The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Szar]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1659072' date='Jan 23 2009, 06.30']How do you figure?[/quote]

I believe he's inferring that the siege of Dragonstone should have been the end of the war, not the sack of King's Landing. If that was correct (even though I am certain it isn't), Lyanna would have been pregnant at the very least four months prior to the war's beginning. While travels do take a while in Westeros, I honestly doubt Lyanna was abducted that long before the war began. It is possible, though.

If she wasn't, rape is far less likely because it would probably have been noticed.

[Shewoman]

However Brandon learned about Lyanna's disappearance, he reacted quickly. He and his squires went to Kings Landing, where he called on Rhaegar to come out and die. Aerys required Brandon's squires' fathers to come to KL as well. He killed all of them, including Rickard and Brandon Stark. He also called on Jon Arryn to send him the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. Jon refused and called his banners. All of this--Lyanna's disappearance, Brandon's violent reaction, the deaths of the Stark men and their retainers and Arryn calling his banners--is what got the war started.

[Piper]

Great article on Robert's Rebellion [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/1992/"]here[/url]. It should clear up a few things about time line and whatnot.

[Shewoman]

Szar, Lyanna's abduction led to the war; my impression is that things moved rather swiftly after she disappeared: Brandon learns she's missing, calls his squires and goes to Kings Landing, where he and his father are killed a few days before Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully (from Ned's PoV on p. 43 of my American paperback of GoT). Since Brandon was either on his way to or already at Riverrun preparing for his wedding when he heard about Lyanna, went to Kings Landing, and was killed Aerys a few days before he was to be married, that sounds like he got and reacted to the news of her disappearance quickly. Preparations for the wedding were already underway, which sounds like the wedding itself was not in the distant future at that time, and Brandon was dead before what should have been his wedding day dawned. Aerys demanded that the fathers of Brandon and his squires come to Kings Landing, where he has them all killed (including Brandon and Rickard Stark). After that Aerys calls on Jon Arryn to send him the heads of his fosterlings, Ned and Robert (they're both the heads of their Houses by this time); he refuses, calls his banners, and Robert and Ned call theirs.

[VorianGR]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1659567' date='Jan 23 2009, 18.20']Szar, Lyanna's abduction led to the war; my impression is that things moved rather swiftly after she disappeared: Brandon learns she's missing, calls his squires and goes to Kings Landing, where he and his father are killed a few days before Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully. Aerys then demands that the fathers of Brandon and his squires come to Kings Landing, where he has them all killed (including Brandon). After that Aerys calls on Jon Arryn to send him Ned's and Robert's heads (they're both the heads of their Houses by this time); he refuses, calls his banners, and Robert and Ned call theirs.[/quote]


That needs time. Brandon was on his way to Riverun from somewhere, he might have needed 10 days to reach KL. Then Rickard who was probably in Winterfell needs to go to KL, which should need more than a month. Then they die and Aerys sends Ravens to Eyrie, which should need a few days to reach and Jon Arryn calls his banners. We are probably 2 months after Lyanna's abduction.

[Jon Targaryen]

[quote name='VorianGR' post='1660690' date='Jan 24 2009, 01.30']Then Rickard who was probably in Winterfell needs to go to KL,[/quote]
He might have been on his way to Riverrun as well.

[Irri_pleases_her_khaleesi]

[quote]I didn't say a large number of people, did I? But if there was someone, such as perhaps Wylla...ohshi, she's already in on it isn't she, since she's claiming to be Jon's mother? So is Howland.[/quote]


I agree with CiaranAnnrach. I think Lyanna fell in love with and eloped with Rhaegar, and died in childbirth at the tower of joy. The people present were a nursemaid/midwife, Wylla, and the only other survivor from the battle against the 3 Kingsguard, Howland Reed. I think Wylla was loyal to Lyanna, posed as Jon's mom and accompanied Ned to Starfall to return Dawn, and stayed there to become Edric Dayne's wetnurse.

That's my spin on the theory :)

[Shewoman]

At the time that Lyanna disappeared, Robert and Ned were in the Eyrie with Jon Arryn (they were fostered there).

[b]I don't think weeks passed[/b] between Lyanna's disappearance and Brandon's ill-fated trip to King's Landing. He was either at Riverrun or on the way there for his marriage, which was to take place in a few days. We don't know how he found out his sister was missing. Whoever told him obviously was privy to some information; it would be interesting to know who that person was and what exactly they told Brandon. My impression is that things moved very swiftly then: he rounded up his squires and they all went to KL, where he called on Rhaegar to come out and die. It's likely that he assumed Rhaegar was involved because he passed his own wife Elia over in order to give Lyanna the Crown of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal. A lot of the Westerosi nobility were there; that may be why they tend to assume Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance as well.

