The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Jon Targaryen]

With regard to the placement of females in the Targaryen succession, OIL has it right. At San Diego Comic-Con in 2006, I asked George why Viserys II inherited ahead of his nieces and George said that females inherited after all males after the Dance of the Dragons. Here is the SSM where I reported it. I mistyped "Viserys I" instead of "Viserys II" in my report.

[Edward the Great]

The important disctinction is

Jon - wouldn't kill anyone to press his claim

Dany - would kill everyone to press her claim

I thought that might lead to a dispute but it doesn't make sense for her to alienate the one person who could continue the Targaryen name, unless she legitimizes...Tyrion!

[Mezeh]

Mezeh,

Mormont clearly spoke of her gender as being a strike against her inheriting:

"and Daeron's daughter was a lackwit besides being female"

And while there probably wasn't any law forbidding female inheritance of the Iron Throne, there's a pretty clear tradition of it after the Dance of the Dragons. We have the example of Aeon III's three daughters being passed over in favout of their uncle, as mentioned a number of times in this thread.

This is exactly the point. Mormont apparently follows the order of succession according the law. Daeron’s daughter, Aerion’s son, Aemon, Aegon. If there was any Salic low there would’t be any need to mention Daeron’s daughter at all. Of course we see here an evidence of tradition not to put women on the throne if there are other alternatives. Aegon III's three daughters being passed over in favor of their uncle by their bothers Baelor the Blessed will - another evidence of absence of the law.

So if Daenerys is the only remaining heir there is nothing that could prevent her becoming the queen but if there are some male pretenders…

[wakiki]

OK, one of you timeline followers back me up on this:

1. Battle at the Trident = Rhaegar killed

2. Arys still alive when Rhaegar killed = Succession passes to Viserys

3. Sack of Kings landing = Arys killed, Viserys is now king

4. John Connington takes Viserys to Free Cities and Robert usurps throne = Viserys still legitimate king

So, never in the course of the actual written evidence in any of the books does baby Ageon become king. Why would any offspring of R+L bump Viserys in the line of succession?

I'm not saying that R+L=J isn't so, just that said baby, legitimate or not, would not be king unless Viserys dies. So, why are there kings guard at the ToJ? By the time that Ned gets there, Viserys is the legitimate king. right?

Raegar's children come before his brother in the line of succession, though, just like Robb's kids would come before Bran.

[Shewoman]

When Aerys dies, his oldest son becomes king. However, Rhaegar predeceases his father, so the kingship passes to Rhaegar's oldest son (Aegon, if he hadn't already been killed). Once Rhaegar and all of his male descendants have been eliminated, the kingship passes to Aerys' next oldest son: Viserys. He was killed by Khal Drogo, although probably few if any in Westeros know that. As far as I know, he had no children.

[Blackthrone]

As far as I know, {Viserys} had no children.

Which is really a little bit odd, if you think about it. He was definitely sexually active; knowing Illyrio's generosity, probably with a good selection of people, yet not once in thirteen years of exile does he knock someone up.

Poor Viserys, crazy and impotent.

[SFDanny]

As far as I know, he had no children.

It doesn't matter if he had children, as long as he didn't marry or legitimize any bastards - which we have no indication Viserys ever did, they aren't in the line of succession.

[Shewoman]

True, SFD. My point was that Viserys' line had ended.

That being said, I'm getting married tomorrow and have a lot of things to do to get ready (including a ring-bearer to toilet-train). Feel free to drink toasts of imaginary Arbor wine and eat delicious non-existent lemon cakes in honor of my fiance and me.

[A wilding]

... I'm getting married tomorrow ...

Hey, many congratulations.

::Downs a large glass of Arbor wine in honour of the event::

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

I'm getting married tomorrow and have a lot of things to do to get ready (including a ring-bearer to toilet-train). Feel free to drink toasts of imaginary Arbor wine and eat delicious non-existent lemon cakes in honor of my fiance and me.

