The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Nevvier]

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1649936' date='Jan 15 2009, 08.17']I would agree if Cersei and Jaime were mere siblings but they are bloody twins!
Almost identical genome! That kind of incest should have lead to at least one of them being crippled (physically and/or mentally).
The dice must've rolled veeery luckily.[/quote]

They are really basically brother and sister. They must be dizygotic twins since one is male and one is female. Hence two eggs two sperm.

[Szar]

[quote name='Nevvier' post='1650112' date='Jan 15 2009, 18.02']They are really basically brother and sister. They must be dizygotic twins since one is male and one is female. Hence two eggs two sperm.[/quote]
There's the possibility of polar body twins -- essentially the same egg fertilized twice by different sperm.

They are still technically dizygotic, since the paternal genes differ between the twins, but the maternal side is almost completely identical.

[General_Lee]

[quote name='Nevvier' post='1650112' date='Jan 15 2009, 18.02']They are really basically brother and sister. They must be dizygotic twins since one is male and one is female. Hence two eggs two sperm.[/quote]

Okay, thanks for the Info, it's been too long since I learned that stuff in school.
Anyway, I think it's pointless to talk about the genetic effects of incest in our world since it doesn't quite seem to work that way in Martins world.
The Targaryens have been inbreeding for many generations and they still seem to be all-healthy and sane (well, except for the problem with the "madness" I wouldn't make the incest responsible for that).

[the silent speaker]

I assumed General Lee's point was not so much that Joff, Tommen and Myrcella's parents were sibings whose parents were cousins, as that Joff, Tommen and Myrcella's parents were Cersei and Jaime.

[Venardhi]

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1649936' date='Jan 15 2009, 06.17']I would agree if Cersei and Jaime were mere siblings but they are bloody twins!
Almost identical genome! That kind of incest should have lead to at least one of them being crippled (physically and/or mentally).
The dice must've rolled veeery luckily.[/quote]
Since they are not identical/monozygotic twins, they are no more or less similar than any normal siblings genetically and thus are extremely unlikely to share the same chromosome profile. Just because they look alike and developed together in the womb doesn't mean they share any more or less of the same genes with each other as each one does with Tyrion.

Edit: Missed the last page for some reason, but yeah. . . there you go.

[Angalin]

[quote name='Szar' post='1650358' date='Jan 15 2009, 14.39']There's the possibility of polar body twins -- essentially the same egg fertilized twice by different sperm.[/quote]
That is a theoretical possibility rather than an actual one, as I don't think anyone has ever proved the theory by finding a pair of twins like that. It's more likely that Jaime and Cersei look very alike because their parents were cousins (which could also account for Tyrion's appearance, but that's up to GRRM).

[Szar]

[quote name='Angalin' post='1650947' date='Jan 16 2009, 06.55']That is a theoretical possibility rather than an actual one, as I don't think anyone has ever proved the theory by finding a pair of twins like that. It's more likely that Jaime and Cersei look very alike because their parents were cousins (which could also account for Tyrion's appearance, but that's up to GRRM).[/quote]
They found a pair in 2007.

[url="http://www.livescience.com/health/070326_semi_twins.html"]http://www.livescience.com/health/070326_semi_twins.html[/url]

[Ser Torgom The Armenian]

[quote name='Szar' post='1651355' date='Jan 16 2009, 08.17']They found a pair in 2007.

[url="http://www.livescience.com/health/070326_semi_twins.html"]http://www.livescience.com/health/070326_semi_twins.html[/url][/quote]


Good find

[Soporta]

That guy makes a good point about the olsen twins - fraternal but look so very alike.

Anyway, on topic, since this is my first post here, I have to add my two cents about R+L=J.

