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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)


Werthead

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We don't actually know that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance, although it is widely assumed.

Martin has said that the war began a year or two after Harrenhal and lasted about a year. (This is from the Citadel.)

Benjen was alive when the war ended. After that he took the Black.

I honestly assumed Benjen took the Black before or during the war as we hear nothing, that I recall, of him fighting or helping to fight during Robert's Rebellion. If he didn't there is a good chance that he might have been at Winterfell during the war if he wasn't in the Night's Watch because of the general belief that a Stark should always be there. Since there were only two Starks alive at time though I hardly think it's a big question why only 1 is known to be actively looking for Lyanna after the war. Benjen could have been caught up doing a number of different things and might not have been even in the South. This does beg the question though, was anything ever mentioned about what Benjen was doing during the war?

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I honestly assumed Benjen took the Black before or during the war as we hear nothing, that I recall, of him fighting or helping to fight during Robert's Rebellion. If he didn't there is a good chance that he might have been at Winterfell during the war if he wasn't in the Night's Watch because of the general belief that a Stark should always be there. Since there were only two Starks alive at time though I hardly think it's a big question why only 1 is known to be actively looking for Lyanna after the war. Benjen could have been caught up doing a number of different things and might not have been even in the South. This does beg the question though, was anything ever mentioned about what Benjen was doing during the war?

I thought he was the 'Stark in Winterfell' at the time, but my timeline has huge holes in it at many points :idea:

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We don't actually know that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance, although it is widely assumed.

Given that it is widely assumed, and by such people as King Robert and so forth, you would think that the connection can be made. Moreover given the obsession that many people have with the Targaryen family you would assume that people are out there are making the connections.

Which makes the fact that Jon's parentage has gone undiscussed for such a long time somewhat remarkable. There is speculation in various parts of the world, that we know for sure, and it is somewhat absurd that such speculation was only restricted to Jon's mother, with Ned as the father. In fact the only thing that kept such speculation limited in that way can be due to Ned still being alive.

As Jon was found by Ned his parentage was put beyond question for a short time. All the questions that could be asked of Ned and his bastard (why acknowledge him and not name the mother, why insult a new wife by taking him home, why damage your honour by conceiving such a child to begin with, so out of character as such an act is, etc, etc) were pushed aside only, it seems to me, because Ned was Robert's friend, because the realm was reshuffling at the time, and because Ned ran back to Winterfell.

Jon was literally in a position where his parentage would least be able to be questioned. But now that Ned and Robert are dead, the Stark house smashed to pieces, Dany forging an Empire overseas, I would expect people who had minor queries before are now in able to actually ask questions.

How long can people be distracted by other events? At some point the Targaryen question will be pushed to prominence and you'd think something would have to give. (And I would suggest that Jon's legitimacy is largely irrelevant, much more relevant is the fact that he took the black).

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:lol:

Why are you laughing at Shewoman's assertion that "Benjen was alive when the war ended. After that he took the Black."

There must be a Stark at Winterfell, and Benjen was the only Stark available during the war. Plus, he wasn't just the only Stark available, he was Ned's heir at the beginning of the war and all through Cat's pregnancy in a time when live birth was less than assured (as it is even now). With all of Ned's dangerous warring down south, of course Benjen would be in Winterfell to keep the family line alive if need be.

I find it highly unlikely that Benjen Stark would take the Black when he is the only plausible Stark in Winterfell during Ned's warring, when he is the heir to Winterfell, when his House is wrapped up in a rebellious civil war that will decide the future of his House either way.

And even after Rob is born, the infant heir to Winterfell is located and in the hands of the Tullys at Riverrun, which is not nearly enough for Benjen to conclude "well, even though the war rages on and there must be a Stark in Winterfell, I'm off to the Wall, guys! Listen to that baby in Riverrun for your orders if Ned never comes back."

