The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Gilgamesh]

What is the lie Ned's been living for fourteen years?

What was the promise he made that placated Lyanna on her death bed?

Why can't Ned tell Catelyn who Jon's mother is, when it stands between them? Why can't he tell Jon?

What are Oswell Whent, Arthur Dayne, and Gerold Hightower doing at the Tower of Joy, and why can't they give Lyanna to Ned and his men?

What better interpretation is there for Dany's vision of "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."?

I'm afraid I haven't read the books for 4 years, and won't do so until the next one comes out, so I really don't have access to the kinds of details needed to answer your question. However, I will have a very rough go.

i.) Lie? What lie is that? I don't recall Ned ever saying that he lived a lie.

ii.) Death bed promises. More cheese. But again, I really don't remember any promise being made - sorry.

iii.) Surely this would make more sense if the mother was still alive? Ned trusts Catelyn implicitly, so that would suggest to me that he could tell her if the mother was Lyanna - because that would alleviate any tension. Of your points this seems the weakest.

iv.) Because Rhaegar is a possessive mad bastard?

v.) I have no idea. If this comes from the dream-palace bit (Quarth?) I'm afraid I didn't bother to think about it too much. I found that section tiresome, as I did all of Dany's sections ( I despise her). But the quote does not suggest to me that there is any blood relation, more simply that the Watch might be important, or that she's destined to return the world to Spring. I don't know.

Why not? He's still got Stark blood in him.

The wolves are all siblings. If Jon is not Ned's son, he is not part of the same brood and the parallel doesn't work.

Sorry if that seems feeble, but it's never something that I countenanced. I don't think readers are being really smart by making such a connection, I think it's wishful thinking. Some people like the Targaryens- I don't. Furthermore, as stated earlier, I find the idea that Ned broke his moral code infinitely more interesting than the alternative.

[Piper]

i.) Lie? What lie is that? I don't recall Ned ever saying that he lived a lie.

Sure he does.

(Once again I'll recommend this website that compiles a lot of quotes like this, and where I've stolen all the one's I'll use in this post from. Here's a couple).

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him {Ned}. He had lived lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

AGOT p115

The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

AGOT p504

ii.) Death bed promises. More cheese. But again, I really don't remember any promise being made - sorry.

You don't remember the chorus of "Promise me, Ned?" from his thoughts in AGOT?

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

AGOT p43

"I will," Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

AGOT p380

iii.) Surely this would make more sense if the mother was still alive? Ned trusts Catelyn implicitly, so that would suggest to me that he could tell her if the mother was Lyanna - because that would alleviate any tension. Of your points this seems the weakest.

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. So secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.

AGOT p357

Lyanna could very easily have made part of her promise that he tell no one. And if Ned kept that promise, then Cat would be covered by it.

iv.) Because Rhaegar is a possessive mad bastard?

Quite out of character for him, though, no? Baristan and Jorah seem to hold him in the highest regard. Besides, after the death of Rhaegar and Aerys, shouldn't they be with Viserys? Ned certainly seems to think so.

v.) I have no idea. If this comes from the dream-palace bit (Quarth?) I'm afraid I didn't bother to think about it too much. I found that section tiresome, as I did all of Dany's sections ( I despise her). But the quote does not suggest to me that there is any blood relation, more simply that the Watch might be important, or that she's destined to return the world to Spring. I don't know.

Blue roses = Lyanna:

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

AGOT p425

Her {Cersei's} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."

Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.

AGOT p480

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

AGOT p501

Something related to Lyanna at the Wall? Hmmm . . .

[Gilgamesh]

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him {Ned}. He had lived lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

AGOT p115

Ok, fine. But I think it's somewhat a leap to posit from this that Jon is Lyanna + Rhaegar's son. He is, after all, talking about the actions of the Lannisters at the time.

The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

AGOT p504

Not applicable in this context. I accept that it is evidence of Ned not always being entirely devoted to the truth, but this quote is in reference to Joffrey.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

AGOT p43

Again, I would suggest this is a case of wishful thinking. The direct implication being that she wished to return to the North, but a promise could equally be anything. Is it likely that Lyanna loved the son of the man who murdered her father and brother? I would find it somewhat disingenuous if GRRM suddenly revealed that Lyanna died in childbirth/whatever, after we were privy to the thoughts inside Ned's head.

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

Which surely implies Jon Snow is his own son does it not?

