Rinso Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='SFDanny' post='1680846' date='Feb 9 2009, 22.35']so far all you have is your wishful thinking about how other writer's work impinges on what Martin has written.[/quote] Actually you misunderstood. It's the other way around. What GRRM has written (or intends to write) may have impinged on what David & Dan have written. But you were right, it's probably just a nitpicking on my side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote](a regrettable product of HBO's phobia about the explicit nature of some of the scenes in the books and young characters)[/quote] "Regrettable phobia"? They're trying to comply with the laws involved. And we [i]want[/i] laws prohibiting child porn, even if it means a fantasy series needs to be altered for television in order to comply with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 On completely different note and off topic, it's ridiculous that they aged up characters like Jon and Robb that will not do anything explicit for the whole first season, but Dany is [i]15[/i] and has a fucking nude scene with a 30 year old man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='the silent speaker' post='1680884' date='Feb 9 2009, 22.27']"Regrettable phobia"? They're trying to comply with the laws involved. And we [i]want[/i] laws prohibiting child porn, even if it means a fantasy series needs to be altered for television in order to comply with them.[/quote] I'm all for laws against child porn, but I've never believed ASoIaF remotely fits into that category. I think it is regrettable that in an overreaction to fears about real problems in our society the ages of the characters have been changed. I'd much rather the writers toned down what is shown on screen if a young actor is involved than to have changed the story. For instance, in [i]AGoT[/i] the scenes with Drogo and Daenerys could easily be shot so that nothing explicit is shown while the viewer knows that sex takes place as the story demands. What I want to see in the HBO series is a script that adheres to the books as closely as possible. Do you disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Here's a line I came across in A Game of Thrones in a conversation between Ned and Robert about the war and Lyanna. Ned's thoughts during the conversation: He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. What lies I wonder? (You've probably all discredited or analyzed this moment already) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 It has been analyzed but hardly discredited. It's one of the catalysts of this entire discussion. :) Ned definitely lies about [i]something[/i], but we don't know what. The most obvious answer is what he's been claiming for the past fourteen years -- that Jon is his son. It's also possible that he's only lying about Wylla being Jon's mother. We just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I think Ned is lying when he says that he is Jon's biological father, although he certainly does love him like a son. He may consider the fact that he is not telling Robert that he, Ned, is raising a child with Targaryen blood to be a lie of sorts. Oh, I'm sure he's never said, "Listen, Bob, I'm not raising a child with Targaryen blood"--but he surely knows that Robert would see Ned's action as traitorous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Especially considering they're talking about the Sack at that point, and he recalls Robert's reaction to the dead children, then thinks of Lyanna straight afterward. If that isn't a honking great sign, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote]I'm all for laws against child porn, but I've never believed ASoIaF remotely fits into that category.[/quote] That's not the point. The laws are there, the laws are good, and if the occasional series (even one that's not child porn) gets snagged up in their normal operation, that's the price we pay for the protections we want and need. It is neither a phobia on HBO's part nor regrettable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='the silent speaker' post='1681660' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.27']That's not the point. The laws are there, the laws are good, and if the occasional series (even one that's not child porn) gets snagged up in their normal operation, that's the price we pay for the protections we want and need. It is neither a phobia on HBO's part nor regrettable.[/quote] We obviously disagree. I believe censorship of material - even self-censorship - that is not close to child porn, such as ASoIaF, because of the fear of having people who can't tell the difference jump up and down in ill-informed outrage is a very bad thing. So, yes, if this series sees changes from the books because of this fear, then that is regrettable because it shouldn't have to happen, and it is a phobia (a unreasonable fear) on the part of HBO who can't see a way to put a great artistic work on its network without butchering it because of possible reactions from idiots - and that is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='SFDanny' post='1681506' date='Feb 10 2009, 18.08']That's possible if you totally discount the conversation Ned recalls in his dream of the event. In it the Kingsguard knows that Viserys is on Dragonstone and Ned questions why they aren't with him. Obviously, Ned thinks they should be there and not out in the middle of nowhere guarding his sister.