Since we know Benjen wasn't a criminal forced to take the Black, we can conclude he did so only when his role as Stark in Winterfell was unnecessary (i.e., when Ned got back) and further when his role as heir to Winterfell was no longer so crucial to keep the Stark line running (i.e., when Rob was born and brought back safe, or even later when Cat began to have additional healthy babies and Benjen was assured by taking the Black he woudn't endanger the end of the Stark House.)

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Guest Ontology Interface Layer
Why are you laughing at Shewoman's assertion that "Benjen was alive when the war ended. After that he took the Black."

My guess is that it sort of sounds like one isn't really alive anymore after taking the black; that the NW makes one dead to the world. Maybe?

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...Which makes the fact that Jon's parentage has gone undiscussed for such a long time somewhat remarkable. There is speculation in various parts of the world, that we know for sure, and it is somewhat absurd that such speculation was only restricted to Jon's mother, with Ned as the father. In fact the only thing that kept such speculation limited in that way can be due to Ned still being alive.

As Jon was found by Ned his parentage was put beyond question for a short time. All the questions that could be asked of Ned and his bastard (why acknowledge him and not name the mother, why insult a new wife by taking him home, why damage your honour by conceiving such a child to begin with, so out of character as such an act is, etc, etc) were pushed aside only, it seems to me, because Ned was Robert's friend, because the realm was reshuffling at the time, and because Ned ran back to Winterfell.

Jon was literally in a position where his parentage would least be able to be questioned....

I've gone over this many times in the past, but let me once again give my take on this aspect of the story. For what it's worth here it is:

The ingenious dual story that Ned has crafted to hide Jon's parentage has worked well, so I don't think it's very remarkable that it has largely gone unquestioned - or rather that it works so well because it pushes others to ask the wrong questions. When Ned goes to Starfall from the Tower of Joy he creates two cover stories for two different, but two very important audiences. He sets up Wylla in Starfall, or she returns there, where she claims to all the world - including to the next heir to Starfall itself - that she is Jon's mother and Ned is his father. By going along with this cover Wylla provides the dust in the eyes for anyone (Varys) who seriously wants an answer to the question, and by being in Starfall, and ensconced in the Lord's household, those who wish to investigate the matter must do so in a place where Wylla can't be intimidated to say otherwise. Just as important is that Wylla's cover story is what is needed to convince Robert of Jon's origins. Robert loves the fact his honorable-to-a fault-friend strayed from his marriage bed to father a bastard. Ned tells him he dishonored himself and Catelyn when he fathered Jon with a low-born woman chance met on campaign. How can Robert, he of 16 bastards, not relate to this? What's more Ned refuses to talk anymore about it, which fits Ned's character to a "t." Why would Robert search for proof of this story? He doesn't, and no one else is going to tell him different without conclusive proof that the King's most trusted friend is lying. As long as Wylla and the Daynes say nothing but their cover story, and Ned and Howland shut the hell up, this line of inquiry isn't going very far.

Second, by going to Starfall and meeting with the one woman most of Westerosi nobility knows Ned had romantic feelings for, Ned has created the cover for all the needed gossip among his class. For years they have entertained themselves with the idea that Jon is really Ned and Ashara's child, and Ashara killed herself when Ned took Jon from her. For those who refuse to believe Ned would dishonor himself with a commoner, the story that his love for Ashara was stronger than his family duty to marry and stay true to his dead brother's bride-to-be is too delicious to not be told over and over again for the better part of two decades. However this story doesn't work for Robert. Robert doesn't care about Ned's fidelity to Catelyn, but he does care about Ned's fidelity to his cause and his claim to his newly won throne. A lover's tryst in the midst of the rebellion with a well known royalist isn't something Ned could use to satisfy Robert. Even Robert can count to nine, and he would begin to wonder about Ned's own loyalties. The two contradictory parts of the cover work well together, and provide Ned and Jon all they need to live out Ned lies, as long as they do so away from those who would seek to do Ned harm for political purposes. Living in the frozen north away from the intrigues of King's Landing accomplishes this easily.

