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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)


Werthead

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Yes, you are right Rhaella should be after Daenerys but Robert by no way (except usurpation) could be placed before her. By tradition Targaryen males were placed before Targaryen females but Robert was only ¼ Targaryen and by female line to boot.

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Robert's legitimate claim was, at best, abstract he won the throne with his war hammer. Thats why when Renly made his claim that usurped Stannis it did matter too him or his supporters.

Jon might have a good claim to the throne if L+R=J and they were married it was recognized; however, without an army to back him up it would not matter.

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OIL and Mezeh,

Yes, you are most likely right. I suppose the traditional Valyrian custom of marrying relatives kept the heirs "in the family", meaning united with the same interests. Also, a second cousin to Rhaegar like Robert would have typically had a Targaryen mother from somewhere else in the family tree, perhaps giving him a better claim than through Rhaelle. And it would have tied him tighter to the Targaryens politically. As it played out, Rhaelle went into the Baratheon line and her child married an Estermont, effectively making Robert a distant Targaryen relation.

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Robert had pretty good claim in the case if all Aerys descendants were dead. In real history there were cases then even more distant relatives ascended throne (Scotland at the end of 13 beginning of 14 century). But with Viserys and Daenerys alive it was an usurpation – a person with weaker claim got the throne by the reason that he was liked better. This is exactly the same that Renly tried to do. The breaking of rules of succession caused civil war that everyone in Westeros is very tired of so many people would cheer returning of their rightful queen (we see the emotion in prologue of AFFC). Yet it there is a person with better claim then Daenerys – she is in trouble.

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I'm currently rereading GoT and something that bugged me this time: Catelyn recalls how the servants around Winterfell were whispering about Ashara Dayne and telling the tale of their Lord (Ned) defeating Arthur Dayne and then presenting his sword to Dayne's sister. So it's no secret that Eddard Stark and Arthur Dayne fought. How come no one, anywhere, is asking why they fought and where?

It's like,

"Oh yeah, Ned Stark took out Arthur Dayne during the war in single combat. Must of been badass!"

"Yeah, sounds like a real nailbiter. Say, where'd that go down? On the Trident?"

"Nah, that was Robert vs. Rhaegar."

"I know that! What I'm asking is, was Dayne there by Rhaegar's side during the fight and Ned took him on while Robert fought Rhaegar?"

"Um...nope, don't think so. I heard Ned showed up to find Rhaegar lying dead in the stream and people from both sides searching for the rubies from his breastplate."

"Huh. So where was Stark and Dayne's fight and why wasn't Dayne by the side of any Targs?"

"Good question. Hey you wanna go see if the cook is finished with those lemon pies?"

"Yeah! Let's go!"

It's like people know the story of Ned and his boys facing off against the Kingsguard somewhere during the war but no one in Westeros is bothering to ask why or where. I wonder how Ned tells the tale to people like Robert when they meet up near the end of the war.

Ned: "Yeah, uh, well...you see, uh, Dayne and a couple others were totally slacking off when I found them and I overheard them talking about how they were tired of doing their duty and protecting the King and were gonna start a band. So I cut them down for their oathbreaking slackassery. Done deal. Let's go eat!"

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I think Ned has to tell Robert he killed the Tower of Joy trio when he tried to rescue Lyanna. I don't see Robert having trouble with that much of the story. He knows someone is keeping his dear betrothed away from him - why not Rhaegar's most trusted knights? The real question comes in not Robert's response, he is only willing to believe Lyanna was kept by force because otherwise she would surely would have been by his side planning their nuptials, but rather it comes in the questions of people like Varys. We know Robert and Ned reconciled over Lyanna's death, so obviously Ned told him something of her death. What Ned does, I think, is craft a tale that Robert wants to believe. He tells Robert that he strayed with a common woman, just like the king had done a thousand times, and that explains Jon. He tells Robert that the kingsguard hid Lyanna away, on Rhaegar's orders, in a lonely tower in the foothills of the Red Mountains of Dorne and refused to give her up when he found them. She died of a fever contracted in her long confinement just as Ned and Howland find her. Such a tale is something the grieving king would eat up, and something Ned can tell with conviction because almost all of it is true - the Wylla part is likely made up. He just leaves out some very important details. Some of those are obscured by the second part of the tale; the part of the tale involving Ashara. Ned doesn't hide the fact he went to Starfall. That provides the gossip for most other inquiring minds who want more of a story. I think it works for most people, but it likely doesn't fool at least two people - Varys and Ser Barristan. Both of these two would likely know something of Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna and suspect there must be more, particularly to explain why all three kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy. However, both are new to Robert's service and have reason not to want to tell the king his love of his life really loved the Prince of Dragonstone. I don't think I'd want to tell that piece of news the new king, would you? And assuming they did wonder why the three kingsguard were not on Dragonstone and what really happened at the Tower, then telling the king his best friend lied to him might not be something you'd want to do either, at least without a lot of proof. Anyway, that's my take on this part of the story.

