Prince of the North Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 No, I think it could have been more along the lines of Lyanna pleading with Ned to not let the Baratheons kill Jon (if R+L=J, of course :) ) and/or not let the Targaryens put Jon in danger trying to use him to fulfill some crazy prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Lyanna pleading with Ned to not let the Baratheons kill JonI repeat: is there any reason to think she would have worried that it would enter his mind? We've seen his reaction to assassinating Dany and Rhaego, and she's nothing to him or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidden Prince Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I repeat: is there any reason to think she would have worried that it would enter his mind? We've seen his reaction to assassinating Dany and Rhaego, and she's nothing to him or less.I don't think anyone believes Ned would kill the baby but if the she had one and it got out then there is little that Ned could do to stop others from killing him. Sansa pleaded with Ned to protect Lady's life and not to let them kill her as I believe Lyanna pleaded with Ned to do something similar. The best way of doing that would be to hide the babies true identity. Seeing what happened to Rhaegar other children Lyanna would be rightfully worried that the same would happen to her's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I repeat: is there any reason to think she would have worried that it would enter his mind? We've seen his reaction to assassinating Dany and Rhaego, and she's nothing to him or less.Yes, I think there is. Ned swears fealty to Robert who will almost certainly kill a child of Rhaegar, even if it is also Lyanna's child. Lyanna may well think her brother will choose her child over his vows and his love for Robert, but she must have a doubt about what Ned might do. Or to be more accurate, what Ned might allow to be done. How can she not? This is her child and she can't take it for granted that Ned will protect him. She has to get his promise to do so, even if that what she expects Ned to do. The is no room for misunderstandings when your child's life is at stake. After all, if Jon is Rhaegar's son, she is not only asking Ned to take care of Jon and hide his identity, she is asking Ned to commit treason. She is asking, potentially, for Ned to go to war against Robert rather than to give up her son. No matter how close Lyanna is to Ned, she has to have his promise before she dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamaros Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I don't think anyone believes Ned would kill the baby but if the she had one and it got out then there is little that Ned could do to stop others from killing him. Sansa pleaded with Ned to protect Lady's life and not to let them kill her as I believe Lyanna pleaded with Ned to do something similar. The best way of doing that would be to hide the babies true identity. Seeing what happened to Rhaegar other children Lyanna would be rightfully worried that the same would happen to her's.Exactly.I repeat: is there any reason to think she would have worried that it would enter his mind? We've seen his reaction to assassinating Dany and Rhaego, and she's nothing to him or less.Actually his passionate reaction to Dany would be only further strengthened by the fact that he could easily imagine Jon in a similar situation. That whole incident shows why it is necessary for Jon's parentage to be kept hidden and why Ned had to lie a great deal to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystery Knight Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I'm sure a lot of you have already heard this or thought of this, but here goes anyway. I think Jon is the product of R+L, and I think Darkstar is Ned's real bastard with Ashara Dayne. Now I know there's only a little evidence to suggest the R+L=J theory, and even less with the E+A=D, but hey, I thought I'd throw it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I'm sure a lot of you have already heard this or thought of this, but here goes anyway. I think Jon is the product of R+L, and I think Darkstar is Ned's real bastard with Ashara Dayne. Now I know there's only a little evidence to suggest the R+L=J theory, and even less with the E+A=D, but hey, I thought I'd throw it out there.In Dorne, even prince Oberyn's children born out of wedlock have the last name Sand, and Darkstar"s real name is Gerold Dayne. Plus I think it would be incredulous that such a coward would be in any way related to Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthrone Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 In Dorne, even prince Oberyn's children born out of wedlock have the last name Sand, and Darkstar"s real name is Gerold Dayne. Plus I think it would be incredulous that such a coward would be in any way related to Ned.Yes. Bravery is a genetic trait.Might be a bit more important to point out that Darkstar's in his twenties, thus making him five to ten years too old to be Ned's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Might be a