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Werthead

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

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[quote name='Maia' post='1661739' date='Jan 25 2009, 09.17']Lady Blackfish, IMHO those people merely wanted to exalt Jon to the promised saviour status ;) . Despite Jon's complete lack of fulfilling any prophecies so far mentioned, I must add.
"Three heads has the dragon" and the bis dato unexplained conviction that the 3 heads must be siblings, provide a much more plausible explanation, IMHO.[/quote]


Mmmm, and what of the prophecy of the blue rose growing in a wall of ice?

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[quote name='Szar' post='1661750' date='Jan 25 2009, 10.40']Given that no one remarks even once on Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne's age, I seriously doubt he's of an age with Jon, who's frequently called 'boy'. Jon is, what, 16 in AFfC?[/quote]

Robb was 16 at the Red wedding. If R+L=J is true then Jon should be a few months older than Robb, but Eddard would want people to think Jon was a few months younger (since he was supposedly conceived later). There's actually some confusion about this in the timeline for the re-read project. By the start of affc Jon may have been 17. By the end...17 or 18 I would guess. It's a little bit of a stretch age wise but not impossibe.

This is a more detailed post on the topic I put on another thread.

"Pg 301 affc grrm spends a page and a half describing Gerold Dayne. That's about three times as long as the description of any other character, that means Darkstar is important. Also, GRRM is reported to have been upset when he found out readers were mocking Darkstar, the only other time I ever heard about grrm caring about the fan's opinion of a character was Sandor Clegane, he was surprised how much we liked him. So grrm wants us to respect Gerold.

The physical description is silver hair with a black streak that looks black in the moonlight. Eyes that look black in the moonlight but are actually dark violet. An aquilline nose (I don't remember a character with an aquilline nose). The most attractive man in Dorne (Rheagar was very attractive by all accounts).

Dayne has no parents listed in the description of minor houses but he is described as coming from high quality birth and he names Arthur Dayne and Nedric Dayne as his cousins although they can't both be first cousins. And he is lord of a remote isolated keep (that's why the conspirators needed him).

The major houses with dark coloring are Martel, Stark, and Greyjoy. With silver/violet are Dayne and Targ.

The three most likely scenarios (but certainly not the only)

1) Eddard actually did have a bastard with Ashara, but not Jon. Ashara faked suicide and went into hiding because robert wouldn't believe Eddard had bastards with two different women.

2) Darkstar is Prince Aegon (Martel Targ mix). Varys smuggled him to Doran who hid him with the Daynes...this explains why Doran claimed Darkstar was the most dangerous man in Dorne. Also works out better on the age issue, Aegon should be about a year older than Jon.

3) Darkstar and Jon are twins. Eddard and Ashara split them up so that if one was caught the other would still be safe. Eddard took the one with dark coloring North because he was less likely to draw suspicion, Ashara faked her death and took Gerold into hiding to raise as a cousin of the Daynes."

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There's some difficulty in figuring out Robb's and Jon's ages. Catelyn believes that Robb is older.

Szar, why do you think Jon is a few months older than Robb? Are you assuming that his parents had sex before Ned and Catelyn did (in their case, on their wedding night)? Even if they did, that doesn't mean they conceived first.

We don't know that Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had sex with each other. The fact that Rhaegar's father murdered Lyanna's father and brother might have put a bit of a damper on her interest in getting it on with old Rhae.

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1662196' date='Jan 25 2009, 20.50']There's some difficulty in figuring out Robb's and Jon's ages. Catelyn believes that Robb is older.

Szar, why do you think Jon is a few months older than Robb? Are you assuming that his parents had sex before Ned and Catelyn did (in their case, on their wedding night)? Even if they did, that doesn't mean they conceived first.

We don't know that Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had sex with each other. The fact that Rhaegar's father murdered Lyanna's father and brother might have put a bit of a damper on her interest in getting it on with old Rhae.[/quote]

If R+L=J is true then Jon is PROBABLY older than Robb. Under this theory R&L ran off to the Tower of Joy. When Bandon and Rickard learn about it they travel to kings landing (from where I don't know). Aerys kills them. Eddard and Robert learn about it. Eddard travels to Riverrun and marries Cat in order to secure the support of the Tully's and they conceive Robb. That means R&L were together for at least weeks (possibly months) before Eddard married Cat. Assuming they didn't abstain at first and assuming Lyanna was healthy Jon should be older than Robb.

