The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Shewoman]

Cowgirl, I think it likely that most of the Tullys and Starks were at Riverrun preparing for the marriage. On the other hand--not that I can speak for Westerosi practices--in general it seems like a lot of the wedding preparations are done by the women (I'm basing this on customs in our culture).

Lyanna might have just gone for a ride. She strikes me as an outdoorsy kind of girl. We also don't know that their marriage customs included bridesmaids. I can't remember if we've heard any reference to "bridesmaids" in the series.

Jon Arryn doesn't hear from Aerys until after Brandon, Rickard, their men, and their men's fathers are killed at Kings Landing.

When you say "the rest of the party hightails it to Kings Landing," I'm not sure what you mean. When Brandon hears that Lyanna is missing, he assembles his men (probably not the work of a moment) and they go to Kings Landing, where he calls on Rhaegar to come out and die. Rhaegar does neither. I doubt that the wedding party made this trip. I've never heard any suggestion that Robert was involved in Brandon's sortie into Kings Landing. Now that I think about it, I'm not at all sure that Robert was at Riverrun for the wedding. I don't remember his being mentioned in any discussion of the wedding or of Brandon's ride to KL. It wasn't Robert's wedding, after all, and I don't know that he knew Brandon Stark all that well. We know that after killing Brandon and Rickard in Kings Landing, Aerys called on Jon Arryn to send him Ned's and Robert's heads. Jon refused and called his banners, as did Ned and Robert. That sounds as if Ned and Robert were with Jon in the Vale, which doesn't seem likely (since Ned's brother was getting married at Riverrun). Perhaps Aerys' order to Arryn told him to find his fosterlings and kill them.

[SFDanny]

Cowgirl and Shewoman, I don't think it is impossible by any means that the Starks are at Riverrun, but I think it is more likely they are in the Vale when the "kidnapping" occurs for the reasons I cited above. Let me add one more. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Catelyn ever even mentions Lyanna. It's as if they never met. We get the idea that when Brandon tells her to wait for him ([i]AGoT[/i] 581) that she doesn't even know Lyanna is missing. We would expect, I think, that if Lyanna disappears from Riverrun that Cat, Lysa, or Edmure might mention that rather important event somewhere in the series. I get the impression that Lyanna's abduction is seen as a very private matter for the Starks, a violation of their family honor and not something they share with even the Tullys. If the Starks are already at Riverrun that is obviously not possible.

I realize this is all highly speculative, but those are my thoughts on the subject, for whatever they're worth.

btw, we do have a couple examples of a wedding in the series, the "Baratheon" boys weddings to Margaery. I don't recall any bridesmaids in either of them; of course, I could be wrong. There is also the difference that with Brandon and Cat there could have been two ceremonies planned, one with a septon and one before a hearttree. Who knows what the latter ceremony would look like.

[Cowgirl]

Hi
Thanks for considering and discussing my question!

i would like to clear up that i didn't think that Robert was at Riverrun, just the Starks.

That being said, I like the resoning given by SFDanny and Aplomb for them to actually be in the Vale. Obviously the deatils have intentionally been left cloudy by the esteemed author so that we would have plenty to discuss in the months and years leading up to a new book!!

You guys (assuming that Aplomb is also a guy, appologies if you aren't) got me thinking that if Lyanna had seen Mya Stone and has the conversation with Ned regarding Roberts fidelity issues soon after, then that must be weighing on her mind. Next i would suppose they might stop at the Crossroads Inn on the way to Riverrun and maybe she sees an opportunity to sneak off down the Kings Road. Maybe she even sent a bird from the Vale to Kings Landing suggesting that Rhaegar sneak off and meet her at the Crossroads...

Just a thought.

[Maia]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1683815' date='Feb 12 2009, 00.21']Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Catelyn ever even mentions Lyanna. It's as if they never met.[/quote]

Indeed. Cat also specifically mentioned that she never saw Ned until their wedding day. IMHO, there is either something weird or a plothole going on with the Stark-Tully interaction.

Namely - the Tullys appear to have missed the Harrenhal tournament, the most briliant event of that time, that has been hosted practically in their backyard by the relatives of the late Lady Minisa Tully. An event that even Aerys bestirred himself to visit, not to mention lots of people from all over the realm.

