the silent speaker Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I'm sure Lyanna was clutching the flowers Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal on her deathbed despite the fact he raped her. Not.I agree with you. Those were not the flowers Rhaegar gave Lyanna at Harrenhal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 How long does it take for a ship to go from Eastwatch to Qarth? How much time passed between new recruits arriving from the Vale and Barristan arriving in Qarth? We know it takes two weeks to go from Castle Black to Eastwatch by horse. I should say, I think I remember that it takes two weeks from A Storm of Swords.Others have done much more study in the distances between places than I have, but I can give you one fact to go on. When the Cinnamon Wind arrives in Qarth and its captain speaks with Dany it is six months since he called at Oldtown and heard the news of Robert's death. Eastwatch is a great deal farther than Oldtown from Qarth. Of course, Selmy's ship could have sailed to Qarth from Pentos with far fewer stops and less time in harbor than the Summer Islander's ship. It is very hard to tell anything exact with these types of distances. My understanding is that Martin likes it that way. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ontology Interface Layer Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 How long does it take for a ship to go from Eastwatch to Qarth? How much time passed between new recruits arriving from the Vale and Barristan arriving in Qarth?Quhuru Mo visited Dany on her very first night in Qarth, telling of Robert's death:"This is so, your Grace, not half a year past, we called at Oldtown. From there I give bring you a wondrous gift."So Oldtown to Qarth, with stops in the Summer Isles, Dorne, and Lys, took somewhat less than six months. Barristan arrived in Qarth on Dany's last day there, come from Pentos. Barristan didn't leave until after Robert's death, on the day of Joffrey's first court session. He arrived in Qarth as Dany was preparing to leave, after her Khalasar had time to grow "plump and rested again". Roughly comparable times, with Barristan both leaving and arriving a few weeks after Quhuru Mo.Enough room in that slop to fit in a round trip voyage from the South all the way up to Castle Black, including the overland ride and a more than 10 day sail just to get out of the Bay of Seals, longer to get within sight of Skagos? That round trip would be a substantial addition to the voyage, perhaps a third as much again.ETA: SFDannny beat me to it, no surprise considering how long I took posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward the Great Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Quhuru Mo visited Dany on her very first night in Qarth, telling of Robert's death:"This is so, your Grace, not half a year past, we called at Oldtown. From there I give bring you a wondrous gift."Enough room in that slop to fit in a round trip voyage from the South all the way up to Castle Black, including the overland ride and a more than 10 day sail just to get out of the Bay of Seals, longer to get within sight of Skagos? That round trip would be a substantial addition to the voyage, perhaps a third as much again.If Barristan went to the Wall, then he went by way of Gulltown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ontology Interface Layer Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 If Barristan went to the Wall, then he went by way of Gulltown.We don't know that he actually departed from Gulltown, but sure, he would have gone past it. So? That doesn't change that it would be a massive detour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward the Great Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 We don't know that he actually departed from Gulltown, but sure, he would have gone past it. So? That doesn't change that it would be a massive detour.I am being specific. The contention is that if Barristan went to the wall, then he came with a group of recuits that came to Castle Black from Gulltown. Not passed by Gulltown. Came from Gulltown. You seam to think that the notion of Barristan going to the wall is pulled out of thin air but it is an interpretation of passages in the text. This may make the timeline unrealistic, but it would merely be making things up out of thin air to contend that Barristan came to Castle Black in any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ontology Interface Layer Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I am being specific. The contention is that if Barristan went to the wall, then he came with a group of recuits that came to Castle Black from Gulltown. Not passed by Gulltown. Came from Gulltown. You seam to think that the notion of Barristan going to the wall is pulled out of thin air but it is an interpretation of passages in the text. Nope. Near Gulltown, not from the city itself, and there's no mention at all that they even went by ship; they could have walked or rode. Yoren took a group from KL, which is also a port, but he traveled by land. Conwy could easily have done the same. It's cheaper.And yeah, it's still pulled from thin air, because there's no actual indication that Barristan went there at all. Just that there was some old greybeard..hardly a positive ID.This may make the timeline unrealistic, but it would merely be making things up out of thin air to contend that Barristan came to Castle Black in any other way.There's no need to contend that he went to Castle Black at all. My contention is that he did no such thing.For that matter, Jorah Mormont had seen him during the campaigns in the south, even if he didn't expect to see him in Qarth, of all places. The Old Bear mentioned knowing Pycelle slightly, so he probably would have known Selmy, too. And not just him; there were other men of the NW from the KL area...like Thoren Smallwood, for one. And many the other