I made the mistake of cruising the boards before reading A Feast for Crows (I just couldn't help myself), and so naturally I came across a spoiler, or at least what I thought was a spoiler due to the fact that the poster in question was stating it as fact. Naturally I freaked out and swore not to return to the boards until after I had read AFfC. So, I finished AFfC, then had the sudden realisation that my spoiler had not appeared in the book. I tracked down that thread and discovered that if I'd just scrolled down a little I would have learnt that R+L=J was only an unconfirmed theory.

That said, my initial reaction upon seeing this theory was not 'wow, I am totally shocked, did not see that coming, are they serious?', it was 'of course! You complete fool, how did you not guess that, all the clues were there'. So, even now that I know R+L=J is only a theory, I will be completely shocked if it turns out not to be true (also disappointed because I've already talked myself into believing the idea is awesome and all previous ideas boring and stodgy). Unfortunately all my hopes for Jon and Dany, while awesome, are also so terribly standard and thus will likely never happen.

Anyway, I bet if Jon does turn out to be a Targaryen, someone will say - oh yeah, he has Rhaegar's ears, never noticed that before.

[Xanrn]

[quote name='Szar' post='1642390' date='Jan 9 2009, 08.57']There is absolutely no evidence to support a 'Missing Twin' scenario, so thankfully that's not very likely. (Though I wouldn't say [i]Star Wars[/i] had one -- Leia became Luke's twin pretty much out of the left field with little warning beforehand. But I digress.)

Since this is a new thread, perhaps we should summarize the current most popular theories?

[i]1. L + R = J[/i]
The most popular theory and the one to which I personally hold. The basic idea is that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child: Jon. The theory is well-supported as it explains many things throughout the books:

-Ned's promise. Ned found Lyanna dying of childbirth, and promised Lyanna that he would keep Jon safe (a promise that has caused Ned much grief throughout the years, due to all the lies he has been forced to tell to his loved ones).
-The dragon has three heads. We know that Rhaegar was at the very least interested in the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised, and that said prophecy has some connection to "the dragon has three heads". The original three-headed dragon was Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, Visenya and Rhaenys. Rhaegar's two eldest children are Aegon and Rhaenys. Rhaegar believed his son, Aegon, was the Prince who was Promised (according to Maester Aemon). But in that case, there's a daughter, Visenya, missing. Rhaegar's wife, Elia, was very frail and almost died during her previous child births. Even if there was no romantic relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, they might have tried to fullfill the prophecy by getting the last child.
-The Kingsguard at the tower of joy. Why were they at the tower instead of at their king's side -- or at the very least, at their prince's? If the Kingsguard were posted at the tower because they were protecting a royal heir, it's explained. They certainly were not shirking their duty -- they only fought because of it. "The Kingsguard does not flee."[/quote]

Ok haven't responded to one of these in years but anyway.

Ned made a promise to Lyanna, that it was about a child from Rhaeger is one explanation, that is was Jon is wild guess work.

Three Dragons, yeah except whatever Jons parentage, he is pretty clearly a Wolf not a Dragon. Prophecys are fickle like whores. It explains why Rhaeger might breed with Lyanna, it doesn't however support R+L=J. There is nothing to link Jon to Dragons.

The Kingsguard at the Tower supports Lyanna had a child, it has no bearing on wherever the child is Jon, hell if Lyanna died the baby could have followed or preceded.

See your missing the connection between the likely child of Rhaeger and Lyanna and Jon, there isn't one.



[quote name='Piper' post='1644224' date='Jan 11 2009, 02.52']I've seen good arguments that he has Targaryen madness. His rage-filled assault on Ser Aliser Thorn in AGOT and his rage-filled burst against Iron Emmett in ASOS seem much like Viserys' "waking the dragon."[/quote]

Is aload of rubbish.

Much like Visery's "waking the Dragon"? No it isn't, one is attacking a man bigger than you and lifting him with one hand and the other is giving a nipple twister to your weaker younger sister. Viserys had his fathers madness, Aerys mauled his sister-wife so badly conceiving Dany it was said it looked like she had been clawed and gnawed by a wild animal.

I'll tell you what Jon's rage seems like.