bit more important to point out that Darkstar's in his twenties, thus making him five to ten years too old to be Ned's son.How do you know that? I've argued this over and over. There is no indication in the text of the Darkstar's age. A lot of assumptions on people's parts, but no textual evidence. Now, I should say I find the idea that Ser Gerold Dayne is Ned and Ashara's child much more than a bit far fetched, but it is not his age that rules it out. It's the fact, as the originator of the idea even admits, there is absolutely nothing to support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthrone Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 If he is a knight, he is at least fifteen. The Dragonknight and Jaime Lannister were both knighted at fifteen, which is considered extraordinary. If Darkstar was knighted any younger, he would be considered extraordinary also, and he makes a point of bitching about that fact that he is not considered extraordinary. Besides, why would Arianne be running around with someone so much younger than herself? Alternatively: all the members of Arianne's conspiracy, Arys Oakheart excepted, were friends or acquaintances, probably from her time in the Water Gardens. If N+A=Darkwing Duck, he can be maybe sixteen at the absolute oldest, if you assume he was conceived at Harrenhal (which seems very unlikely, in my opinion). How does Arianne know him if he's sixteen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Yes, I think there is. Ned swears fealty to Robert who will almost certainly kill a child of Rhaegar, even if it is also Lyanna's child. Lyanna may well think her brother will choose her child over his vows and his love for Robert, but she must have a doubt about what Ned might do. Or to be more accurate, what Ned might allow to be done. How can she not? This is her child and she can't take it for granted that Ned will protect him. She has to get his promise to do so, even if that what she expects Ned to do. The is no room for misunderstandings when your child's life is at stake. After all, if Jon is Rhaegar's son, she is not only asking Ned to take care of Jon and hide his identity, she is asking Ned to commit treason. She is asking, potentially, for Ned to go to war against Robert rather than to give up her son. No matter how close Lyanna is to Ned, she has to have his promise before she dies.Exactly and this also would perfectly explain why she was afraid until Ned made his promise. She knew her brother well and she knew how much he loved her yet she was asked him to make something that he hated almost as strong – to lie and to betray his friend. She could not be sure what feeling would prevail until Ned answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morekyyn Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 And of course the fact that Ned was honest to a fault. His natural instinct probably would have been that he would not make Jon's identity a secret, though he would naturally have defended the boy (to death) because he was his sister's son. Thus, with his honesty, making an even earlier end of his own honest life. Perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's claw Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Reading through these last few posts gave me a thought..you know seeing as how most of the people out there throw Ashara's name around whenever the issue of Jon's parentage is raised..its kind of surprising that Jon himself doesn't seem to be aware of it! I mean not once does he regard Ashara as a candidate to be his mother (and for that matter anybody!). He had to be aware of all the gossip right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Rhaegar Targaryen Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Hum, yes, that is strange indeed...I remember a scene where Jon's mother is called a whore, and he goes on about how she is not (and I think Donal Noye then calms him and tells him that some of his brothers' mothers were whores indeed). Well, my point beeing, he just rambles that his mother is no whore because he thinks of Ned's honor (and that he would never lie with a whore etc.), he does not think "my mother is no whore, she's Ashara Dayne/Wylla". Absolutely no indication that he ever heard any rumors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Absolutely no indication that he ever heard any rumors...He probably hasn't. Ned put the kibosh on the rumours in Winterfell and anywhere that he and Jon would have both been present at. And Jon hasn't been sitting around chatting with Cersei or Robert or Ned Dayne or the other characters who have spoken of the names. Since then, he's been in places even more remote and out of the loop than Winterfell. His best chance could have been Tyrion, though even he was quite young at the time (maybe ten or so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 He probably hasn't. Ned put the kibosh on the rumours in Winterfell and anywhere that he and Jon would have both been present at. And Jon hasn't been sitting around chatting with Cersei or Robert or Ned Dayne or the other characters who have spoken of the names. Since