The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Prince Rhaegar Targaryen]

Hum, just a random thought, I am at work at the moment so i can't look it up.

Did Robb already alter the order of succession simply BY legitimizing Jon, or did he just "decree" that Jon would be his heir and then legitimated him to get things done more smoothly? What I'm getting at, are Jon's legitimization and Jon being made Robb's heir two things, or one and the same?

[John of Greywater Watch]

Hum, just a random thought, I am at work at the moment so i can't look it up.

Did Robb already alter the order of succession simply BY legitimizing Jon, or did he just "decree" that Jon would be his heir and then legitimated him to get things done more smoothly? What I'm getting at, are Jon's legitimization and Jon being made Robb's heir two things, or one and the same?

From the discussion with Cat I took it to be two things. He talked off legitimizing him, and then he talked about naming him his heir.

[Mezeh]

""Mother." There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. "You forget. My father had four sons."

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

"Jon's more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell."

It Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life."

"So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

"Jon would never harm a son of mine."

"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."

"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa … your own sister, trueborn . . . "

". . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father's head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya's gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they'll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice."

Catelyn tells about her daughter rights before Robb tells about naming Jon’s his heir but after Robb stated his intent to legitimize Jon. So it seems that Jon will be placed ahead of Sansa and Arya by the act of legitimization along. Actually Robb never mentioned that he needs anything but to legitimize Jon in order to make him his heir.

[Jon Targaryen]

Mezeh,

You are assuming the absence of Robb or Catelyn saying Robb would have to formally place Jon ahead of Sansa after legitimization means Jon would automatically go there. I think it is equally likely Robb and Catelyn are assuming Robb would formally place Jon first after legitimization.

If that makes sense.

I don't think there is proof for either contention.

And the discussion is starting to drift from R+L=J. I think if Jon is a Targaryen bastard, Dany might just marry him without legitimizing him, if legitimizing Jon would automatically make him the new King. Their children take the name Targaryen.

[dezebel]

I've been following this thread for a while. I'm curious what you all think about this bit of speculation I will posit:

We all know that Martin has said that Jon's mother will eventually be revealed, right?

If Stannis (or anyone) were to legitimize Jon as a Stark, it would certainly put him in more of a public eye. Then wouldn't it be possible for someone with knowledge of R+L=J to challenge him and reveal to everyone that he is in fact a Targ? This would throw a wrench into Stannis' plans and surely Dany would somehow find out about it. My question is, what characters are still alive that could possibly reveal Jon's true family/mother/heritage? I haven't read AFFC in a while--so if I'm missing an important plot element my apologies.

Oh, and I thought Dany could not have any more children?

[SFDanny]

I've been following this thread for a while. I'm curious what you all think about this bit of speculation I will posit:

We all know that Martin has said that Jon's mother will eventually be revealed, right?

If Stannis (or anyone) were to legitimize Jon as a Stark, it would certainly put him in more of a public eye. Then wouldn't it be possible for someone with knowledge of R+L=J to challenge him and reveal to everyone that he is in fact a Targ? This would throw a wrench into Stannis' plans and surely Dany would somehow find out about it. My question is, what characters are still alive that could possibly reveal Jon's true family/mother/heritage? I haven't read AFFC in a while--so if I'm missing an important plot element my apologies.

Oh, and I thought Dany could not have any more children?

First, welcome to the board, dezebel. Always nice to have new people check into this thread.

To your question, it is something that is very much still debated concerning the number of people still alive who may have possible knowledge that will help reveal Jon's parentage. Assuming Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then the only person we know that was at the Tower of Joy and therefore may know something about both Lyanna's death and Jon's birth is Howland Reed. There is also a lot of speculation concerning who constitutes the "they" who found Ned after Lyanna's death, and in that regard Wylla's name comes up most often. I've also pushed the idea that a maester would likely be present at an aristocratic birth, and even put out the idea that Marwyn could have been that maester. Any support staff or visitors to the Tower of Joy might be able to shed some light on the matter as well, but we know no names to tie to such roles. Knowing Ned travels from the Tower of Joy to Starfall also adds the Daynes as a possible source of important information. Ned Dayne has given us some clues, and his aunt Allyria may know much more. Also the Reed children obviously know something from their father's stories, so they could well revel more.