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1662196' date='Jan 26 2009, 02.50']Szar, why do you think Jon is a few months older than Robb? Are you assuming that his parents had sex before Ned and Catelyn did (in their case, on their wedding night)? Even if they did, that doesn't mean they conceived first.[/quote]

I don't believe Jon is a few months older than Robb -- I believe they are roughly of an age. A month's difference at most, and it's really impossible to say who came first given the timeline we have.

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[quote name='Szar' post='1662267' date='Jan 25 2009, 22.25']I don't believe Jon is a few months older than Robb -- I believe they are roughly of an age. A month's difference at most, and it's really impossible to say who came first given the timeline we have.[/quote]

The issue is whether Darkstar could be Jon's brother without raising comment about his age.

Assuming R+L=J (otherwise it doesn't matter) these are the extremes for age difference.

1) Robb is oldest: R&L run off but abstain before marriage. Within a day Brandon and Rickard who were visiting the Vale hear of it. They race to KL and are killed they day they arrive. A raven is sent to Jon Arryn demanding Eddard and Robert. Eddard races to Riverrun and marries Cat. Under this scenario Eddard hooks up with Cat a few weeks before Rhaegar hooks up with Lyanna.

2) Jon is oldest: Lyanna is travelling in the south and between cities meets and hooks up with Rhaegar. They don't abstain. It is a month before anyone notices she is missing and sends a raven to winterfell. Brandon and Rickard travel overland to KL (takes a month) they are killed within days of arriving. A raven goes to the Vale demanding Eddard and Robert. Eddard travels to Winterfell, raises an army and marches south (four months). He doesn't stop at Riverrun but goes straight into the battle of the Bells. After the Battle the Baratheons and Starks go to Riverrun and consolidate their forces with the knights of the Vale and the Lords of the Riverlands, Ed and Cat marry. Under this scenario Jon could be up to eight months older than Robb.

Realistically Eddard could probably hide the fact that Jon was 2-4 months older but not 8. So Jon COULD be four months older than Robb. And for the R+L=J&D that's all I need to make it possible. Darkstar could have been 17 almost 18 at the end of affc and have been Jon's twin. The age is an issue but its close enough to be plausible.

With the Aegon baby swap theory he could be 19.

Either way Gerold Dayne will be important and his lineage will be important, GRRM spilled a lot of ink on this guy and he will make it pay off.

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What if Darkstar is a Targ (L+R) and Jon a Dayne? Either from Eddard and Ashara or Ashara and her brother?

It would make motivation for bringing Jon to north a bit difficult to guess, i admit.

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[quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1662202' date='Jan 25 2009, 20.57']If R+L=J is true then Jon is PROBABLY older than Robb.[/quote]

Nope. Human reproduction doesn't work that way. Robb was conceived after just one night of sex, but often months or even years of intercourse are required to produce offspring. In any case, with babies under 1 year old it is very difficult to fudge their age unless one of them is seriously starved/sick.

Re: Gerold, if he had been 18-19, would he have been called a "man" by everybody, including the older Arianne? Other people in that age bracket in ASOIAF were always called "boys" by somebody or other, no matter their martial prowess or other accomplishments. I had a distinct impression that Gerold is at least Arianne's age if not older.

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Howlin Howland, Brandon was at Riverrun preparing for his wedding when he heard--somehow--that his sister had disappeared. Rickard was probably at Winterfell, although I suppose he might have been at Riverrun; neither he nor Brandon was at the Vale (Ned and Robert, Jon Arryn's fosterlings, were at the Vale).

Lyanna is apt to have been traumatized when she learned that her father and older brother had been killed . . . by Rhaegar's father, no less. The shock and grief could have interfered with her cycle, making it more difficult for her to conceive. It's also possible that the murders of Brandon and Rickard by Rhaegar's father affected how she felt about Rhaegar himself. If they were having a sexual relationship, those murders may have ended it.

Maia, I also think that Gerold is at least Arianne's age if not older.

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I wonder if it's possible that Ashara and Eddard [b]did[/b] conceive a child at the Harrenhall Tourney. The child produced then being Darkstar, who would be some year and a half older than Jon and Robb.

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I don't think marriage is so...hmm, easy that it can be done without the consent of their parents. Or perhaps simply Eddard didn't know, and went back to his stewardship with Jon Aryn in the Vale. Perhaps they were talking about it, but then Brandon went and got himself killed and then duty required Eddard to marry Catelyn. We do know engagements can last awhile.