then, he's been in places even more remote and out of the loop than Winterfell. His best chance could have been Tyrion, though even he was quite young at the time (maybe ten or so).Good points and I agree that Ned is the most likely explanation for Jon seemingly not knowing about the Ashara rumors. I think that if Ned's promise to Lyanna had anything to do with protecting Jon, and I think it did, then a large part of protecting Jon would entail keeping the truth even from him (at least until he was older, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's claw Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Good points and I agree that Ned is the most likely explanation for Jon seemingly not knowing about the Ashara rumors. I think that if Ned's promise to Lyanna had anything to do with protecting Jon, and I think it did, then a large part of protecting Jon would entail keeping the truth even from him (at least until he was older, etc.)I wonder if someone will throw it in his as and when he becomes more prominent in the story? Would be interesting to read his reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Apologies for not reading the other 37 pages of this thread, but I find the whole hopeful speculation that Jon is the production of a liaison between Lyanna and Rhaegar rather nauseating. There is not concrete evidence that this is the case, and furthermore it would be incredibly cheesy if it was.I much prefer the idea that Ned simply made a mistake. It's more interesting, more human and less pungent French cheese romance. Genetic speculation really misses the point. Does anyone seriously think that GRRM investigated elements of the Human Genome project etc before he wrote the character?I find it faintly ludicrous that 37 pages could be expended on an issue that's so pointless, so unproven. If GRRM makes it so, great, but from my perspective it smacks rather too strongly of melodrama when this series is about a startling degree of realism.Furthermore, it doesn't fit with the Stark children/Direwolves idea. Don't you think it's more interesting if Ned simply made a mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I find it faintly ludicrous that 37 pages could be expended on an issue that's so pointless, so unproven.There are actually over 200 pages on R+L=J for this running thread as this is the sixth one and there are a lot more pages out there because there are other threads that are still around here, have been deleted or were on previous iterations of the board. And that is because it is unproven. If it were proven or disproven, it would just be newbs bringing it up and people saying, "Yeah that's right" or "No that's wrong" and the thread wouldn't fill up one page. It's also long because if it's true it's a pretty masterfully hidden event woven into the series that can still be pieced together by clever and attentive readers. We don't know that's it pointless yet. One obvious explanation is that Dany might be in need of Targ for dragon purposes. Kinda short on Targs atm. But that's just one possible explanation. It's up in the air right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Apologies for not reading the other 37 pages of this thread, but I find the whole hopeful speculation that Jon is the production of a liaison between Lyanna and Rhaegar rather nauseating. There is not concrete evidence that this is the case, and furthermore it would be incredibly cheesy if it was.I much prefer the idea that Ned simply made a mistake. It's more interesting, more human and less pungent French cheese romance. Genetic speculation really misses the point. Does anyone seriously think that GRRM investigated elements of the Human Genome project etc before he wrote the character?I find it faintly ludicrous that 37 pages could be expended on an issue that's so pointless, so unproven. If GRRM makes it so, great, but from my perspective it smacks rather too strongly of melodrama when this series is about a startling degree of realism.You are certainly free to feel what you like, but I think you've then got to explain some things that this theory otherwise deals with nicely.What is the lie Ned's been living for fourteen years?What was the promise he made that placated Lyanna on her death bed?Why can't Ned tell Catelyn who Jon's mother is, when it stands between them? Why can't he tell Jon?What are Oswell Whent, Arthur Dayne, and Gerold Hightower doing at the Tower of Joy, and why can't they give Lyanna to Ned and his men?What better interpretation is there for Dany's vision of "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."?What I love about the theory is its parsimonious. It answer all these questions with one simple explanation. If you want some great quotes and analysis on this, here's a good place to look.I'll be the first to admit that there are questions that aren't answered by the theory, true, but I think this simply fits the best.Furthermore, it doesn't fit with the Stark children/Direwolves idea.Why not? He's still got Stark blood in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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