southron NW wuld recognise him, too...he was kind of a celebrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I have had flowers last longer than a year. I don't think it's impossible at all that the flowers Lyanna is clutching when she died lasted that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I didn't say it was impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The white rabbit Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Somethnig crossed my mind recently concerning the Lyanna s "Promise me, Ned".Do you think that maybe she pleaded him to kill her, because she was suffered og unrecoverble wounds/illness (in a way maester Luwin asked Osha ?)I thougth the idea a lot, and it looked plausible to me at one point, but yet..the notion of "promise" indicates something would happen in a future, not right now.What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Somethnig crossed my mind recently concerning the Lyanna s "Promise me, Ned".Do you think that maybe she pleaded him to kill her, because she was suffered og unrecoverble wounds/illness (in a way maester Luwin asked Osha ?)I thougth the idea a lot, and it looked plausible to me at one point, but yet..the notion of "promise" indicates something would happen in a future, not right now.What do you think?Yeah, I don't think "Promise me, Ned" sounds like the gift of mercy. Many things are possible, but this doesn't seem to fit to me. Doesn't mean a mercy killing is out of the realm of the possible, but I don't see anything that supports it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The white rabbit Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I agree with you.I was just thinking about Ned s obsession with Lyanna s last words, and the idea about the gift of mercy came to me, but then I started to wonder about the price Ned payed for that gift, and suddenly that gift was not logic at all.If that happend, IMHO there was nothing to lie about it afterwords. Everybody would understand it, especeally in cruelty of westeroy world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Ned thinks fairly often about Lyanna saying "Promise me" and about promises made and the price he paid for them. This is Lyanna's death from A Game of Thrones. It's Ned's first POV passage--in my American paperback, it begins on page 39. He and Robert talk about Lyanna in the Winterfell crypt. Robert asks why Ned buried her in a dark crypt. Ned says that as a Stark, this was her place. "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had touched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief." I agree with White Rabbit: "Promise me" sounds to me like a pledge Ned is making to do (or possibly not do) something in the future after Lyanna is dead. The passage above sounds like she died of childbed fever--was already dying of it when her brother arrived--fighting to stay alive until someone she trusted came to her and promised something. She seems to be able to die--to "give up her hold on life"--only after Ned promises her whatever it was. Her fear was not for herself. Ned thinks about Lyanna saying "Promise me" fairly often. The memory doesn't seem to be painful to him. What we see of his memories of his last encounter with her do not include killing her, nor does he ever think of her or that scene with any kind of guilt or regret that I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The white rabbit Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had touched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dea and black. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief." That very quote inspired me to think about the gift of mercy, not beacuse of somethnig that was written, but beacause of something that was not. That scene would function very well also, with the something in the middle: Ned took the pillow and covered her face with it...But, as SF Danny pointed out there were a lot of other facts that did not fit in.The notion of promise, broken promises, price Ned had to pay for...etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamaros Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 It's a promise that has caused Ned pain throughout his life. You would assume that this does not relate to pain through reflection, but pain through being forced to act in a way that he would otherwise not have liked to act. In keeping with the L+R theory this pain is:A: Not being able to tell Jon the truth about his mother, and his birth.B: Not being able to tell Catalyn that he didn't dishonour her.C: Not being able to tell Robert the truth about Lyana.D: Etc.I think if you go back and notice the times when Ned thinks of the promise you will often find that he remembers it in relation to some event of memory or person such as I have listed above. When with Robert he thinks of it, when thinking of Jon he thinks of it, when thinking about children he thinks of it.. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Don’t forget that Ned thinks about living with lies for 14 years (Jon’s age by the beginning of the book). If this lies were a result of his promise to Lyanna then for a man who hates to lie this will be a very great price indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 He thinks of it in connection with Sansa begging for the life of her direwolf after the murder of Mycah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 He thinks of it in connection with Sansa begging for the life of her direwolf after the murder of Mycah.A good indication that Lyanna also pleaded for somebody’s life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Only, whose? I can't really see Ned telling her, "You gave birth to Rhaegar's son? Well, can't have that, I'll just be popping him off then," can you? Lyanna wouldn't have had to plead with Ned to stop the murders of children. Especially if she went with Rhaegar willingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.