Other scenarios start with the names of Ashara Dayne and Wylla. If either really is Jon's mother, and in Ashara's case if she is still alive, they would be able to obviously shed a lot of light on the subject. Other names that come up as sources of information on this topic include Varys, Ser Barristan, and, again if he is still alive, Rhaegar's friend Jon Connington. Hope that helps.

edit: let me add a whole category of sources. Those who know something that helps to reveal the truth, but who don't know their information means anything. We may learn things from people like Jaime and Ser Barristan who recount the period, but don't know the whole truth. In that regard, it is even possible that Martin could reveal the secret of Jon's parents to us, his readers, but leave it a mystery to his characters. Unlikely, but possible.

To your second question, yes, Dany is said to not be able to have any children. Is that the truth? No one knows, and we only have Mirri Maz Duur's word on the subject. While she may have told Daenerys the truth, she is hardly a reliable source.

[SFDanny]

oops, double post

[dezebel]

First, welcome to the board, dezebel. Always nice to have new people check into this thread.

To your question, it is something that is very much still debated concerning the number of people still alive who may have possible knowledge that will help reveal Jon's parentage. Assuming Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then the only person we know that was at the Tower of Joy and therefore may know something about both Lyanna's death and Jon's birth is Howland Reed. There is also a lot of speculation concerning who constitutes the "they" who found Ned after Lyanna's death, and in that regard Wylla's name comes up most often. I've also pushed the idea that a maester would likely be present at an aristocratic birth, and even put out the idea that Marwyn could have been that maester. Any support staff or visitors to the Tower of Joy might be able to shed some light on the matter as well, but we know no names to tie to such roles. Knowing Ned travels from the Tower of Joy to Starfall also adds the Daynes as a possible source of important information. Ned Dayne has given us some clues, and his aunt Allyria may know much more. Also the Reed children obviously know something from their father's stories, so they could well revel more.

Other scenarios start with the names of Ashara Dayne and Wylla. If either really is Jon's mother, and in Ashara's case if she is still alive, they would be able to obviously shed a lot of light on the subject. Other names that come up as sources of information on this topic include Varys, Ser Barristan, and, again if he is still alive, Rhaegar's friend Jon Connington. Hope that helps.

edit: let me add a whole category of sources. Those who know something that helps to reveal the truth, but who don't know their information means anything. We may learn things from people like Jaime and Ser Barristan who recount the period, but don't know the whole truth. In that regard, it is even possible that Martin could reveal the secret of Jon's parents to us, his readers, but leave it a mystery to his characters. Unlikely, but possible.

To your second question, yes, Dany is said to not be able to have any children. Is that the truth? No one knows, and we only have Mirri Maz Duur's word on the subject. While she may have told Daenerys the truth, she is hardly a reliable source.

Thanks for a most comprehensive answer! I also think it would be unlikely that Martin would reveal such heavy information in a subtle way. I am thinking/hoping that it will be very dramatic.

As for Dany--people mentioned that she would perhaps want to marry Jon... But if SHE believes (whether it's true or not) that she is unable to have any more children, what would be the point in her pursuing him outside of familial curiousity? If anything, Jon would only be standing in the way of her claim to the throne.

[Edward the Great]

Then wouldn't it be possible for someone with knowledge of R+L=J to challenge him and reveal to everyone that he is in fact a Targ?

There is considerable circumstantial evidence that Barristan Selmy knows Jon's heritage. Given the notion that Jon is a trueborn Targ is based on circumstantial evidence, it would be odd to dismiss one notion and not the other.

[Errant Bard]

There is considerable circumstantial evidence that Barristan Selmy knows Jon's heritage.

No there is not.

As for Dany--people mentioned that she would perhaps want to marry Jon... But if SHE believes (whether it's true or not) that she is unable to have any more children, what would be the point in her pursuing him outside of familial curiousity? If anything, Jon would only be standing in the way of her claim to the throne.

Love and sex, and the decision to make him her heir, marrying him doesn't mean he would have higher authority than her, but it would mean that she trusts him anyway to co-rule the realm.

[Mezeh]

There is considerable circumstantial evidence that Barristan Selmy knows Jon's heritage. Given the notion that Jon is a trueborn Targ is based on circumstantial evidence, it would be odd to dismiss one notion and not the other.

