The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Edward the Great]

has GRRM ever stated anything on the R+L=J theory,

He's said he will reveal Jon's mother before the end.

If I see x + 3 = 7, and conclude x = 4, that isn't speculation.

[SFDanny]

But see, that's the point. None of the whisperings and rumor spreading seem to mention the location of this particular showdown during the war. They talk about Ned vs. Dayne. Check. They talk about Ashara Dayne and Ned presenting the sword of the morning. Check. They don't mention where or why Ned fights Dayne. And not just the servants at Winterfell but all of the lords and ladies as well. No singers are singing about it. No side jabs from rivals. "Easy, Ned. Don't go all Tower of Joy on me, man." Does Jaime even think about it later when he's remembering Dayne? I can't remember. They certainly make mention of the Trident and King's Landing and several other locations where pretty major events occurred. But no one in the story seems to care about the details of an Eddard Stark vs. Arthur Dayne fight.

And we're simply saying that someone like Varys would think more about it than just nodding and smiling about Stark vs. Dayne.

OK, let's clear something up. There is a huge difference between all of Westeros being told the location of the Tower of Joy and the details of events that occurred there, and Ned keeping all of those facts a secret to only himself and Howland Reed. What I'm saying is Ned has no reason to not tell Robert about these events - except for some very important details. The rest of Westeros knows Ned leaves Storm's End with a small band of friends, and he later shows up - minus five of his party - having claimed to have killed Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, Ser Gerold Hightower, and he is also in possession of a new child he also claims as his own, and in mourning over the death of his long lost sister. The also know he went to Starfall and Ashara Dayne dies of apparent suicide shortly thereafter. We know he and Robert reconcile over Lyanna's death, so we know he tells Robert about it. All of this is wide spread enough to constitute general knowledge once the rumors begin to percolate through the various layers of gossip mongers. The actual details of the events of the Tower of Joy, including its location and name, must be part of any story Ned tells to Robert, and if he tells them to Robert then Varys knows them soon afterwards. That doesn't mean the bards pay homage to the great battle of the Joyous Tower, or that tours spring up to visit the eight cairns (I think I said nine before, but it's eight) in the Red Mountain foothills. It doesn't mean the details of what Ned tells Robert are general knowledge. What it does mean is the Varys likely knows more than he is admitting, but he doesn't have to have had access to the full truth. To put it another way, yes, Varys nods and smiles about many topics including this one, all the while not revealing all of what he knows. That doesn't necessarily translate to him knowing Lyanna gave birth to Jon or that Jon is Rhaegar's son.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Varys was undoubtedly watching her conversation with Littlefinger through a peep hole in the castle.

Outside of KL, I'm afraid his knowledge is limited.

I don't think so. Varys knew who the Archmaesters of the Citadel were about to elect as the new Grandmaester inside their top-secret Conclave in Oldtown. His knowledge extends well beyond KL.

[Righteous Reader]

He's said he will reveal Jon's mother before the end.

If I see x + 3 = 7, and conclude x = 4, that isn't speculation.

Well, basic arithmetic is more controlled than literature, where an entire universe is subject to the whims of one individual. Martin is notorious for changing his mind, and could even decide, as Dostoevsky did in Notes from Underground, that 2 x 2 = 5. So, despite such tendency, I'm wondering if the man himself has said something to add fuel to the fire, otherwise it is essentially a bunch of fans using facts to infer an uncertain conclusion, which very much fits the bill of "fan speculation!"

[Grim Shady]

OK, let's clear something up. There is a huge difference between all of Westeros being told the location of the Tower of Joy and the details of events that occurred there, and Ned keeping all of those facts a secret to only himself and Howland Reed. What I'm saying is Ned has no reason to not tell Robert about these events - except for some very important details. The rest of Westeros knows Ned leaves Storm's End with a small band of friends, and he later shows up - minus five of his party - having claimed to have killed Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, Ser Gerold Hightower, and he is also in possession of a new child he also claims as his own, and in mourning over the death of his long lost sister. The also know he went to Starfall and Ashara Dayne dies of apparent suicide shortly thereafter. We know he and Robert reconcile over Lyanna's death, so we know he tells Robert about it. All of this is wide spread enough to constitute general knowledge once the rumors begin to percolate through the various layers of gossip mongers. The actual details of the events of the Tower of Joy, including its location and name, must be part of any story Ned tells to Robert, and if he tells them to Robert then Varys knows them soon afterwards. That doesn't mean the bards pay homage to the great battle of the Joyous Tower, or that tours spring up to visit the eight cairns (I think I said nine before, but it's eight) in the Red Mountain foothills. It doesn't mean the details of what Ned tells Robert are general knowledge. What it does mean is the Varys likely knows more than he is admitting, but he doesn't have to have had access to the full truth. To put it another way, yes, Varys nods and smiles about many topics including this one, all the while not revealing all of what he knows. That doesn't necessarily translate to him knowing Lyanna gave birth to Jon or that Jon is Rhaegar's son.

OK, obviously you're unfamiliar with my style of posting. It's ok. It's hard to get used to.

When I type out things like, "Hey Ned, that's a mighty fine jacket you got there." I'm not actually asking for Martin to put something like that in the books, etc.

You're taking things too seriously and literally. So we'll just move on since we're not going to see eye to eye with conflicting styles.

I started out by mentioning the lack of mentionings of the ToJ by anybody but Ned it seems. I didn't mean that they sent out a telegram with a rebate check attached to every Tom, Dick, and Harry in Westeros.

Just an observation.