OTOH, the Starks, who went to enjoy the tourney en force, somehow avoided visiting with their soon-to-be-in-laws the Tullys, although logic would suggest that it would have been both natural and helpful for strengthening the alliance.

All of which is rather problematic. Well, maybe GRRM straightens the logistics out at some point.

[Howlin' Howland]

[quote name='Maia' post='1684142' date='Feb 12 2009, 09.15']Indeed. Cat also specifically mentioned that she never saw Ned until their wedding day. IMHO, there is either something weird or a plothole going on with the Stark-Tully interaction.

Namely - the Tullys appear to have missed the Harrenhal tournament, the most briliant event of that time, that has been hosted practically in their backyard by the relatives of the late Lady Minisa Tully. An event that even Aerys bestirred himself to visit, not to mention lots of people from all over the realm.

OTOH, the Starks, who went to enjoy the tourney en force, somehow avoided visiting with their soon-to-be-in-laws the Tullys, although logic would suggest that it would have been both natural and helpful for strengthening the alliance.

All of which is rather problematic. Well, maybe GRRM straightens the logistics out at some point.[/quote]

I don't know, after the way his daughters behaved around Petyr I can't blame Hoster for keeping them on a short leash.

[Shewoman]

SF Danny, you do make a good case for the Vale. And I don't recall Catelyn ever mentioning Lyanna either. It's possible that they never met. If Lyanna had disappeared from Riverrun, I think Catelyn might have thought of or referred to that at some point. I don't know how long Catelyn and Brandon were engaged or whether they met all of their prospective inlaws during that time.

The Starks may think of Lyanna's abduction as their private affair, but I don't think that the rest of Westeros at the time it happened thought of it that way.

I have wondered about why the Tullys weren't at Harrenhal. Surely they weren't planning Catelyn and Brandon's wedding that early. Why weren't they there?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1684251' date='Feb 12 2009, 10.49']SF Danny, you do make a good case for the Vale. And I don't recall Catelyn ever mentioning Lyanna either. It's possible that they never met. If Lyanna had disappeared from Riverrun, I think Catelyn might have thought of or referred to that at some point. I don't know how long Catelyn and Brandon were engaged or whether they met all of their prospective inlaws during that time.

The Starks may think of Lyanna's abduction as their private affair, but I don't think that the rest of Westeros at the time it happened thought of it that way.

I have wondered about why the Tullys weren't at Harrenhal. Surely they weren't planning Catelyn and Brandon's wedding that early. Why weren't they there?[/quote]

Thanks, I should say that some of this is from Ran's posts on the subject, so to the degree I'm accurately reflecting any of his thoughts he deserves the credit not me. This is especially true about the make up of Brandon's party that he takes with him to King's Landing.

Regarding the private nature of the Starks handling of Lyanna's abduction, I don't mean to say they succeed in keeping it quiet. Obviously once Brandon shouts his challenge to Rhaegar before the Red Keep part of this, at least, is no longer a secret, if it still is up to that point. It just seems to me the Starks don't seem to have informed the Tullys about what is going on.

I haven't a clue to why it seems the Tully girls, if not more of the family, aren't at Harrenhal. As Lord Paramount of the Riverlands Hoster Tully should be there, and his family as well. I don't remember the timing very well off the top of my head, but could it be that this is when the Blackfish argues with Hoster? Perhaps family turmoil explains it, but it is just a guess.

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

I’ve always assumed that the Tully’s absence from the Harrenhal tourney was due to a broad negative feeling they had of the place. I don’t think it’s specifically mentioned why in the books, but there’s enough there to make it a reasonable assumption.

Harren wasn’t such a nice guy and his exploits surely infringed on some lands and peoples that had been in Tully control for a long time. Edmyn Tully was the first to desert Harren for Aegon so it appears they weren’t fond of his presence and were eager to get him out of there. I would think that Harren enslaved many of the Tully’s subjects in the construction of Harrenhal as well. Every house that’s held Harrenhal has met some misfortune. It’s supposedly haunted and has the blood of children mixed in its mortar. Even the Lothstons, who held Harrenhal before the Whents, were said to have a black reputation.

