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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)


Werthead

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Here's a question that I'm sure has been covered ad nauseum.

Are we sure that Lyanna did not run off somewhat willfully with Rhaegar, Robert was just in love with her in a way that was not consummated entirely, and that the victors rewrote history as Rhaegar stealing Lyanna and raping her? I forget what is explicitly said sometimes.

I am certian he did not take advantage of her. Theres a scene where Mormont tells Dany that she is "her brothers sister" referring to Rhyghar, this after she stops the Dothraki from taking advantage of the women in a community that they have plundered and murdered in...

There was also a hint from Ned that she might not have been as tame and innocent a maid as the King thought she was, he says "You didn't know Lyanna" or something to that effect to Robert...

For sure this happened and was 100% consentual if you ask me...

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Ninie of Spades, R+L=J posits that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. That doesn't automatically mean that Jon is destined for greatness. Rhaegar, who was surely legitimate, never became king. Martin has said that we'll learn who Jon's parents are, but I don't know that Jon or any of the other characters will.

Well, I think at this point we can assume the Jon isnt just some schmo on the side. Hes lord commander of the nights watch at this point, which at the least is going to play a significant role.

Plus, I trust Martin. There's a lot of things he can do to keep this information from being the cliche you fear. Jon may not learn who his parents were because the people who know don't want the Targaryen line to continue and so never tell him. Or he may learn the truth and decide that a life spent playing the game of thrones isn't for him and settle on a small farm somewhere in incestuous happiness with Arya. Or maybe he learns the truth but backs off so that Dany can rule Westeros. Or maybe, as he ascends the throne, someone kills him.

Well, if Martin is going R+L=J, for him to do it then not really have a reason for it. And then he has to walk a line between cliche, and having R+L=J be some completely pointless jerk around.

Or maybe the N+A=J crowd is right. I don't think so, but it could happen. If that's the case, then R+L is a giant distraction keeping us from seeing the truth (although I find Ned's behavior towards and about Jon hard to explain if this is true).

We'll find out if we live long enough--

Yeah. Thats actually one of the things in favor I think for an R+L=J outcome, because the hints hes dropped tend to point that way.

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well, Targaryians, like Dany at the end of book 1, have no problem with fire, they love and draw power in some3 way from it, its a part of them...
Wrong. Reread page 24, from post 465 to post 474
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re-listening to the series from scratch right now, about to finish A Game Of Thrones...

Against - Jon burns his hand and the pain is unbearable... well, Targaryians, like Dany at the end of book 1, have no problem with fire, they love and draw power in some3 way from it, its a part of them...

Untrue. SSM has it that Targaryens are not "immune" to fire or burning; what happened to Dany was highly unusual. Besides, Viserys would like to dispute your statement, but he's choking on molten gold.

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I am having a hard time believing R+L=J because Jon does not seem to have a Targaryen sort of character. Although I agree that Rhaegar and Lyanna definitely did have a child by mutual decision, I think it could easily be Quentyn, since he has been hid away from the rest of Dorne for most of his life. It would also explain why there are so many chapters about Dorne and why Doran retained loyalty to Viserys even though he was a laughingstock.

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Another good question! For the R+L=Q scenario to work Doran would have to be so incredibly loyal to the Targaryens that he wouldn't care that Quentin is from the "desecration" of his sister's marriage (unless, of course, Elia was alright with it ;) ). Also, as I said, if R+L=Q what need would Doran have for Viserys and Dany?

I feel pretty confident in saying that R+L does not equal Q :)

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Another good question! For the R+L=Q scenario to work Doran would have to be so incredibly loyal to the Targaryens that he wouldn't care that Quentin is from the "desecration" of his sister's marriage (unless, of course, Elia was alright with it ;) ). Also, as I said, if R+L=Q what need would Doran have for Viserys and Dany?

I feel pretty confident in saying that R+L does not equal Q :)

If an R+L child pops up that isnt Jon, I think it would be in the free cities, and Ashara Dayne (whose death would have been greatly exaggerated) would be his "mother". She would be plausible as a mother (hair/eye color), she would be loyal to the Targs, and Ned would have trusted her with his sister's son. Her "death" would have been a relatively convenient cover, and if she was pregnant or had just had Jon, the old baby switcheroo would be quite feasible.