Rhaegar, of course, did not come out and die. I don't know where he was at that point. Aerys demands that the fathers of Brandon and his squires come to Kings Landing and when they arrive, he kills all of them (including Brandon and Rickard Stark)--Jaime witnesses their deaths. Aerys at this point demands that Jon Arryn send him Robert's and Ned's heads (they are the heads of their Houses at this point). Jon doesn't.

Since Brandon's marriage was supposed to take place shortly after Lyanna disappeared, I think it likely that she was at Winterfell or Riverrun during this period. Since travel was sometimes difficult or dangerous, I don't see any reason why she would have taken off for Kings Landing. Brandon seems to have heard quickly about her disappearance, which suggests to me that she disappeared from the North (since the news travelled quickly). I'm not aware of any other noble family living in the area aside from the Tullys and, in any case, I don't believe we're ever told that Lyanna had friends. We see her with her brothers and Meera's account of Harrenhal suggests that she and Rhaegar were interested in each other there--but she doesn't have any close friends like Ned and Robert were.

[de Evreux]

I just read the books and developed the same theory. What I find to be the most compelling evidence is Martin's silence. I'm sure this theory has been around for over 10 years. I'm also sure Martin knows of it but he hasn't confirmed or denied it. Hmm? I think he's playing with us but I like the theory and it fits the timeline.

The Dragon has three heads. So if Jon is the second then who is the third? I'm starting to think it's Tyrion. I think maybe the Mad King impregnated Tywin's wife. Maybe giving birth to dragons is life threatening unless you are a dragon.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='de Evreux' post='1661105' date='Jan 24 2009, 15.30']I just read the books and developed the same theory. What I find to be the most compelling evidence is Martin's silence. I'm sure this theory has been around for over 10 years. I'm also sure Martin knows of it but he hasn't confirmed or denied it. Hmm? I think he's playing with us but I like the theory and it fits the timeline.

The Dragon has three heads. So if Jon is the second then who is the third? I'm starting to think it's Tyrion. I think maybe the Mad King impregnated Tywin's wife. [b]Maybe giving birth to dragons is life threatening unless you are a dragon.[/b][/quote]

If that logic, Elia should have died after giving birth to Rhaegar's first child, let alone his second.

No, I do not think Tyrion is a dragon. There's too much in the books to suggest otherwise, the most powerful one being when, I forget who, but someone told Jaime that he was not his father's son - that Tyrion was. Those two both think alike, are devious, and can see to the truth of things. Jaime/Cersei, maybe, but I doubt that as well. The Lannister coloring is too strong, and he'd have had to do this to spite Tywin long before Tywin resigned as Hand.

Honestly, I think all the dragon heads are accounted for. The mad king gave birth to three children, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. Rhaegar in turn had two confirmed children, Rhaenys and Aegon. If we assume Jon is a child of Rhaegars, that makes it his third child. I think "the dragon has three heads" refers to the number of offspring, not the number of living Targaryens.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1661123' date='Jan 24 2009, 16.56']If that logic, Elia should have died after giving birth to Rhaegar's first child, let alone his second.[/quote]
Well, being a Targaryen doesn't necessarily equate to being a satisfactory dragon for the prophecy. After all some people guess that Rhaegar needed a child with Lyanna precisely because Aegon wouldn't do. I think it's possible Tyrion could be a head without being a Targ, though I'm not positive enough to make him my official guess.

[Shewoman]

It was Tywin's sister--Gemma?--who told Jaime that Tyrion was Tywin's true son, or words to that effect.

Martin has said that the heads of the dragons don't all have to be Targaryens.

Lady Blackfish, why wouldn't Aegon "do" as a head of the dragon before he was killed?

[The SmilingKnight]

Thanks to everyone who cleared the timeline for me.
I thought war lasted shorter.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1661126' date='Jan 24 2009, 16.03']Well, being a Targaryen doesn't necessarily equate to being a satisfactory dragon for the prophecy. After all some people guess that Rhaegar needed a child with Lyanna precisely because Aegon wouldn't do. I think it's possible Tyrion could be a head without being a Targ, though I'm not positive enough to make him my official guess.[/quote]

Bwa?

I don't see how Rhaegar needing a child with Lyanna makes any difference with the claim that a non-Targaryen woman birthing a child with dragon blood is hazardous for the woman.

I personally like the theory discussed over in the "Three Mounts for Daenerys" thread better, that is, the king raped Tywin's wife, and the reason for Tyrion's dwarfism is she (unsuccessfully) tried to abort. But that would have little to do with birthing a Targaryen child being dangerous, and more to do with complications dealing with the failed attempt to abort.

Still, aren't there also numerous references to Tryion being Tywin's son, as well? And, "A Lannister always pays his debts." Almost their house motto, as often as it's repeated. I have a hard time thinking Tywin would wait as long as he did to get revenge. I mean, how old was Tryion when the War occured?