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Both of these two would likely know something of Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna and suspect there must be more, particularly to explain why all three kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy. However, both are new to Robert's service and have reason not to want to tell the king his love of his life really loved the Prince of Dragonstone.

Varys I can't answer for, but Barristan at least claims not to have known Rhaegar very well. I'm not sold that he would have any inkling. Also, even if they knew "of Rhaegar's feelings," that does not extend to a knowledge that Lyanna loved him. If indeed she did, or he did for that matter.

I suspect most people assume the Ned-Dayne duel took place in Kng's Landing during the Sack and Ned simply doesn't trouble to correct them.

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Also, even if they knew "of Rhaegar's feelings," that does not extend to a knowledge that Lyanna loved him.

Rhaegar's purported feelings are no secret, at least:

"The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you other men were fighting too, and I was one."

I suspect most people assume the Ned-Dayne duel took place in Kng's Landing during the Sack and Ned simply doesn't trouble to correct them.

That's seems incredibly improbable to me. Jaime's kingslaying would not have been possible with three other KG there, and most everyone would know that.

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Varys I can't answer for, but Barristan at least claims not to have known Rhaegar very well. I'm not sold that he would have any inkling. Also, even if they knew "of Rhaegar's feelings," that does not extend to a knowledge that Lyanna loved him. If indeed she did, or he did for that matter.

I did not mean to imply that either two had well rounded knowledge of the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. In fact I've often argued that it was unlikely that Ser Barristan knew the full tale. I'm only saying that these two are the most likely to doubt Ned's story. Ser Barristan raises questions more because of his long relationship with the trio of the Kingsguard that Ned kills. I believe he has to ask himself, if he doesn't already know, what the hell were all of them doing at the Tower of Joy? Assuming he doesn't know, then he surely believes these three must have had a very good reason for not being with Viserys. Heck, if Ned wonders why they are at the Tower, then surely Selmy must think twice over the question. It may be he has deluded himself to think they reached the same conclusion about the young king's sanity that he did, but were unable to bend the knee to Robert - or in this case to Ned. Regardless, I think he would have reason to question Ned's story that few others would consider.

Varys is a special case. As the Master of Whisperers he is professionally interested in finding out the truth, but just how does he do that with no real witnesses he can question? Ned won't talk about it, Howland likely disappears back into the Neck, and this mystery woman named Wylla is secure in one of the most unfriendly cities, to Robert's cause anyway, that exists in Westeros. He may try to send spies to Starfall to find out information on Wylla, but to everyone there she proclaims to be Jon's mother. It doesn't seem to me like he gets very far in testing out Ned's tale. And as we see later with the story of Jaime and Cersei's incest, he doesn't tell Robert he should question Ned's tale because he won't risk his own neck without ironclad proof. Whether he would if he had such proof is another question that goes to Varys real motives, but it is easy to see him shutting up about any doubts.

I suspect most people assume the Ned-Dayne duel took place in Kng's Landing during the Sack and Ned simply doesn't trouble to correct them.

Yeah, I'm with OIL on this one. A Ned-Dayne duel at King's Landing would have been known to almost everyone. It's simply a non-starter. Besides, Ned's troops travel with him to Storm's End before he leaves them to go with his six companions to the Tower of Joy and then on to Starfall. They are telling rumors generated after he returns to them, likely still at Storm's End, a long time AFTER the sack of King's Landing.

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Varys I can't answer for, but Barristan at least claims not to have known Rhaegar very well.

Was that something Barristan said to Dany? He clearly doesn't trust her with the full truth of what happened, so I take everything he tells her with a grain of salt.

I also subscribe to the theory that Barristan went to Jon before Dany.

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Not sure if anyone's mentioned this but while reading AGoT i noticed that when Ned's talking about Jon instead of saying "There's no place for a bastard in King's Landing" he says "There's no place for a boy with a bastard's name in King's Landing." Implying that Jon's not actually a bastard, he just has a bastard's name.

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Varys probably has some serious suspicions if not outright factual knowledge of what went down. We're talking about a guy who knows all about the events at Winterfell BEFORE Ned and Robert finish getting down the Kingsroad to King's Landing. His network is not only far reaching but pretty quick in its delivery of info. Remember how freaked out it made Catelyn. She referred to his ability to know things as unnatural.

Now Ned and Reed are the only ones to walk away from the ToJ, but that doesn't mean Varys doesn't know that there was a situation there and that it is the spot where Dayne and Ned had their showdown. He probably knew what Dayne was gonna eat for breakfast before Dayne did. If Varys hears details about the Trident and hears that Dayne and the other two KG were not present, he's gonna start digging. He lives for it.

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Remember how freaked out it made Catelyn. She referred to his ability to know things as unnatural.

Varys was undoubtedly watching her conversation with Littlefinger through a peep hole in the castle.

Outside of KL, I'm afraid his knowledge is limited.