In short, the Tully’s surely hate the very existence of Harrenhal; it’s history and everything it stands for. They might even be scared of the place. Taking any part in any event that might promote it (other than its total destruction) is probably out of the question.

With that said, I’m a little surprised that we haven’t been given more details on why they weren’t in attendance. Maybe they were, but the detail either slipped by GRRM or wasn’t important enough to mention???

-

One other thing (slightly off-topic):

I’ve been absent for a while and I’m trying to catch up, but there was a “Darkstar thread” mentioned upthread. Can someone point me to it, please? I found the “Darkstar Hate thread”, and while extremely funny, I’m skeptical to think that that’s the one that was recommended earlier in this thread.

[Shewoman]

There's a "Can Darkstar Be Rehabilitated" thread under "General" now.

[Maia]

[quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1684150' date='Feb 12 2009, 09.21']I don't know, after the way his daughters behaved around Petyr I can't blame Hoster for keeping them on a short leash.[/quote]

I was under impression that LF's duel with Brandon and Lysa's subsequent pregnancy happened _after_ Harrenhal. And Cat's behavior around LF was wholly normal and proper. Nor was I ever under impression that Cat was kept on a "short leash" by her father or Lysa either, before her disgrace. She wouldn't have had the opportunity to sleep with Petyr otherwise.

Re: Harrenhal, as Hoster Tully married a Whent, he couldn't have been all that unhappy about it. And it doesn't seem like a good reason to avoid the tourney - it isn't like bad luck falls on those who just visit Harrenhal, but only on those who hold it.

Re: Cat's betrothal, she has been betrothed to Brandon at the age of 12. Her mother died when she was 8, so they weren't in mourning for her either.

[Szar]

Catelyn played kissing games with Petyr, so, no.

[Aplomb]

It's possible the Tullys were at Harrenhall, just that the various stories and memories we have don't mention them because the Tullys didn't have any role in the important facts. They wouldn't be mentioned in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story because they had no role in that drama (and probably wouldn't even get a passing mention as a Trout Knight in the tourney, as Edmure was too young, Hoster too old, and Blackfish probably already estranged.) They wouldn't be mentioned in the Jaime/Aerys cloak and dismissal memories, or the Rhaegar/Lyanna roses memories.

It is weird to think that Catelyn and Ned both could have been at that tourney but had never met before their wedding, but not impossible. There were tons of people there and it was (I'm pretty sure) before the Brandon/Catelyn betrothal so there was no special reason for the Starks and Tullys to mingle. They might have been at the same huge banquets and attended the same events without actually individually meeting each other. Rickard and Hoster undoubtedly would have paid their respects to one another, but they didn't necessarily have to make it a family thing.

[Maia]

[quote name='Szar' post='1684924' date='Feb 12 2009, 20.01']Catelyn played kissing games with Petyr, so, no.[/quote]

When he was 7 and she was 9 or 10. I don't think that this constitutes improper behavior. For all we know it may be completely normal. In any case, there is no indication that Hoster kept Cat on a short leash - on the contrary he seemed to trust her implicitly.

[quote name='Aplomb' post='1684953' date='Feb 12 2009, 20.23'](and probably wouldn't even get a passing mention as a Trout Knight in the tourney, as Edmure was too young, Hoster too old,[/quote]

How do you figure this? We have seen men in their 50-ties compete often enough and he may have been substantially younger than that, in his late 30-ties or early 40-ties during Harrenhal.

[quote]and Blackfish probably already estranged.)[/quote]

Brynden was still living with them at Riverrun, he only left with Lysa, when she married Jon Arryn.

[quote]They wouldn't be mentioned in the Jaime/Aerys cloak[/quote]

Given how Hoster considered marrying Lysa to Jaime, it was something that affected them, though.

[quote]it was (I'm pretty sure) before the Brandon/Catelyn betrothal so there was no special reason for the Starks and Tullys to mingle.[/quote]

Nope, Cat has been betrothed to Brandon since she was [b]12, [/b]so there was every reason to mingle as they were practically in-laws already. The Tullys had to look for a new prospect for Lysa, too and both Brandon and Robert had younger brothers who may have fit the bill.