This version relies on a small conspiracy of folks who know the truth - or at least know Ned's version isn't the truth - to either not speak about the matter entirely, or to maintain Wylla's claim. It means, at the minimum, that Ned, Howland, Wylla, and the Lord of Starfall (and likely his wife) go along with it. If any other people were at the Tower of Joy they would have to be included as well. That is not a lot of folks needed to keep a secret. It is aided by Ned and Howland's remoteness from any inquiring minds - indeed Howland has probably disappeared into the Neck never to be seen again (unless he answers Ned's call of his banners in the greyjoy Rebellion.) As long as Wylla and the Daynes stay in Starfall there is little chance for anyone to break the cover story.

So, in closing, I don't think the topic of Jon's parentage has gone unremarked upon. It is only that the many remarks are along the wrong lines. The gossip is about Ashara, and about how Ned could dishonor Catelyn by bringing Jon home. In the latter case Ned's legendary, and in some eyes false, sense of honor provides all the excuse that is necessary.

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So, in closing, I don't think the topic of Jon's parentage has gone unremarked upon. It is only that the many remarks are along the wrong lines. The gossip is about Ashara, and about how Ned could dishonor Catelyn by bringing Jon home. In the latter case Ned's legendary, and in some eyes false, sense of honor provides all the excuse that is necessary.

I agree with your discussion to a point. It's not unremarkable that Jon's parentage has only been discussed in certain ways up to this point in time. But as the factors that made it so are now beginning to break down (Ned being alive, the Ned-Robert relationship, etc) it would be remarkable if some new questions don't start being asked soon. Indeed, the only thing that is stopping them being asked at the moment, I believe, is Jon's presence at the Wall, which is still much removed from the rest of the action. As Jon and the Wall begun to figure in a closer relationship to the rest of the realm then the issue will begin to feel the pressure.

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I agree with your discussion to a point. It's not unremarkable that Jon's parentage has only been discussed in certain ways up to this point in time. But as the factors that made it so are now beginning to break down (Ned being alive, the Ned-Robert relationship, etc) it would be remarkable if some new questions don't start being asked soon. Indeed, the only thing that is stopping them being asked at the moment, I believe, is Jon's presence at the Wall, which is still much removed from the rest of the action. As Jon and the Wall begun to figure in a closer relationship to the rest of the realm then the issue will begin to feel the pressure.

I agree with you on that point. As Jon becomes more and more prominent the old questions will arise. Without new information coming from either Wylla, Howland, or some unexpected source the questioners are unlikely to get very far. It does also raise the question of whether or not Ned wrote that letter to Jon, and if so just what did Varys read in it?

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Moon Tea

The nobles don't have kids unless they want them. That little element of Martin's fantasy world is essential to people not asking whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna had any kids. Presumably, rapists don't want to get their victims pregnant.

The existence of Moon Tea is not totally unrealistic. I've been told there was an herb that would prevent pregnancy in ancient Egypt. It went extinct...

It's not disputable that they were shagging for months in the Tower of Joy.

Notice how Barristan Selmy tries to dodge the issue?

When Dany asks him how Rhaegar could rape Lyanna, IIRC he talks about how Elia was sickly.

The natural response would have been "Don't feel so bad, it wasn't a rape, it was consentual."

And then Dany would say "Oh, really. Did they have a child?"

Barristan wants to avoid that conversation.

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I would like to point out that Ned was at least as deeply invested in the rebellion as Robert for Robert not to question Ned's loyalty whether he had a fling with Ashara or not. The murder of Brandon and Rickard took care of that.

A big reason for people (read nobles) of Westeros to not dwell overmuch over Jon is that he as a bastard is below their notice, I think. At least below the people who weren't directly concerned (read Catelyn).

On a side note one can wonder if Ned's reputation as a very honorable man is due to more than him raising his own bastard, marrying his brother's leftover and returning the sword of a fallen foe... Well that was actually quite heavy reasons...