[Mezeh]

I'm currently rereading GoT and something that bugged me this time: Catelyn recalls how the servants around Winterfell were whispering about Ashara Dayne and telling the tale of their Lord (Ned) defeating Arthur Dayne and then presenting his sword to Dayne's sister.

Yes and this place is another proof for R+L=J. Catelyn is sure that Ned deeply loved Jon’s mother but during the whole AGOT the only woman Ned’s recalls with love is his sister. He never thought about Ashara Dayne at all and never impressed any guilt towards her while he do feels guilty and he fills guilty towards Jon.

[SFDanny]

You're taking things too seriously and literally. So we'll just move on since we're not going to see eye to eye with conflicting styles.

Not really, but ok, no problem.

[Shewoman]

Of course, if Ashara really is Jon's mother and Martin is saving that for a Big Reveal, Ned can't think about Ashara in any way that would reveal that to us before Martin wants it known.

[Gold Storm]

Of course, if Ashara really is Jon's mother and Martin is saving that for a Big Reveal, Ned can't think about Ashara in any way that would reveal that to us before Martin wants it known.

I do not know about that; he could have thought of Ashara as his first love before he was slated to marry Cat. Brandon was to marry Cat, so it would not be unreasonable that Ned had a love before Cat. He could think of her as his first/lost love before Cat and he was lucky to have two loves in his life. That way he could think about her without betraying any secreats about her and him.

[Shewoman]

I didn't say he couldn't think of Ashara at all (although as far as I recall he doesn't think of her); I said he couldn't think of her in a way that would spoil a revelation Martin hasn't given us yet if Martin wants that to be a big deal.

[Blackthrone]

But the thing is, Ned never thinks about Ashara, not even in a non-spoiler way. Hell, he thinks about Cat more often than her. The number one reason why I don't believe N+A=J: Ned seems to have completely put Ashara behind him. Be a little hard to do if his son by her was running around before his eyes, yeah?

[Gold Storm]

Even when Robert brings Ashara up, Ned does not have any feelings or regrets about her or anything that happened. If N+A=J, he would have thought something about her, or when he was thinking about Jon.

[Serc]

I'd be interested in knowing if he could be legitimized as a Targ by Stannis, imo.

But that doesn't matter, does it, since he swore his vows, and seems to be like Ned about them and not about to break them?

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

I'd be interested in knowing if he could be legitimized as a Targ by Stannis, imo.

What a strange idea. Setting aside how utterly out of character it would be for Stannis, it's a Catch 22 situation. If Stannis legitimizes Jon as a Targ, then Stannis wouldn't be the lawful king, and if he wasn't the lawful king he wouldn't have the power of legitimizing bastards. Of course one could bring up Viserys who was ahead of Stannis and Robert in the lawful succession but who was irrelevant to the Baratheon claim, but Viserys had quit the realm, which has sometimes been used to justify forfeiture in RL history, while Jon never did.

OK, so all the competing claims have legal ambiguities, blah blah blah, but even so, it would really be bizarre for Stannis to strengthen the claim of potential rival like that.

[Mezeh]

But the thing is, Ned never thinks about Ashara, not even in a non-spoiler way. Hell, he thinks about Cat more often than her. The number one reason why I don't believe N+A=J: Ned seems to have completely put Ashara behind him. Be a little hard to do if his son by her was running around before his eyes, yeah?

This is simply does not fit to his character. Sersei directly accused Ned with lady Ashara death because Ned supposedly stole her child and killed her brother but even that didn’t trigger anything in Ned so he definitely feels no guilt here. Yet there is a story of Ned and Ashara love that lives in Starfall… Since the story doesn’t seem to be true – then it was invented to cover something? But what exactly and who in Starfall invented the story?

[Mezeh]

What a strange idea. Setting aside how utterly out of character it would be for Stannis, it's a Catch 22 situation. If Stannis legitimizes Jon as a Targ, then Stannis wouldn't be the lawful king, and if he wasn't the lawful king he wouldn't have the power of legitimizing bastards.

The same true is for Daenerys as well. She couldn’t legitimize Jon as Rhaegar’s son because in the case he would be ahead of her in the line of succession. She could only recognize his as legitimate heir but only in the case that there would be some reliable witness of Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage.

[Gold Storm]

Stannis would never legitimize Jon as a Targ, it would make a new claimant for his throne. Dany could not make Jon legit because she would need proof that L and R were married and it was recorded. Jon could be raised as a Targ bastard but not as a person who can become king.

[Errant Bard]

Dany could not make Jon legit because she would need proof that L and R were married and it was recorded.

Proof? She needs nothing but the will. Robb himself made a bastard his heir for the throne of the North. The king can make anyone "legit" even those with no blood tie, if he decides so.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Dany could not make Jon legit because she would need proof that L and R were married and it was recorded.

Not really. Aegon IV didn't pull proofs out that he was married to his various mistresses to legitimise all his bastards. A king removing the taint of bastardy doesn't require any marriage, it's purely a matter of royal fiat. Conversely, if there was a marriage, no kings are required...it's just a matter of uncovering the old facts, not creating new facts.

[Gold Storm]

Aegon IV legitimizing his bastards led directly too the Blackfyre Wars. The people do not want a bastard on the Iron Throne.

Robb did legitimize Jon, but no one cares. Whatever fragments are left of Robb's army, are in no position too crown Jon even if they wanted to follow him.

The only way Dany would even consider legitimizing Jon would be if she saw irrefutable proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and she saw Jon as a long lost good brother whom she always wanted. Legitimizing Jon would cost Dany her rightful throne.