on casting suggestions.[/quote]
I'd like to add there maybe another reason for upping the ages.
I think that Danys age in HBO's adaption may have more to do with how our society perceives a 13 year old girl with budding breasts (being sold to a "savage" for a kingdom) having sex with a 20-something year old man. That many be too much controversy for even HBO.
We can all say it acceptable when we read it in a book. But to film that scene, even for cable TV, it may be just a little too much.
I think HBO is doing the right thing.
Continuity be damned.

[cronos619]

It would have been easier to keep straight though if they had simply decided that 2 more years had passed since the end of Robert's Rebellion. Just make the years of peace longer, and keep Greyjoy's Rebellion at the same time relative to the start of the story. but thats just my opinion.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='cronos619' post='1623479' date='Dec 17 2008, 17.46']Errant Bard has a great timeline worked out [topic="31411"]here[/topic][/quote]
Thanks for that.

[cronos619]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1624160' date='Dec 18 2008, 09.31']Thanks for that.[/quote]

lol, sad to say that I had spent about 14 hours working on one of my own before I stumbled across Errant Bard's, and his is MUCH better.

[The Anti-Targ]

Don't want to pepper the forum with leaked script threads, so will post my observation here.

From the description of the pilot on WiC: No Flashbacks.

[red snow]

I suspect the ages wont be mentioned that much unless the books have it in the dialogue. Jon might get a mention of his age as he maybe has to be a certain age before he can join the black watch. It would be very clunky if in the pilot everyone is walking around saying "Hi, I'm X and I'm Y years old"

As long as it's not as bad as the casting for the kids in the new series of Desperate housewives, where kids born years after others look older. In fact the less it resemble Desperate housewives, the better :)

[cronos619]

[quote name='red snow' post='1625384' date='Dec 19 2008, 06.31']In fact the less it resemble Desperate housewives, the better :)[/quote]

:agree:
Old Gods be praised, let it come to pass that there is no resemblance except that they are both on TV and keep getting orders for season after season.

[Robb19]

[quote name='antisocial' post='1623738' date='Dec 17 2008, 20.50']I'd like to add there maybe another reason for upping the ages.
I think that Danys age in HBO's adaption may have more to do with how our society perceives a 13 year old girl with budding breasts (being sold to a "savage" for a kingdom) having sex with a 20-something year old man. That many be too much controversy for even HBO.
We can all say it acceptable when we read it in a book. But to film that scene, even for cable TV, it may be just a little too much.
I think HBO is doing the right thing.
Continuity be damned.[/quote]

In this situation, what's the difference between 13 and 15?

[Wintermute]

Forgive me, but it's been a few years since I've read the books. How often are characters' ages actually spoken of during [i]dialogue[/i](exact ages)? It seems as though the ages given in the script are perhaps more intended as guidelines for the reader or a casting director. In a visual medium it seems as though they could potentially go the entire series without ever actually giving the audience exact ages. If a character looks young then they're young, if they look old they're old. Their ages can merely be assumed.