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During the war Benjen was "the Stark in Winterfell" until Ned came home. Prior to that he, along with a lot of the Westerosi nobility, was at Harrenhal, where a member of the Night's Watch issued a plea for more men to go to the Wall. Benjen stayed at Winterfell after Ned and Catelyn returned from Riverrun with Robb. I think Benjen may have stayed until after Sansa was born and then he took the Black. Having been the Stark at Winterfell during the war, he may have decided that Ned and Catelyn were doing a good enough job of populating the Stark nursery, enabling him to go to the Wall. For the Starks, that was always an honorable post, and Benjen, having been the Stark in Winterfell for a time, may have wanted more from life more than the chance to watch his brother sire more children to stand between him and any chance he may have had at being Lord of Winterfell. As far as I know, Catelyn never had any difficulty conceiving or giving birth.

Lamaros, Robert assumes that Rhaegar took Lyanna because that's easier for him to accept than the idea that she loved Rhaegar and willingly went with him. Other than that, all he knows about that situation is what Ned has told him.

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I would like to point out that Ned was at least as deeply invested in the rebellion as Robert for Robert not to question Ned's loyalty whether he had a fling with Ashara or not. The murder of Brandon and Rickard took care of that.

The murders of Brandon and Rickard take place before Jon's conception. As I said, Robert can count. All he has to do is count backwards nine months to know this "fling" with Ashara had to have taken place during the midst of the rebellion and without his knowing anything about it. If you think that would be unimportant to Robert, then you give him much too much credit in my opinion. Besides which, if you are constructing a cover story to hide a treasonous act (the hiding of Rhaegar's child) it isn't likely a good idea hide it by acknowledging another treasonous act (fraternizing with the enemy in a time of war.) Even if Robert is in a forgiving mood, it doesn't make sense to draw that kind of attention to oneself. Besides the fact we know Ned tells Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother. Obviously, if either Ashara or Lyanna is Jon's true mother, Ned didn't think it a good idea to tell Robert the truth.

A big reason for people (read nobles) of Westeros to not dwell overmuch over Jon is that he as a bastard is below their notice, I think. At least below the people who weren't directly concerned (read Catelyn).
Jon may well be beneath their notice, but the sex life of one of the Great Lords of the Realm is not. Gossip among the noble class (e.g. Cersei,) and among the common people (e.g. Ned's soldiers) is bound to happen. Ned would be a fool not to know so.

On a side note one can wonder if Ned's reputation as a very honorable man is due to more than him raising his own bastard, marrying his brother's leftover and returning the sword of a fallen foe... Well that was actually quite heavy reasons...
No doubt these all contribute heavily to Ned's reputation, but Ned and Robert know each other from well before these events, as childhood friends. Ned's reputation with those who know him is well set before the war, imho.
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SF Danny, as I see it Ned don't fear Robert for himself, not even if he had beget (begotted, begyttied???) Ashara with a bastard. The greater part of the rebellion's power stems from the north and from the vale, but that is to me really beside the point, because Ned and Robert were as close as brothers.

If Ashara had been Jon's mother I guess that Ned wouldn't have told anyone, just to protect her reputation, I even believe he would have told Robert to mind his own, if questioned.

No, IMHO, a desception is only needed if Jon is not Eddard's.

I agree though that the sex life of the High Lords' and Ladies' is of more interest than of bastards. Though I have, as the books progress, found Cersei's comment more and more odd (that Ned's people gossip about Ashara, allright, but the rest of the realm? They were never betrothed and they were in all likelyhood never left alone).

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It's not disputable that they were shagging for months in the Tower of Joy.

Notice how Barristan Selmy tries to dodge the issue?

When Dany asks him how Rhaegar could rape Lyanna, IIRC he talks about how Elia was sickly.

The natural response would have been "Don't feel so bad, it wasn't a rape, it was consentual."

This is wrong on a couple of levels.

First, it totally is "disputable that they were shagging for months in the Tower of Joy."

Second, it is only an assumption that Rhaegar+Lyanna wasn't rape. If it wasn't consensual, there goes your "natural response", too.