It seems like Brandon riding up to Aery's Castle with 6 men and yelling for Rhaeger "to come out and die".

Or Brandon in such a rage trying to reach a sword to help his father he doesn't notice he is strangling himself.

Or Ned picking up Littlefinger with one hand, slalmming him into a wall and only stopped from knifing him by Ser Rodricks intervention. I will also point out an almost indentical reaction to being wound up.

Or Ned killing the Captain of Jaime's Lannister Guard with ease.

Or Ned being able to hold enough of Ser Arthur Dayne's concentration for Howland Reed to come up behind him, without taking any serious injuries.

Waking the Dragon = empty threats and picking on people weaker than you.

"Waking the Wolf" = Go for the throat!

Jon = Ned and Ashara son.

Shortly after the War begin and Ned was in the Riverlands, Ashara came to him. To tell him where Lyanna was. Anyway love got in the way, one night of passionate affair, Ashara goes south maybe to Starfall maybe to be Lyanna's companion..

9 more months of War, Ned finally gets to the ToJ, finds Lyanna with a child. Ashara is probably at Starfall. Ned goes there and gets presented with Jon.

They hatch a plan, Ned takes Jon and a wetnurse goes North, Ashara fakes her death and takes baby Lygar across the seas using smugglers who operate from the unforgiving Dornish coast south of Starfall.

So Ned is ansty about the promise to Lyanna because he delegated the task and probably hasn't had any contact with the pair since.

Ned side skips/lies about Jon's parentage, to not bring dishonour upon Ashara or make people think about wether she truly would have killed herself with a newborn son. Also maybe to try and draw Dragon conspirators to Winterfell.

So Ashara didn't kill herself which explains the rather pathetic reason for suicide and the choice of the easiest to fake style. Not something really melodramtic like falling on Dawn.

If R+L=J it makes no sense for Ned to Jon north and keep him in plain sight and not foster him out to someone he could really trust. Ned had no idea what "Jon" would have looked like when he was older. Going to take alot to convince me he was dumb enough to take the risk "Jon" might grow up to be the spitting image of his "dad".
Different matter altogether if he was completely sure there was no chance of it.

Maybe one of the reasons Arya ended up in Braavos was so she could have a chance meeting with a girl/boy a few years older than her who looks like her...

Ashara being Jon's mother leaves the option for the two too meet.

[Piper]

[quote name='Xanrn' post='1653577' date='Jan 18 2009, 22.39']Three Dragons, yeah except whatever Jons parentage, he is pretty clearly a Wolf not a Dragon. Prophecys are fickle like whores. It explains why Rhaeger might breed with Lyanna, it doesn't however support R+L=J. There is nothing to link Jon to Dragons.[/quote]

Doesn't matter how Jon actually turned out; what matters is if Rhaegar thought he would get a dragon out of things. Also, one of his other children looked like a Martell rather than a Targaryen, iirc, so unless Rhaegar requires strict Targaryen blood purity tests, one Targaryen parent seemed to be enough for him.

[quote]The Kingsguard at the Tower supports Lyanna had a child, it has no bearing on wherever the child is Jon, hell if Lyanna died the baby could have followed or preceded.

See your missing the connection between the likely child of Rhaeger and Lyanna and Jon, there isn't one.[/quote]

One connection is parsimony. Lyanna had a child; who is this child? Jon Snow has some mysterious ancestry; who are his parents? The time line fits. The question of why Ned is so reluctant to tell anyone about Jon's mother fits with him being Rhaegar's son. It simply works well.

There are other hints, of course. Dany's vision of "a blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice," which fits with the association of Lyanna and Rhaegar's elopement (or abduction) with blue winter roses, is one. There's also the parallels with the Bael the Bard story: harp playing royal seduces the daughter of the Lord Stark and leaves her with a child raised as a Stark.

