The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[ArikHorn]

Is there any evidence that Eddard knew that Rhaegar (possibly) was the father of Lyanna's child? Eddard thinks Rhaegar in King's Landing, for the first time in some while (years?), but there doesn't seem to feel much towards him, considering.

Maybe he thinks his sister just had a bastard, father unknown, and that's why he felt shame and sorrow when he was in the in the dungeon at King's Landing, before thinking that he wanted to sit and talk with him again.

Would Robert be okay with Jon, if he knew he was Lyanna's child? Eddard would still have to promise to protect Jon (although, since Lyanna was pretty out of it, she may have thought he somehow knew who the father was without telling him) regardless.

[Piper]

Is there any evidence that Eddard knew that Rhaegar (possibly) was the father of Lyanna's child? Eddard thinks Rhaegar in King's Landing, for the first time in some while (years?), but there doesn't seem to feel much towards him, considering.

Maybe he thinks his sister just had a bastard, father unknown, and that's why he felt shame and sorrow when he was in the in the dungeon at King's Landing, before thinking that he wanted to sit and talk with him again.

Eh. He knew Lyanna and Rhaegar had been shacked up for months, having sex during that time. Seems unlikely it would have been anyone else's.

Would Robert be okay with Jon, if he knew he was Lyanna's child? Eddard would still have to promise to protect Jon (although, since Lyanna was pretty out of it, she may have thought he somehow knew who the father was without telling him) regardless.

Its impossible to know for sure, but Robert has a few reasons to hate that kid: firstly, he represents Rhaegar, who stole his betrothed and raped her repeatedly; secondly, he represents Targaryens in general, and Robert hates Targaryens ("I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.â€) (“Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?†“To put an end to Targaryens!â€); thirdly, the child of Rhaegar represents a challenge to Robert's claim to the throne.

And remember that Ned had ridden off from King's Landing after having a spat with Robert over the murder of Rhaegar's kids by Elia, which Ned viewed as disgusting but Robert was relieved about. Was it so hard to imagine that Robert's hatred, which he had just seen such a naked display of, would overpower his feelings for Lyanna and her child? Seems like a reasonable view to me, given what Ned had just seen.

[bacchys]

That Robert would react violently and fatally to any offspring of Rhaegar's- even by Lyanna- is certainly a reasonable fear on Eddard's part, even if we're never going to see it put to the test.

[Guest Other-in-law]

How do you know that? I've argued this over and over. There is no indication in the text of the Darkstar's age. A lot of assumptions on people's parts, but no textual evidence. Now, I should say I find the idea that Ser Gerold Dayne is Ned and Ashara's child much more than a bit far fetched, but it is not his age that rules it out. It's the fact, as the originator of the idea even admits, there is absolutely nothing to support it.

I don't recall what all was said the other times this came up, but I found something that may be new and has a slight bearing on the question:

"I ask leniency only for my friends."

"How noble of you."

"What they did they did for love of me. They do not deserve to die on Ghaston Grey."

"As it happens, I agree. Aside from Darkstar, your fellow plotters were no more than foolish children."

That can be interpreted many different ways, though....He could mean that Darkstar is also a child, just not a foolish one. Or that he was also a foolish child,but more than that. Or he could be using "children" in a non-literal, pejorative sense. Indeed, that seems to be the case. Arianne is "three and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown" and her thoughts on the company of five (her, Tyene, Garin, Dreay, and Spotted Sylva) at the water gardens sound like they were all of approximately the same age. Tyene was also 23, and Nym (25) sometimes joined them, but Sarella (19) seems to have been unwelcome and Trystane was too young. Drey was nearly Tyene's and Arianne's first men, and Garin and she had shared his mother's teat at the same time. Most likely they are all within a year or so of each other, say 21 to 25 at the widest range. If so, it would sound odd if Darkstar was yet a teenager, but Doran called his older co-conspirators 'children', but not him.

[Errant Bard]

Lyanna may well be associated with pale blue roses, but the quote merely specifies a blue flower. I am not convinced!!

Just to go back on that, the narrative may tell us it's a blue flower in the House of the Undying chapter, but we know it's a blue rose from a later Dany chapter, where Jorah recounts what she saw, and then he clearly says "A blue rose", something only Dany could tell him.

My contention, as always, would be that a blue rose vision is not really necessarily representing Lyanna. It's associated somewhat with her, but more generally through the association to Stark maidens, and so it has as less chances of representing a male Stark/Targaryen offspring than an actual Stark maiden looking like Lyanna, or an actual blue rose. It's of course convenient for the theory to consider the "Wall of Ice" to be literal and the flower metaphorical, but it's really not the only interpretation.

[SFDanny]

I don't recall what all was said the other times this came up, but I found something that may be new and has a slight bearing on the question:

"I ask leniency only for my friends."

"How noble of you."

"What they did they did for love of me. They do not deserve to die on Ghaston Grey."