[Lady Blackfish]

Shewoman, I have no idea, it's just part of some spins of the R+L=J theory I've heard where people say he thought Aegon was the one to whom the prophecy referred ("His is the song of ice and fire") but was wrong, and realized he had to have a baby with Lyanna instead. Obviously this doesn't have any direct evidence, like much of what we try to hypothesize about the situation.

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1661239' date='Jan 24 2009, 19.11']I don't see how Rhaegar needing a child with Lyanna makes any difference with the claim that a non-Targaryen woman birthing a child with dragon blood is hazardous for the woman.[/quote]
The post you were replying to cited the "Three heads of the dragon" line and I am not sure why those heads have to all be of Targaryen blood. AKA, I'm not sure the three heads of the dragon = dragon blood = Targ blood. I probably should have replied to that one instead.

[Howlin' Howland]

[quote name='BloodofmyBlood' post='1640739' date='Jan 7 2009, 13.49']My crack pot theory is that R+L = Jon and Twin

Lyanna had twins but one of the babies was clearly a Targaryen (ie violet eyes or silver hair).
Already knowing that any Targaryen heir was a threat to Robert's claim to the throne the baby had to be hidden by Ned to protect him/her. Since Jon looked like a Stark Ned could claim him. But if the other on had a distiguishing Targaryen characteristic you would have to hide it farther from home.

What happened to the Twin? I believe he/she was taken by someone who's demise is exagerated. Ashara Dayne. Probably took her to Braavos or another one of the Free Cities.[/quote]


I agree with everything except the part about Braavos and the free cities. The Daynes hid Ashara in an out of the way keep in Dorne. And today people know Jon's twin as Gerold "Men call me Darkstar and I am of the night" Dayne.

Read the physical description in affc around page 300 (american hardcover) and see if you don't think its at least plausible.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1661239' date='Jan 24 2009, 19.11']I don't see how Rhaegar needing a child with Lyanna makes any difference with the claim that a non-Targaryen woman birthing a child with dragon blood is hazardous for the woman.[/quote]
The fact that Myriah Martell bore 4 sons for Daeron II and at least two (maybe 4) daughters tends makes a difference to that claim, though. Viserys II had several children by his second wife, as well, and Aegon III had got at least 5 children from his Velaryon wife (maybe 6, depending on who Daeron I's wife was).

[CiaranAnnrach]

Ahh, I see what you were getting at, Lady Blackfish. I just got confused by the snippet you quoted, because that portion didn't mention the 3 heads at all, but attempted to debunk a different theory previously posted.

And yeah, I'm of the belief that birthing a dragon is no more dangerous than birthing a child of any other blood. Too much evidence to support otherwise.

[Maia]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1661123' date='Jan 24 2009, 17.56']There's too much in the books to suggest otherwise, the most powerful one being when, I forget who, but someone told Jaime that he was not his father's son - that Tyrion was. Those two both think alike, are devious, and can see to the truth of things.[/quote]

But Tyrion has consciously and subconsciously molded himself after Tywin, because Tyrion realised early on that only adapting Tywin's devious, cerebral MO would allow him to be at all effective. I don't think that they would have been much alike if Tyrion had been born normal. Tyrion has strong propensity for hot-headedness and he is also essentially a people's person, who would have been charismatic if not for his dwarfism. Tywin was generally cold, introverted and un-charismatic (despite his physical beauty). Sure, they had similar levels of intelligence, but everything else was pure adaptation on Tyrion's part and frequently enough required struggle against his basic nature. Biting wit seems to be distributed pretty widely among the Lannister clan, too.

In any case, parents and children seldom have similar characters, so it is neither here nor there.

"The third head doesn't need to be a Targ" is a wonderfully ambiguous utterance, which is devoid of any info. Even if Tyrion is Aerys's bastard, he wouldn't bear the name, of course. It is quite possible that Jon doesn't have any right to the name either. Now, if GRRM told us that the third head doesn't need to have Targ _blood_, that would have told us something.

Eh, the topic? Ah, yes:

[quote]After all some people guess that Rhaegar needed a child with Lyanna precisely because Aegon wouldn't do.[/quote]

Lady Blackfish, IMHO those people merely wanted to exalt Jon to the promised saviour status ;) . Despite Jon's complete lack of fulfilling any prophecies so far mentioned, I must add.
"Three heads has the dragon" and the bis dato unexplained conviction that the 3 heads must be siblings, provide a much more plausible explanation, IMHO.

[Szar]

[quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1661257' date='Jan 25 2009, 01.35']I agree with everything except the part about Braavos and the free cities. The Daynes hid Ashara in an out of the way keep in Dorne. And today people know Jon's twin as Gerold "Men call me Darkstar and I am of the night" Dayne.

Read the physical description in affc around page 300 (american hardcover) and see if you don't think its at least plausible.[/quote]

Given that no one remarks even once on Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne's age, I seriously doubt he's of an age with Jon, who's frequently called 'boy'. Jon is, what, 16 in AFfC?