Quite out of character for him, though, no? Baristan and Jorah seem to hold him in the highest regard. Besides, after the death of Rhaegar and Aerys, shouldn't they be with Viserys? Ned certainly seems to think so.

I've always been deeply suspicious of Rhaegar. If he was so good, how did he not prevent his father from his monstrosities? What justification is there? Evidently we have much to learn about the whole saga, but I do not believe Rhaegar to be as good as many believe him. He is Targaryen, after all.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."

Lyanna may well be associated with pale blue roses, but the quote merely specifies a blue flower. I am not convinced!!

[Hidden Prince]

Not applicable in this context. I accept that it is evidence of Ned not always being entirely devoted to the truth, but this quote is in reference to Joffrey.

Not really true. It just as easily refer to his own lies. We know he laments about them during AGOT. What are his lies is the question. His reasoning is left ambiguous for a reason.

Again, I would suggest this is a case of wishful thinking. The direct implication being that she wished to return to the North, but a promise could equally be anything. Is it likely that Lyanna loved the son of the man who murdered her father and brother? I would find it somewhat disingenuous if GRRM suddenly revealed that Lyanna died in childbirth/whatever, after we were privy to the thoughts inside Ned's head.

There are scenes that are very ambiguous but that the entire reasoning we have huge topics like this one dedicated to this one issue. Lyanna might very well have love him but it honestly up in the air if she did but she certainly did seem to take a liking to him Harrenhal.

Which surely implies Jon Snow is his own son does it not?

Possibly but he could be referring to Rhaegar or just in general. The scene on the surface looks like he is but generally R+L=J is something that is meant to be as fairly discreet as possible.

I've always been deeply suspicious of Rhaegar. If he was so good, how did he not prevent his father from his monstrosities? What justification is there? Evidently we have much to learn about the whole saga, but I do not believe Rhaegar to be as good as many believe him. He is Targaryen, after all.

Rhaegar was not in King's Landing at the time when Brandon and Rickard Stark were killed. He was probably with Lyanna but we don't know exactly where. Rhaegar is generally shown in a positive light by all others except Robert. He certainly wasn't a perfect person but that was the general consensus. Even Ned and Jaime seemed to think of him in a somewhat positive light. I think you might have something against Targaryen because so far they've not have been shown to be anymore evil than the rest of us. Sure, they were a few crazies but there were many more good people in the family.

Lyanna may well be associated with pale blue roses, but the quote merely specifies a blue flower. I am not convinced!!

And what per se is a rose if not a flower? The winter roses would probably not be recognizable to Dany, who hasn't ever lived in Westeros but calling it a flower doesn't really change much. The blue roses are the only thing we have been given yet to make a connection with that prophecy.

Honestly you don't have to be convinced. R+L=J relies on a person to look behind what they are told and put together the hidden details to derive a conclusion. It seems as much as you criticize R+L=J for wishful thinking you seem to be the one that does the most of it. Denying R+L=J on your own preference for Jon being a bastard. The evidence is there, you don't have to agree or like it but it's not crackpot.

[Piper]

Ok, fine. But I think it's somewhat a leap to posit from this that Jon is Lyanna + Rhaegar's son. He is, after all, talking about the actions of the Lannisters at the time.

Remember my initial challenge to you was not "it must be that R + L = J, because of evidence x, y, and z." It was that there are certain mysteries that must be explained, and R + L = J does a brilliant job of answering about a half dozen of them in one fell swoop. I was merely establishing one such mystery, one that haunts Ned for a decade and a half. What else could it be? I'm sure there are other answers, I just think R + L = J works as well or better. You are perfectly entitled to disagree. Its what makes this board so fun and this topic so long.

Not applicable in this context. I accept that it is evidence of Ned not always being entirely devoted to the truth, but this quote is in reference to Joffrey.

I would think the "gods forgive me" part implies he has taken the thought and applied it to himself.

Again, I would suggest this is a case of wishful thinking. The direct implication being that she wished to return to the North, but a promise could equally be anything.

I think the direct implication is indeed that, and I think its a red herring. Why would it be something that simple be hinted at but not explicitly said? There's a mystery of what she promised, that hasn't been revealed, I think. Its my reading, and you're entitled to yours, but why the constant harping of "promise me Ned" if it was something he had already accomplished?

Is it likely that Lyanna loved the son of the man who murdered her father and brother?