Third, what Dany asked about was how could Rhaegar dishonor Elia by crowning Lyanna at the Harrenhal Tournament. Nothing at all about his absconding a year later with her as consort or captive.

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First, it totally is "disputable that they were shagging for months in the Tower of Joy."

Alright then, give me an alternate timeline. From my memory, Aerys had to send the Kingsguard to fetch Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy because he was absent the entire duration of Robert's Rebellion through the Battle of the Bells. If that isn't months, what is it?

There's also that line from Robert

"How many times did he rape her? How many hundreds of times?"

You may argue the point, but I believe that you would need at least two months to shag 200 times.

Now I remember that Lyanna stayed behind at Harrenhal after the tourney, and it was only when Brandon went south to marry Catelyn that it was discovered she was not there. Brandon went to King's Landing and it is thought that Rhaegar was not there either (but I don't think there's any indication either way, really). So, they were presumably shagging for some time in King's Landing before Lyanna went to the Tower of Joy. Some people suspect they left when it was discovered Lyanna was pregnant. Although, the torture of her father and brother may also have been the impetus.

Second, it is only an assumption that Rhaegar+Lyanna wasn't rape.

You just have to assume that bears shit in the woods. I'm sure Lyanna was clutching the flowers Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal on her deathbed despite the fact he raped her. Not.

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I doubt that Ned wrote Jon a letter in which any secrets were revealed. He's worked too hard to protect Jon to risk that now.

People do funny things when they are knock knock knocking on heaven's door. I think Varys's admission that he would read the letter killed the idea.

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SF Danny, as I see it Ned don't fear Robert for himself, not even if he had beget (begotted, begyttied???) Ashara with a bastard. The greater part of the rebellion's power stems from the north and from the vale, but that is to me really beside the point, because Ned and Robert were as close as brothers.

If Ashara had been Jon's mother I guess that Ned wouldn't have told anyone, just to protect her reputation, I even believe he would have told Robert to mind his own, if questioned.

No, IMHO, a desception is only needed if Jon is not Eddard's.

I agree though that the sex life of the High Lords' and Ladies' is of more interest than of bastards. Though I have, as the books progress, found Cersei's comment more and more odd (that Ned's people gossip about Ashara, allright, but the rest of the realm? They were never betrothed and they were in all likelyhood never left alone).

I think these points are all tied together. The reason Cersei takes interest in Ned's sex life of fourteen years ago, is not just a need for juicy gossip - as endemic to court life as that is, it is grounded in her participation in the game of thrones. Opponents in the game must look for weaknesses that can be exploited. If nothing else, Cersei can spread the tale of Ned's hypocrisy. How the High Lord of Winterfell, who pretends to be all about honorable conduct, in fact, raped a common woman, or stole his bastard away from the grieving Ashara and thereby was the catalyst for her death. It doesn't have to be true, but truth helps. Now, think back fourteen years and think what a Varys would do with such information. Need he confront Robert with accusations of Ned's treason? No, that would be as dangerous as confronting him about Cersei's and Jaime's incest, but whispers about Ned's secret alliance with a loyalist house, could have their effect. Robert may do nothing about it, but what happens when Jon Arryn dies if he has lingering questions about his old closer-than-a-brother comrade-in-arms? Does Robert tramp all the way to Winterfell to offer him the position of Hand? I think there is a question that he does. Doubts about loyalty in the mind of a king are not to be taken lightly, especially if one really is engaged is treason. L+R=J would certainly be treasonous for Ned to hide from his king and friend all these years.

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practically impossible to fit into the timeframe" then sure.

How long does it take for a ship to go from Eastwatch to Qarth? How much time passed between new recruits arriving from the Vale and Barristan arriving in Qarth? We know it takes two weeks to go from Castle Black to Eastwatch by horse. I should say, I think I remember that it takes two weeks from A Storm of Swords.

There is a strong counterfactual that I though of on my own - if Barristan went to the Wall, Varys would figure out Jon's parentage. Until we get some new information on Varys's thinking, the notion that Barristan went to the Wall is speculation.

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