And so on. There are plenty of such clues that we would have to assume are red herrings or poor writing, conclusions that make less sense than concluding that they're simply good writing that hints at R + L = J.

[quote]Much like Visery's "waking the Dragon"? No it isn't, one is attacking a man bigger than you and lifting him with one hand and the other is giving a nipple twister to your weaker younger sister. Viserys had his fathers madness, Aerys mauled his sister-wife so badly conceiving Dany it was said it looked like she had been clawed and gnawed by a wild animal.

[snip]

Waking the Dragon = empty threats and picking on people weaker than you.

"Waking the Wolf" = Go for the throat![/quote]

Its hardly as clear cut as you make it. Viserys drawing a sword and threatening Khal Drogo because he didn't like his place at the feast seems very similar to Brandon riding into King's Landing and calling for Rhaegars head. It certainly close enough its hard to put Jon as either exhibiting "wolf" madness or "dragon" madness at the complete exclusion of the other.

[quote]Jon = Ned and Ashara son.

Shortly after the War begin and Ned was in the Riverlands, Ashara came to him. To tell him where Lyanna was. Anyway love got in the way, one night of passionate affair, Ashara goes south maybe to Starfall maybe to be Lyanna's companion..[/quote]

So you don't think there's enough evidence for Jon to be Lyanna's son, but can concluded that he is Ashara's based on some meeting that we have no evidence of, that Ned never reflected on, that is never hinted at by any character or any line anywhere in the text? That seems a bit much to assume, particularly when we have a theory that doesn't require any such imagination.

Also, how would Ashara know where Rhaegar was keeping Lyanna?

[quote]If R+L=J it makes no sense for Ned to Jon north and keep him in plain sight and not foster him out to someone he could really trust. Ned had no idea what "Jon" would have looked like when he was older. Going to take alot to convince me he was dumb enough to take the risk "Jon" might grow up to be the spitting image of his "dad".[/quote]

The North is not "plain sight." Its pretty far and hard for anyone who would recognize a Targaryen to get to. It could be that he should have fostered him out to someone like Howland Reed, but I'm sure the promise Lyanna exacted from him would have included provisions for watching over the child, which someone like Ned might feel could only be done in Ned's household.

As to knowing what Jon looked like, he could have had some indication by the time he was heading north, based on, if nothing else, whether the eyes color was Targyen or Stark. If its Stark, its worth the risk of bringing him north.

[Szar]

[quote name='Xanrn' post='1653577' date='Jan 19 2009, 04.39']Ok haven't responded to one of these in years but anyway.

Ned made a promise to Lyanna, that it was about a child from Rhaeger is one explanation, that is was Jon is wild guess work.

Three Dragons, yeah except whatever Jons parentage, he is pretty clearly a Wolf not a Dragon. Prophecys are fickle like whores. It explains why Rhaeger might breed with Lyanna, it doesn't however support R+L=J. There is nothing to link Jon to Dragons.

The Kingsguard at the Tower supports Lyanna had a child, it has no bearing on wherever the child is Jon, hell if Lyanna died the baby could have followed or preceded.

See your missing the connection between the likely child of Rhaeger and Lyanna and Jon, there isn't one.[/quote]
Sigh. Lyanna's rose at the Wall. There's your connection.

[Shewoman]

We don't know that Lyanna died of childbirth. Ned's memories of finding her make no reference to a child, living or dead. We also don't know what promise she asked of him. It's often assumed that she asked her brother to raise him at Winterfell and to keep his identity secret, but we don't know that for sure either.

I agree that the presence of the KG at the ToJ during the war suggests that a Targaryen was there, but we don't know that for sure, either.

Who or what is baby Lygar?

We have no evidence of Ned and Ashara being together aside from the tournament at Harrenhal, 1-2 years before the war started, and at Starfall after war's end when Ned returned Arthur Dayne's sword to his family. It is not possible for Jon to have been conceived at either of those times and have been born around the time of the Sack of Kings Landing.