I wrote about possible evidence in thos thread several days ago:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showt...3416&st=600

Selmy claimed knowing some Rhaegar’s secrets and he may we aware first of second hand about supposed Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage but it is not likely that he knew or even suspected about Lyanna’s pregnancy. While explaining the reasons of his deflection Selmy said that he accepted Robert’s proposition when Daenerys Selmy mentioned only Viserys who was unpromising already there. Daenerys most probably was still unborn and female to boot. But the existence or Rhaegar’s rightful heir or even suspicion that such heir exists would have changed things for Selmy and would make Targaryen cause not so completely and desperately loss like it seemed after Rhaegar and his children death.

Besides any trueborn child of Rhaegar would have better claim then Daenerys so Selmy must have been looking for him – not for her. Remember he went to Free Cities apparently before he learned about the dragons.

[Mezeh]

Actually there is another person who may know about Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage though she barely could be a witness – Sarella. She stated in the prologue to AFFC that she suspects that the dragon has three heads. She clearly has a great interest in dragons and she almost for sure is seeking for dragon heads. Now it is possible that Rhaegar told about Lyanna to his [first] wife – princess Elia who was close to her brother Oberyn. Oberyn may have slipped something is Sarella’s presence. We also know that between prologue of AFFC and the last chapter Sarella gained Marwyn confidence so it is possible that they discussed the possible dragon heads matter.

[Maia]

Ned Dayne has given us some clues, and his aunt Allyria may know much more.

Granted, Allyria must have been alive during these events, but considering her lengthy betrothal, she was a small child. IMHO, she likely knows nothing more than what she told Edric.

[Mezeh]

Granted, Allyria must have been alive during these events, but considering her lengthy betrothal, she was a small child. IMHO, she likely knows nothing more than what she told Edric.

Yes somebody else has invented the story she told to the nephew – so some person in Starfall should know more then her.

[SFDanny]

Granted, Allyria must have been alive during these events, but considering her lengthy betrothal, she was a small child. IMHO, she likely knows nothing more than what she told Edric.

I wasn't trying to limit my response to only those who were alive, or were first hand witnesses to events, but rather wanted to give a list of folks from which we might get information. In Allyria's case I think she may know something of what her parents knew from Ned's visit to Starfall. Seemingly, young Ned Dayne didn't know much about the matter.

[Mezeh]

Lady Ashara is a possible witness and she was in Starfall before she commited suicide (or faked it). It is quite possible that she shared her knowledge with somebody of her family before that.

[Edward the Great]

Sarella.

Mezeh, your grammar is a mess but I totally missed that clue.

There is strong circumstantial evidence that Barristan Selmy visited the Wall before he went to Daenerys. This has been discussed in other threads and I wasn't the one who noticed the hints.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

There is strong circumstantial evidence that Barristan Selmy visited the Wall before he went to Daenerys. This has been discussed in other threads and I wasn't the one who noticed the hints.

If by "strong circumstantial evidence" you mean "no evidence at all, and practically impossible to fit into the timeframe" then sure.

[SFDanny]

Mezeh, your grammar is a mess but I totally missed that clue.

Not everyone who posts here has English as their first language, and it's not considered polite to point out mistakes people make in trying to contribute through the confines of what is to many a foreign language. Mezeh always posts insightful comments whatever problems he may have with English grammar.

To Mezah's point about Sarella, it reflects on her teacher. Marwyn is seemingly one of the few Westerosi "experts" on magic, and magical prophecy in particular. It is one of the reasons I've thought he might be a good candidate as a confidante of Rhaegar as well as the maester on hand to attend the birth of Lyanna's child (assuming there was one.) If it is so, he could have passed some important knowledge to Sarella, though I doubt he would tell her many truly critical details. It makes sense she knows about "three-headed dragon" part of prophecy as Marwyn's student. It would surprise me a great deal if she knows much, if anything, about the details of the Tower of Joy events. That doesn't mean that what she knows couldn't be very helpful to the readers of the series in figuring out some important areas of the story.

[Jon Targaryen]

Re: Sarella

Simply put, Azor Ahai and the events of R+L=J, if it happened, are two different things. Sarella very likely knows about the former and very likely does not know about the latter.