Congratulations, Shewoman! :cheers:

Please tell us that you'll have jousting dwarves at the reception; no wedding celebration is complete without them. It is known.

Oh yeah, and stay away from the pigeon pie! :uhoh:

[Jon Targaryen]

That being said, I'm getting married tomorrow and have a lot of things to do to get ready (including a ring-bearer to toilet-train). Feel free to drink toasts of imaginary Arbor wine and eat delicious non-existent lemon cakes in honor of my fiance and me.

Congratulations, Shewoman!

[SFDanny]

True, SFD. My point was that Viserys' line had ended.

That being said, I'm getting married tomorrow and have a lot of things to do to get ready (including a ring-bearer to toilet-train). Feel free to drink toasts of imaginary Arbor wine and eat delicious non-existent lemon cakes in honor of my fiance and me.

Wonderful! Many, many congratulations and I hope you don't mind if I drink both Arbor Gold and some very real wine in wishing you the best of luck. Tell your fiance he is very lucky, and I'm sure I'm not the only boarder to think so. :cheers:

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Aah, I guess I'm a bit late, but congratulations from me too, Shewoman! :cheers:

[automne]

I'm getting married tomorrow

Congratulations!

[Mezeh]

When Aerys dies, his oldest son becomes king. However, Rhaegar predeceases his father, so the kingship passes to Rhaegar's oldest son (Aegon, if he hadn't already been killed). Once Rhaegar and all of his male descendants have been eliminated, the kingship passes to Aerys' next oldest son: Viserys. He was killed by Khal Drogo, although probably few if any in Westeros know that. As far as I know, he had no children.

First of all congratulations!

Then – the exact order of succession was – Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys [by law], Viserys [could be placed before Rhaenys by tradition], Daenerys, Robert Baratheon…

Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaenys, Viserys are surely dead. If Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar then he is right after Aegon who may be alive as well… Yet two surviving sons of Rhaegar may be too many…

[Shewoman]

Thanks for all the good wishes, everybody!

[SFDanny]

Thanks for all the good wishes, everybody!

Was the wedding all you hoped it would be? Did the ring-bearer make it through ok?

[Prince of the North]

Wonderful! Many, many congratulations and I hope you don't mind if I drink both Arbor Gold and some very real wine in wishing you the best of luck. Tell your fiance he is very lucky, and I'm sure I'm not the only boarder to think so. :cheers:

I would also like to send my congratulations, Shewoman! :cheers: And SFDanny, you are correct that you're not the only boarder to think so. Fortunately for me, there are many boarders who make my ears "perk up" when I see they've posted and both you and Shewoman are among them :)

[Jon Targaryen]

Then – the exact order of succession was – Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys [by law], Viserys [could be placed before Rhaenys by tradition], Daenerys, Robert Baratheon…

I think Rhaella should be mentioned there somewhere, perhaps after Daenerys and before Robert.

However, the “traditionâ€, as you put it, might lead to Robert being placed ahead of Daenerys and Rhaella, as well as Rhaenys. In the Targaryen succession, we have seen an uncle of the deceased king inherit ahead of the king’s sister, but it is questionable as to whether a second cousin through the distaff line of the heir in question (Robert relating to Daenerys) would inherit first, due to the tradition.

In any case, Rhaella should be accounted for somewhere.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

However, the “traditionâ€, as you put it, might lead to Robert being placed ahead of Daenerys and Rhaella, as well as Rhaenys. In the Targaryen succession, we have seen an uncle of the deceased king inherit ahead of the king’s sister, but it is questionable as to whether a second cousin through the distaff line of the heir in question (Robert relating to Daenerys) would inherit first, due to the tradition.

Since Robert's "claim" (that is, the one not based on his warhammer) derives from a more distant (female Targaryen Jaehaerys II's sister Rhaelle) I would say he comes behind Aerys' sister-wife Rhaella. If Robert's claim derived from a male Targaryen ancestor, and his own name was consequently Targaryen, it would be different, imo.