It is possible she loved him. Much is unknown. She wasn't present at King's Landing when those murders took place, I think it is very possible she didn't know of them. But she might have, and isolated Rhaegar from Aerys. She seems like a smart person.

But all of that is somewhat irrelevant. What matters is not if she loved Rhaegar, it is if she loved Jon. And if she did indeed have a child, I think it's a pretty easy point that she would try to make sure he's protected.

I would find it somewhat disingenuous if GRRM suddenly revealed that Lyanna died in childbirth/whatever, after we were privy to the thoughts inside Ned's head.

We do get Ned's thoughts on this. He thinks that "the fever had taken her strength." We also get him thinking about her "bed of blood." So it would seem to mean she died of something from which there was blood, but also a fever. There was a discussion two or three R + L = J threads back or so about some type of fever associated with childbirth. Or it could be a fever that came after, while young Jon was a few days or weeks old. It doesn't have to be from childbirth, with the "bed of blood" being merely a metaphor for still being confined to the bed in which she did earlier bleed in, eg give birth. But the mention of a fever, and the description of Lyanna's "bed of blood" either implies that fever from childbirth, or some sort of wound and infection, imho, and I find that wound theory lacking an assailant.

Which surely implies Jon Snow is his own son does it not?

Its an interesting line. One might say it is more suggestive of Jon being a bastard, than anything. No one disputes Jon looks like Ned, or that a nephew can look like his uncle. The part about filling men with such lust is more interesting when coupled with the line (from the same chapter, I think) that Ned recalled Rhaegar as one who wouldn't be tempted by brothels. There is an odd disconnect there for the theory, I fully admit that.

I've always been deeply suspicious of Rhaegar. If he was so good, how did he not prevent his father from his monstrosities? What justification is there? Evidently we have much to learn about the whole saga, but I do not believe Rhaegar to be as good as many believe him. He is Targaryen, after all.

He does say to Jaime, as he is about to ride off to the Trident, that he would deal with his father when he returned. He had just returned from the south, presumably from the ToJ. So he was not around for his father most recent and most heinous atrocities.

As for "he is Targaryen, afterall," remember that everytime a Targ is born, a coin is flipped. Which side did Rhaegar's land? I think the evidence points the way other than the way his father's did.

Lyanna may well be associated with pale blue roses, but the quote merely specifies a blue flower. I am not convinced!!

So continue to be unconvinced. Again, healthy debate is what keeps this fun.

[bacchys]

Again, I would suggest this is a case of wishful thinking. The direct implication being that she wished to return to the North, but a promise could equally be anything. Is it likely that Lyanna loved the son of the man who murdered her father and brother? I would find it somewhat disingenuous if GRRM suddenly revealed that Lyanna died in childbirth/whatever, after we were privy to the thoughts inside Ned's head.

I disagree it would be disingenuous. If GRRM is looking to have Jon's parentage as one of the mysteries in the series, he can't exactly spell it out in Eddard Stark's thoughts. Moreover, we aren't privy to all his thoughts, just some of them. The tale is written in the third person, and we aren't given everything that runs through the minds of the POVs.

Eddard's comments are ambiguous, and I would submit they are deliberately so. Regardless of where GRRM finally takes the tale of Jon's parentage (and he has said we will know the answer to that riddle before it's all over), he's dropped clues along the way to intrigue and confound the reader.

[Shewoman]

Gilgamesh, since Robert's Rebellion ended fourteen years ago, Ned has claimed to be Jon Snow's father. He's told Robert and Cersei this and indicated it to Catelyn (when she asked who Jon's mother was, Ned got angry and said "He's my blood!" which probably is true, no matter how you look at it.) But if Ned isn't actually Jon's father, Ned has lied every time he's claimed that he is. My impression of Ned's character is that he doesn't like to lie to people ha cares about (like Robert and Catelyn).

We don't know what promise he made to his dying sister that eased her deathbed. Based on Ned's subsequent actions, it may have been something like "protect my child," "Raise my son with your children," or, possibly, "never tell anyone who his father really was. These are all guesses on my part, of course.

Why can't Ned tell Catelyn about Jon's parentage? He can't tell ANYBODY if Jon is actually a surviving male Targaryen heir, a son of Rhaegar. Robert would never let him survive--and probably Ned's family would pay for keeping that secret as well even if they didn't know the secret.