"As it happens, I agree. Aside from Darkstar, your fellow plotters were no more than foolish children."

That can be interpreted many different ways, though....He could mean that Darkstar is also a child, just not a foolish one. Or that he was also a foolish child,but more than that. Or he could be using "children" in a non-literal, pejorative sense. Indeed, that seems to be the case. Arianne is "three and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown" and her thoughts on the company of five (her, Tyene, Garin, Dreay, and Spotted Sylva) at the water gardens sound like they were all of approximately the same age. Tyene was also 23, and Nym (25) sometimes joined them, but Sarella (19) seems to have been unwelcome and Trystane was too young. Drey was nearly Tyene's and Arianne's first men, and Garin and she had shared his mother's teat at the same time. Most likely they are all within a year or so of each other, say 21 to 25 at the widest range. If so, it would sound odd if Darkstar was yet a teenager, but Doran called his older co-conspirators 'children', but not him.

Thanks, OIL, I hadn't thought of interpreting that passage in that way before. My own read of it was to view Doran's comment as not a comment on the age of Ser Gerold, or really much of a comment on the ages of the other plotters who we know to be adults, but rather to contrast the foolish and unthinking nature of the people involved with the malicious act the Darkstar. Ser Gerold obviously makes a decision to kill Myrcella in order to start a war. The others are playing in their fantasy world of political intrigue and have little of no evil intent toward Myrcella or Doran. It's the contrast in motivation I think is behind the line, not the contrast in ages. However, yours is a legitimate read, and as I said I hadn't thought of it before.

This is something I've debated with others around what I consider an openly crackpot theory where Ser Gerold turns out to be Rhaegar's son, Aegon. The theory is fun to toss around, but extremely unlikely to be true. My only real problem has been with the assumption that the Darkstar must be too old to be consider for that role. It wouldn't bother me one bit to find out that is true, but I can't find anything in the text that tells me it must be so. Thanks again for the new look at this subject.

[Guest Other-in-law]

This is something I've debated with others around what I consider an openly crackpot theory where Ser Gerold turns out to be Rhaegar's son, Aegon. The theory is fun to toss around, but extremely unlikely to be true. My only real problem has been with the assumption that the Darkstar must be too old to be consider for that role. It wouldn't bother me one bit to find out that is true, but I can't find anything in the text that tells me it must be so. Thanks again for the new look at this subject.

While I'm very much convinced that the real baby Aegon was killed by Gregor, I also think there will be an imposter...the Mummer's Dragon from Dany's vision in Qarth. Darkstar still seems like a viable candidate for that, along with Aurane Waters and

SPOILER: aDwD

Young Griff, who si presumably posing as Jon Connington's son at the moment

.

Even if he is up to, say, 8 years too old to actually be Aegon VI, I don't know that that would really be such a problem for those trying to pull the sham off. If we compare to the three False Dmitrys from the Russian time of troubles, powerful noblemen were willing to support what they must have known to be frauds (the widow of False Dmitry I even pretended to recognise False Dmitry II and 'resumed' her marriage with him, despite their sharing no resemblance at all!). It seems to me that Martin must have given the Daynes a similarity in appearance to the Targaryens for some plot-significant reason, and posing a False Aegon would certainly qualify.

Alternatively, I also favour the possibility of Darkstar becoming the Red Keep's new Master of Arms, which seems to be hinted at by Cersei's decision to appoint another Dornishmen and the in-series speculation that Darkstar has fled Dorne. If so, the silvery hair and purple eyes could pay off simply by making Cersei more favourably inclined toward him, as she was to Aurane for his resemblance to Rhaegar.

[Stalker]

If indeed they married, which I tend to think they did because it's really the only explanation I can buy for the presence of the KG at the ToJ, I like the theory that it was some sort of Northern style wedding, which while we haven't seen, I've always liked the explanation that it involves nothing more than the bride, the groom, a witness (Wylla? Marwyn? Ashara? Arthur?) and a heart tree.

Intersting. I hadn't considered that possibility, but it is within the realms of the possible, with Lyanna from the north.

I had assumed a Septon involved, and was thus looking for the books to mention some avaialble Septon walking about the marches during the time of the war.

Its a very interesting line, as it is essentially Viserys recollection of the events, recalled by Dany from his stories:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.

Viseys was quite young at the time, five or six I think; how would he have known that Rhaegar was "dying for the woman he loved" unless he heard it from someone else? From whom?

ETA: Later, Dany seems all the more unsure of Rhaegar's relation with Lyanna. From talking with Baristan, then still Arstan, in Storm:

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!†said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?â€

Nothing mentioned about how Rhaegar loved her so much he would die for her. More confusion than romance. Seems inconsistent with her thoughts above, really.

I took that to mean that she was less trusting of Viserys' word, and thus seeking confirmation elsewhere. A sign of maturity, if anything.

[Shewoman]

Ned spoke with Lyanna and promised her something before she died. I think it's likely that he knew who Jon's father was.