[/quote] You're right, I had forgotten that particular detail. Looking it up, there's nothing that says they knew about it, however -- Ned is the one who broaches the subject. [quote name='SFDanny' post='1681506' date='Feb 10 2009, 18.08']She refuses Robert if she [i]chooses[/i] to run off with Rhaegar. She refuses to go along with the arranged marriage between her family and House Baratheon because she wants more from it than Robert can offer. She wants not only a man who loves her, but one she loves in return. Imagine that. In short, with what we know of Lyanna we are given a picture of a woman who stands up for what she wants, including against her own family. So, no, I disagree we don't have enough information to make that judgement. Is it a subjective judgement on what we think she would do in order to protect the interests of her child? Yes, it is, but I'd argue it is a sound one.[/quote] Running off with Rhaegar does not necessarily mean she refuses Robert. She's described as a wild girl -- she could want to feel what it's like to be [i]free[/i], with the famous, handsome, exotic prince Rhaegar (who has shown interest in her!) before being shackled to a man she knows will betray her eventually. Remember, she's around sixteen at the time of her death. There's absolutely no indication that she thought about what her actions meant. There's nothing that says she intended to get married to Rhaegar even though she slept with him. Heavens knows that enough teenagers get pregnant without meaning to even in this day and age. We simply do not know enough of Lyanna and her personality to make judgements on why she does what she did (if she even did it). [quote name='SFDanny' post='1681506' date='Feb 10 2009, 18.08']I just wanted to respond to the idea that all of us who believe Lyanna and Rhaegar were married do so because we are in search of some kind of prototype fantasy hero. Nothing could be further from the truth for me, and I think for many others.[/quote] Perhaps. I simply do not see it as necessary for the story or for the characters, and so to me, it sounds -- as I said -- like wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I am going to add my two bits. I call it the 'Christie Test'. You see in several of her books the narrator actually turns out to be the murderer (please bear with me). So it is interesitng to go back and read sections, for instance when he or she describes the murder and the aftermath. Never once do they state that they DID not committ the murder in the first person. The same is true, if memory serves, about the few times Ned and Jon meet and Ned in the first person narrates the story. Does he ever say, for example, 'My son Jon'. I don't think so. The language is more couched circumspect. If you can find me a direct quote, in the first person, to prove me wrong, I would be satisfied. Conor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Btw, about the Lyanna thing above... Am I the only one who would find her horribly hypocritical if she truly ran off with Rhaegar? I mean, she doesn't like Robert, because he's basically a whoremonger who'll never stay true to her. And she runs off with a [i]married man with two kids[/i]? I mean, come on, she basically becomes the type of ditz that she thinks that Robert would fall for when they are married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Lyanna never says she minds what Robert does. She says she knows he won't stick to one bed, and that love won't change his nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Yeah, and that's the reason why she doesn't want to marry him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 She doesn't say she doesn't want to marry him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Look, I'm running with R+L=J here. According to it she runs off with Rhaegar. Why would she do that if she wants to be with Robert? And the thing above is the only reason we are ever given about her feelings towards Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Conor, near the beginning of Game of Thrones, Ned asks, in reference to Robb and Jon, "What have my sons been up to"? or something to that effect (it's right before they find the direwolves). He claims both of them as his sons. Rinso, we don't know whether Lyanna was kidnapped or wandered off on her own or what, exactly, happened to her, except that she ended up at the Tower of Joy. She doesn't say to Ned when they talk about Robert's infidelity that she won't marry him or that she expects to be unhappy. Her statement doesn't seem to be particularly emotional. The fact that she didn't want to marry Robert may not have had anything to do with Robert himself; she may have fallen in love with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 To me, what she said implies unhappiness with the betrothal, because of Robert's habits. And if she ran off with a married man with two children, she is a hypocrite. If she was abducted, that's another story, but most folks seem to think that she ran off willingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Rinso' post='1681843' date='Feb 10 2009, 21.30']Look, I'm running with R+L=J here. According to it she runs off with Rhaegar. Why would she do that if she wants to be with Robert? And the thing above is the only reason we are ever given about her feelings towards Robert.[/quote] She doesn't have to want to be with Robert merely because she doesn't not want to be with him. If that makes sense. She seemed entirely ambivalent about the betrothal to me. I get the feeling she wanted to live a little before being married to Robert, i.e. before acquiescing to her family's wishes, and that's why she ran off with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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