Wylla is living at Starfall in the series present; I think it likely that she and her family consider it their home (much as the Stark servants considered Winterfell their home). If her family has lived at Starfall for some time (and that's just an "if"), she may share the Dayne Targaryenish coloring. If she was installed at the ToJ as a wetnurse to begin with, it would make sense to hire someone of that coloring in order to explain why any child purportedly born to Lyanna had that coloring without forcing people to assume Rhaegar was his father.

[CiaranAnnrach]

Hey y'all. Saw this thread and been thinking about it for the past few days. First off, wish I had seen it before. The L+R=J theory really makes sense, to me anyhow. And from rereading AGOT, I picked up on some things that I don't know if they have been mentioned yet or not. (I have not seen this threads predecessors.)

First, the Targaryens are very, very particular about marrying brother to sister, "to keep the blood line pure." I wonder if this is because their blood is relatively recessive - meaning, if they were to mate outside the family, their features would more than likely give way to that of their mate. So, the only way to guarantee that their features, the silvery-gold hair and violet eyes, would be prominent would be to mate brother to sister. Then, keeping the bloodline pure would take on a much more literal sense.

So, when Lyanna gave birth to Jon, then he would naturally have all of the Stark features, as they are more dominant than the Targaryen features.

Also, keeping Jon's ancestry a secret from Robert serves two purposes. The obvious one that has been mentioned numerous times - Jon would be killed by Robert if he knew he was of Targaryen blood. The one that hasn't been mentioned, if Robert knew that Lyanna, the woman he loved deeply, had born Rhaegars son - willingly, perhaps, it would forever taint his memory of Lyanna. By hiding Jons ancestry from Robert, Eddard protected the child, and also Robert. Knowing that the woman he loved had betrayed him, such knowledge could have crippled Roberts spirit and perhaps driven him mad.

Lastly, the direwolves. Those pups that they found fundamentally changed the children. Except for Sansa whose wolf was killed, and Rob and Rickon whose POV we have never seen, all of the children have had the warg-wolf dreams. Arya and Jon have them as they sleep, without realizing them. Bran has embraced them and become a warg. Perhaps the direwolves acted as a catalyst and woke the ancient blood of the First Men that lives in the Stark blood, making Jons wolf blood all the more stronger than what dragon blood he might have had. That would help to suppress the Targaryen madness, would it not?

[Szar]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1654181' date='Jan 19 2009, 20.57']Who or what is baby Lygar?[/quote]
[Ly]anna + Rhae[gar], I imagine.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Szar' post='1653853' date='Jan 19 2009, 09.12']Sigh. Lyanna's rose at the Wall. There's your connection.[/quote]

I would add Jon's dreams of the crypts below Winterfell ([i]AGoT[/i] 224-225 US Hardback) to that vision. These are before Ned's death and are strongly suggestive of a connection between Jon and someone buried in the crypts. I'd put Lyanna's tomb at the top of the list of possible connections with every other possibility far behind.

[Morekyyn]

This with the risk that Jon would eventually look Targaryenish/Valyrianish is not eliminated with Ashara as the mother, since the Dayne's are of Valyrian stock themselves. So there have always been a risk that Jon would look Valyrian whether his mother was Ashara or his father Rhaegar.

To conclude: There has always been a risk with lying about the parentage of Jon. But obviously Ned was willing to take that risk(if he lied that is...), for some reason.

[Shewoman]

Are the Daynes of Valinor stock?

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Are the Daynes of Valinor stock?[/quote]
No. In Westeros, all Valar must die. :P

[Jon Targaryen]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1655699' date='Jan 20 2009, 13.03']Are the Daynes of Valinor stock?[/quote]
The Daynes are not Valyrian. GRRM said Liz Taylor has purple eyes and she is not a Valyrian with regard to the matter. The Daynes are stony Dornishmen who happen to have purple or near purple eyes. I have never really considered that Wylla was probably stony Dornish too and might have features similar to the Daynes.