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Boredom Heights, I don't think there's really any difference between "a boy with a bastard's name" and a bastard. If Jon had gone to KL and told people he was Jon Snow, anyone who knew what the name for bastards is in the north would know he was a bastard.

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I think that the point BoredomHeights is making though, is that this may be another case of Ned avoiding telling a direct lie, as when he said Jon was "of my blood". By using the circumlocution of "with a bastard name" he may avoiding saying that Jon is a bastard, when it is not true. So it could be more evidence of R+L=J.

Though personally I doubt that Ned thinks there was any legal marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, as Ned thinks about Jon later when musing about why the Gods give men the lusts that result in bastards.

And welcome to the board BoredomHeights.

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Now Ned and Reed are the only ones to walk away from the ToJ, but that doesn't mean Varys doesn't know that there was a situation there and that it is the spot where Dayne and Ned had their showdown. He probably knew what Dayne was gonna eat for breakfast before Dayne did. If Varys hears details about the Trident and hears that Dayne and the other two KG were not present, he's gonna start digging. He lives for it.

First, Varys knows the Kingsguard trio were not at the Trident before Rhaegar leaves King's Landing. Jaime as much as tells us so in the scene where he begs to go with Rhaegar while the army is outside the gates of King's Landing in preparation to travel to the Trident. He mentions Darry and Ser Barristan by name and it is highly unlikely Varys doesn't know which of the Kingsguard is traveling with the Prince to fight Robert.

Regarding Dayne's location, from the information we have it doesn't appear he has been seen since Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna. So, my assumption is that he has been with her the entire time, and in hiding from one and all since that time. If Varys knows the location of the Tower of Joy and its identity as the secret hideout, then he likely tells no one. At the very least, he is a unlikely source for Ned of the information, given Ned's distrust of him and the fact neither he or Robert send anyone out to find Lyanna until after the lifting of the siege of Storm's End.

I'd bet that Ned doesn't make any secret of where he encounters Dayne and the others. There is no point of doing so. The secret he has to keep from Varys, and everyone else, is the nature of his promise to Lyanna, and, if Jon was there, his nephew's existence. In fact, I'd bet Varys has had someone visit the Tower of Joy location, if he didn't do it himself, long ago. The question is what can he find except a torn down tower and nine graves nearby? Unless he knows of Lyanna's pregnancy from sources before Ned arrives, then he really has nothing to challenge Lord Stark's story. He has to find some witnesses to the event who aren't already buried under a cairn. That doesn't leave a lot of known choices, but if there are any others out there, I'm sure he looked to find them.

I'd be very much surprised if he didn't try to track down Wylla, but what information can he get there? Wylla claims to be Jon's mother, and it looks like the inhabitants of Starfall think she is as well. So, what does he get for his inquiries? The story that Ned, Wylla, and maybe Howland Reed came riding through the gates of Starfall with a child and Ser Arthur's sword? It makes one suspicious, but it isn't proof to present to a king. Now, if there was someone else with them - say a maester who is put on the next boat out of Westeros - then I'm sure Varys would have tried to hunt such a person down. That's the beauty of long extended stays, eight years or so - for instance, in remote parts of the world. It makes people hard to find and question.

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I'd bet that Ned doesn't make any secret of where he encounters Dayne and the others. There is no point of doing so. The secret he has to keep from Varys, and everyone else, is the nature of his promise to Lyanna, and, if Jon was there, his nephew's existence. In fact, I'd bet Varys has had someone visit the Tower of Joy location, if he didn't do it himself, long ago. The question is what can he find except a torn down tower and nine graves nearby? Unless he knows of Lyanna's pregnancy from sources before Ned arrives, then he really has nothing to challenge Lord Stark's story. He has to find some witnesses to the event who aren't already buried under a cairn. That doesn't leave a lot of known choices, but if there are any others out there, I'm sure he looked to find them.

But see, that's the point. None of the whisperings and rumor spreading seem to mention the location of this particular showdown during the war. They talk about Ned vs. Dayne. Check. They talk about Ashara Dayne and Ned presenting the sword of the morning. Check. They don't mention where or why Ned fights Dayne. And not just the servants at Winterfell but all of the lords and ladies as well. No singers are singing about it. No side jabs from rivals. "Easy, Ned. Don't go all Tower of Joy on me, man." Does Jaime even think about it later when he's remembering Dayne? I can't remember. They certainly make mention of the Trident and King's Landing and several other locations where pretty major events occurred. But no one in the story seems to care about the details of an Eddard Stark vs. Arthur Dayne fight.

And we're simply saying that someone like Varys would think more about it than just nodding and smiling about Stark vs. Dayne.

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Don't mean to interrupt the flow of the thread, but the first I ever heard of this theory was on these boards and there are hundreds of posts (possibly thousands looking through older topics and spin-off topics). Since that takes way too much time to read through, I was hoping to ask a very simple question - has GRRM ever stated anything on the R+L=J theory, or is it entirely based on fan speculation?

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