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Ned wasn't engaged to Catelyn until after Brandon was killed. No long engagement there. Since the marriages were sealing an anti-Aerys alliance, I think they all got married fairly quickly (Ned/Catelyn, Lysa/Jon).

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1663178' date='Jan 26 2009, 16.11']Ned wasn't engaged to Catelyn until after Brandon was killed. No long engagement there. Since the marriages were sealing an anti-Aerys alliance, I think they all got married fairly quickly (Ned/Catelyn, Lysa/Jon).[/quote]

You misunderstand my words, again. The long term engagement I was referring to was [b]Brandon[/b] with Catelyn, not Eddard. Eddard and his father may have been talking with Ashara and her father about marriage, and may have even engaged. But when Brandon died, Eddard was honor bound to marry Catelyn, the arrangement that came first, thus breaking off any talks or engagements he might have had with Ashara.

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Considering how influential and prestigious the Dayne family seems to be, if Ned had knocked up Ashara at Harrenhal the head of the Dayne household would have demanded a marriage between the two houses. A non-noble bastard is perfectly acceptable, but a bastard born of a noble woman is not.

If Ned or Ned's father had refused to all Ned to marry her after ruining her, well then I'm sure Arthur Dayne would have defended his sister's honour.

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[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1663204' date='Jan 26 2009, 16.21']Considering how influential and prestigious the Dayne family seems to be, if Ned had knocked up Ashara at Harrenhal the head of the Dayne household would have demanded a marriage between the two houses. A non-noble bastard is perfectly acceptable, but a bastard born of a noble woman is not.

If Ned or Ned's father had refused to all Ned to marry her after ruining her, well then I'm sure Arthur Dayne would have defended his sister's honour.[/quote]

Like I said, just a theory. The problem still comes with Darkstar, who has noble blood. If what you said is true, then he had to be born on a common woman from a noble born father. Because, if Darkstar was born from a noble woman, then her father would have demanded a marriage between Ashara and the child's father. Regardless of if it was Eddard or someone else.

Perhaps...Darkstar is Arthur Dayne's child? Hidden away because KG are not allowed to have children?

It's that or he's Rhaegar's son from Elia.

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Or he's just Darkstar, Gerold Dayne, nothing special but his skill with the blade and fondness for getting involved in Dornish intrigue. Not every random character is a king in disguise.

Do we know he's a bastard? Last I heard Darkstar was his nickname, rather than an indication that he was illigetimate, given to him because of his dark moods and such.

If he really was important I should think, being the lost son of Ned or Rhaegar, he would have been mentioned before hand, even in passing.

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[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1663333' date='Jan 26 2009, 17.27']Or he's just Darkstar, Gerold Dayne, nothing special but his skill with the blade and fondness for getting involved in Dornish intrigue. Not every random character is a king in disguise.

Do we know he's a bastard? Last I heard Darkstar was his nickname, rather than an indication that he was illigetimate, given to him because of his dark moods and such.

If he really was important I should think, being the lost son of Ned or Rhaegar, he would have been mentioned before hand, even in passing.[/quote]

Perhaps, but GRRM does spend an unusually large amount of time introducing and describing him. And, we are meant to like him, as supposedly GRRM took offense to when people insulted him. He is important, just how we don't know. Read the Darkstar thread for more information overall on him.

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[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1663333' date='Jan 26 2009, 15.27']Do we know he's a bastard? Last I heard Darkstar was his nickname, rather than an indication that he was illigetimate, given to him because of his dark moods and such.[/quote]

He's not a bastard, else his name would be Gerold Sand, not Gerold Dayne. Darkstar is just a nickname, just like "Kingslayer" or "Sword of the Morning."

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[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1663234' date='Jan 26 2009, 23.35']Like I said, just a theory. The problem still comes with Darkstar, who has noble blood. If what you said is true, then he had to be born on a common woman from a noble born father. Because, if Darkstar was born from a noble woman, then her father would have demanded a marriage between Ashara and the child's father. Regardless of if it was Eddard or someone else.

Perhaps...Darkstar is Arthur Dayne's child? Hidden away because KG are not allowed to have children?[/quote]

Gerold Dayne calls Arthur his cousin.

As wathombe noted, he's also a Dayne, not a Sand. He's at the very least been raised as a true son of House Dayne.

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