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Does anyone else worry that George might alter his original intentions since many readers have already inferred that R+L=J? I started coming to this board when A Storm of Swords was released, and by then, it was already a prevalent theory. Of course, I never figured it out myself until I came to these boards..and I'm not entirely sure the % of ASOIF readers like myself who seek out obscure internet communities...

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That is not a thing that competent writers do.

Exactly! Now, many fans' reaction to Darkwi-, I mean Darkstar, was not something that George anticipated :P But the theorizing about R+L=J happens precisely because George wants it to happen and wrote the story thus. Now, I'm not saying for sure that R+L=J (though I believe it does). What I'm saying is that George left a "trail of bread crumbs" to at least lead readers to think about it ;)

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Exactly! Now, many fans' reaction to Darkwi-, I mean Darkstar, was not something that George anticipated :P But the theorizing about R+L=J happens precisely because George wants it to happen and wrote the story thus. Now, I'm not saying for sure that R+L=J (though I believe it does). What I'm saying is that George left a "trail of bread crumbs" to at least lead readers to think about it ;)

It's not just "bread crumbs", it is a full narrative arc. Still with plenty of gaps in it, but.

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Yeah, but what if it is true? What if he keeps on feeding us bread crumbs through the last three books? So, at the last page of the books, won't we all just shut the book and go "Oh, so that's how it ended," with a disappointed look on our face?

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Yeah, but what if it is true? What if he keeps on feeding us bread crumbs through the last three books? So, at the last page of the books, won't we all just shut the book and go "Oh, so that's how it ended," with a disappointed look on our face?

If that is the case, then Martin is not a competent writer. Fortunately, I believe he is, so we have nothing to worry about.

The issue of Jon's parentage will be resolved, definitely and beyond a doubt. The only question is when this occurs.

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Hmm...interesting theory but if Quentin Martell were really the (legitimate or illegitimate) son of Rhaegar and Lyanna then he would be someone Doran would be much more loyal to than Viserys or Dany. If R+L=Q then Doran would have no need whatsoever of Viserys or Daenerys.

I don't think me theory is 100% certain but I think its at least plausible. Doran says that Dorne cannot stand on its own because it is so sparsely populated, so I think it would only make sense for him to want allies to support him in rebellion. Plus I also believe that Doran would be very loyal to all Targaryens because of his desire to avenge Elia's death in any way he can.

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I don't think me theory is 100% certain but I think its at least plausible. Doran says that Dorne cannot stand on its own because it is so sparsely populated, so I think it would only make sense for him to want allies to support him in rebellion. Plus I also believe that Doran would be very loyal to all Targaryens because of his desire to avenge Elia's death in any way he can.

Sorry, I don't think I expressed myself very well. Let me try again. What I am getting at is, if Quentin is actually Rhaegar's son and the legitimate heir to the throne, then Doran would not be working to put Viserys/Dany on the throne. He'd be working to put Quentin there. Doran had plans to marry his daughter Arrianne to Viserys in order to marry the Martell's to the Iron Throne and, when that fell through due to Viserys's death, he changed his plans to marry Quentin to Dany and achieve the same result. Either way his revenge is achieved and the Martell's standing is increased as well (back to where it would have been had Rhaegar become king and Elia Martell queen). All of this points toward Quentin actually being a Martell and not a Targaryen and heir to the Iron Throne.

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OK, one of you timeline followers back me up on this:

1. Battle at the Trident = Rhaegar killed

2. Arys still alive when Rhaegar killed = Succession passes to Viserys

3. Sack of Kings landing = Arys killed, Viserys is now king

4. John Connington takes Viserys to Free Cities and Robert usurps throne = Viserys still legitimate king

So, never in the course of the actual written evidence in any of the books does baby Ageon become king. Why would any offspring of R+L bump Viserys in the line of succession?

I'm not saying that R+L=J isn't so, just that said baby, legitimate or not, would not be king unless Viserys dies. So, why are there kings guard at the ToJ? By the time that Ned gets there, Viserys is the legitimate king. right?

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