The Kings Guard obey royalty. They are probably at the Tower of Joy because a member of the royal family ordered them there. It's hard to answer why they don't seem to want Jon's existence to be known when we don't know what their orders were. If they were ordered by a royal personage, even if he's dead now they might still feel bound to complete the task he assigned them anyway.

You asked for a better interpretation of the blue flower at the Wall filling the air with sweetness. "Sweetness" kind of trips me up, because I don't know to whom it refers if not Jon, and Jon never struck me as particularly sweet.

When Ned thinks of Jon, who looks like Ned, he is clearly thinking of Jon as a bastard. I think Jon is a bastard in actuality.

[Blackthrone]

When Ned thinks of Jon, who looks like Ned, he is clearly thinking of Jon as a bastard. I think Jon is a bastard in actuality.

Whether Jon is a bastard or not, Ned has no reason to think he isn't. Remember, Ned does not know the reason why Rhaegar wanted to have another child; Ned is entirely ignorant of the whole prince-that-was-promised deal that Rhaegar was so obsessed with. As far as Ned knows, Rhaegar just got horny and sick of banging a sickly Dornishwoman, and decided it would be romantic to crown someone else the queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal; Lyanna, being impulsive and somewhat attracted to Rhaegar anyway, played along; things proceeded downhill from there, aided by the Mad King. In reality, it may have been important to Rhaegar that Jon be his legitimate son, the better to serve as a potential heir or maybe even something more important than that, but Ned has probably not figured that out.

[bacchys]

When Ned thinks of Jon, who looks like Ned, he is clearly thinking of Jon as a bastard. I think Jon is a bastard in actuality.

I waver back and forth on that one. While I don't think it's necessary that Jon is born on the right side of the sheets, I can't decide if I think he was, or if events moved too fast for Rheagar and Lyanna and so they never married. That last bit is true whether or not Lyanna ran off willingly or was abducted.

[Piper]

I waver back and forth on that one. While I don't think it's necessary that Jon is born on the right side of the sheets, I can't decide if I think he was, or if events moved too fast for Rheagar and Lyanna and so they never married. That last bit is true whether or not Lyanna ran off willingly or was abducted.

If indeed they married, which I tend to think they did because it's really the only explanation I can buy for the presence of the KG at the ToJ, I like the theory that it was some sort of Northern style wedding, which while we haven't seen, I've always liked the explanation that it involves nothing more than the bride, the groom, a witness (Wylla? Marwyn? Ashara? Arthur?) and a heart tree.

[the silent speaker]

What better interpretation is there for Dany's vision of "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."?

I continue to maintain that the wall of ice in that vision is the metaphorical one Jon is wrapping himself in ("his heart growing ever colder" as Bran's vision put it), and not the literal one spanning the North.

Lyanna, being impulsive and somewhat attracted to Rhaegar anyway, played along

There is absolutely no evidence for the bolded part. No, "she sniffled when he played a sad song" is not evidence. It is no more so for Lyanna falling for Rhaegar than it is evidence for Sansa falling for Marillion.

[Jon Targaryen]

I continue to maintain that the wall of ice in that vision is the metaphorical one Jon is wrapping himself in ("his heart growing ever colder" as Bran's vision put it), and not the literal one spanning the North.

So it's still Jon then? Does that change anything the R+L=J supporters say?

There is absolutely no evidence for the bolded part. No, "she sniffled when he played a sad song" is not evidence. It is no more so for Lyanna falling for Rhaegar than it is evidence for Sansa falling for Marillion.

I think there is room for debate as your denial of it shows. It's not like the color of a character's eyes where there are clear right and wrong answers. It's up for debate.

[the silent speaker]

Well, it means "the blue flower affects Jon," not "Jon is represented by the blue flower." It doesn't rule out a pro-R+L interpretation, but you're not forced into one; particularly, learning that his birth mother was Lyanna is unlikely to change Jon's mind about how hard the Lord Commander needs to be. The blue flower doesn't have to be Lyanna, and if it is it doesn't have to be Lyanna by way of Jon. (Lyanna by way of Arya is at least as likely, especially in terms of "what might affect Jon"; Arya is not Lyanna's literal daughter, obviously, but she's compared to her -- in looks, temperament, interests, even skills -- more often than Jon is.)

I think there is room for debate as your denial of it shows.

Er, what? I said there's no evidence. I cited the most commonly claimed 'piece of evidence' pre-emptively with an illustration of why it is not evidence of anything. Sure, we can debate anything we like, but Lyanna's sniffles do not become evidence by assertion.

[Jon Targaryen]

Well, it means "the blue flower affects Jon," not "Jon is represented by the blue flower."

I'm sorry, I don't get this. Not trying to be sarcastic or anything, just don't understand.

Er, what? I said there's no evidence. I cited the most commonly claimed 'piece of evidence' pre-emptively with an illustration of why it is not evidence of anything. Sure, we can debate anything we like, but Lyanna's sniffles do not become evidence by assertion.

My point is that if it was "absolutely" not evidence then there wouldn't be a point in denying it. It would be like saying someone Robert's eyes are green. "No, they're blue." End of story. It's up to interpretation and not "absolutely" wrong like Robert's eyes being green is.

It's not "absolutely" evidence either, of course.

[SFDanny]

There is absolutely no evidence for the bolded part. No, "she sniffled when he played a sad song" is not evidence. It is no more so for Lyanna falling for Rhaegar than it is evidence for Sansa falling for Marillion.

It's not quite just that she cried when he played his song at the Harrenhal tourney. It's also that she died holding the same type of flowers, if not the same flowers, that Rhaegar gave her after he won the jousting competition at the same tourney and crowned her the queen of love and beauty. That suggests something more than a fondness for the quality of Rhaegar's singing voice. And, yes, that is evidence. It's evidence that on her deathbed that memory was very important to Lyanna. Can you interpret it some other way? Sure, and others have tried to do so - sometimes with comical conclusions - but without further evidence the most likely conclusion seems to me to be Lyanna died loving Rhaegar.

[Prince Rhaegar Targaryen]

Also, "Rhaegar dying for the woman he loves" (paraphrased) somehow implies more than just an abduction. If Lyanna was forced in any way, "love" would be a weird description on Rhaegar's part.

[Piper]

Also, "Rhaegar dying for the woman he loves" (paraphrased) somehow implies more than just an abduction. If Lyanna was forced in any way, "love" would be a weird description on Rhaegar's part.

Its a very interesting line, as it is essentially Viserys recollection of the events, recalled by Dany from his stories:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.

Viseys was quite young at the time, five or six I think; how would he have known that Rhaegar was "dying for the woman he loved" unless he heard it from someone else? From whom?

ETA: Later, Dany seems all the more unsure of Rhaegar's relation with Lyanna. From talking with Baristan, then still Arstan, in Storm:

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!†said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?â€

Nothing mentioned about how Rhaegar loved her so much he would die for her. More confusion than romance. Seems inconsistent with her thoughts above, really.

[Shewoman]

Blackthrone said that Ned has no reason to think that Jon is NOT a bastard. I'm not sure that's true. He spoke with Lyanna beore she died and promised her something. I think Ned knew the answers to the questions we're asking because of that conversation, but unfortunately he didn't take good notes. If Jon was in actuality just a bastard, I'm not sure what the Kings Guard were doing in the vicinity.

[bacchys]

Its a very interesting line, as it is essentially Viserys recollection of the events, recalled by Dany from his stories:

...

Nothing mentioned about how Rhaegar loved her so much he would die for her. More confusion than romance. Seems inconsistent with her thoughts above, really.

I've read that incongruity as showing that Danaerys herself doesn't know any of this, she just has Viserys's storytelling to go by. Viserys may well have meant Lyanna (but not named her), and young Dany took that as Elia, even though Rhaegar dying in the Trident for Elia doesn't really make sense given how the Rebellion started in the first place.

She's still a girl when this story ends. Her body has met the cultural requirements for being a woman, but she's very young and not exactly well-educated in the events which led to her life in exile. Viserys was probably not the most dispassionate of sources.

[bacchys]

Also, "Rhaegar dying for the woman he loves" (paraphrased) somehow implies more than just an abduction. If Lyanna was forced in any way, "love" would be a weird description on Rhaegar's part.

Viserys probably idolized Rhaegar. I'd be surprised if any version he told of the Rebellion had Rhaegar raping or coercing Lyanna in any way, regardless of the truth of the matter. If he even knew the truth. We don't know Ser Willem Darry, but the slight glimpse we have of his character from Danaerys doesn't lend one to think he would tell a young boy his older brother and hero was a rapist.