[Aplomb]

Well, you got me on some of this, because I forgot a lot of stuff. But to follow up:

I don't think Hoster was particularly young back then, we saw him senile and die of old age in the main timeline. At any rate, the jousts usually involve the young looking to make a name for themselves, or the older professional fighting men (Kingsguard, military knights) proving they still have it. Hoster wasn't even a Ser, even if he jousted in his youth to prove he could, I imagine around 40 or earlier he'd admit he couldn't keep up. He didn't need to, he was a Lord. Tywin probably didn't joust much beyond his youth either, for example. So, I think Hoster could easily have been at the tournament but didn't joust because he either didn't like jousting or personally felt too old to do so even though other men his age still did.

As for Brynden still at Riverrun, thanks, I forgot that. Maybe he didn't go to Harrenhal even if Hoster and other Tullys did under some "There must always be a Tully at Riverrun" rule, or maybe he was and just didn't joust. He strikes me as the kind of guy who'd disdain all the pagentry nonsense.

As for Hoster considering a Jaime/Lysa union, I doubt that would come up in Jaime's recollection of Harrenhal. That's where he got his cloak, was expecting to kick ass in the tourney, and instead got sent to King's Landing by Aerys, and his mind was all wrapped up with Tywin's disappointment and his lust for Cersei. I wouldn't expect any half-remembered Tully business to surface in his PoV memories of the importance of that event.

And as for the fact that Cat and Brandon were betrothed since she was 12, thanks, I didn't know or forgot that too. That makes it especially weird that Cat and Ned never met until they were wed. I think that is pretty much conclusive evidence that Cat was not at Harrenhal, Ned was and you'd expect he'd be introduced to his future sister-in-law. It also raises the question, why didn't the whole Stark family stop off at Riverrun on the way to Harrenhal to meet the future in-laws, it's not that far out of the way considering the total distance.

So I am left with: Cat wasn't at Harrenhal, but Hoster could have been there although we don't know. And it's weird that Ned and Cat never met. Maybe the Starks all went north after Harrenhal except for Brandon who went to Riverrun, and that's when the Petyr duel happened.

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1684502' date='Feb 12 2009, 12.01']There's a "Can Darkstar Be Rehabilitated" thread under "General" now.[/quote]
Thanks, Shewoman. I think that thread does contain the heart of what was mentioned upthread here. :cheers:

[quote name='Maia']Re: Harrenhal, as Hoster Tully married a Whent, he couldn't have been all that unhappy about it. And it doesn't seem like a good reason to avoid the tourney - it isn't like bad luck falls on those who just visit Harrenhal, but only on those who hold it.[/quote]
Ah, yes. Thanks, Maia - I forgot about that. It's more odd still then that Hoster, at least, did not attend the biggest event his in-laws could possibly host. (whether Minisa was a daughter, sister or niece of Lord Whent's ???).

I see three possibilities, but I'm sure there are more:

1. The Tully's were there (either in part or full) and not mentioned because they were not involved in the specific events we've had information on so far.

2. The Tully's weren't there for unknown reasons (yet to be revealed? important? reasons)

3. Or, they were there and GRRM omitted them by mistake (or something).

:dunno:

[Venardhi]

Remember we get the story second hand from the Reeds. If Howland never interacted with them, he probably wouldn't have taken much notice of them amongst the rest of the knights and lords and ladies.

[Shewoman]

I doubt that Martin accidentally omitted the Tullys from Harenhal. Perhaps it's going to be important in some way that Ned and Cat didn't meet before their wedding. Ned apparently (according to Meera Reed) had some sort of relationship with Ashara at Harrenhal. Martin might have thought it would make things too complicated if Catelyn was there to observe that, although that doesn't explain the absence of the other Tullys (and it's not like the Ned/Catelyn marriage is nothing but smooth sailing).

[wakiki]

[quote name='Aplomb' post='1685136' date='Feb 12 2009, 22.17']And as for the fact that Cat and Brandon were betrothed since she was 12, thanks, I didn't know or forgot that too. That makes it especially weird that Cat and Ned never met until they were wed. I think that is pretty much conclusive evidence that Cat was not at Harrenhal, Ned was and you'd expect he'd be introduced to his future sister-in-law. It also raises the question, why didn't the whole Stark family stop off at Riverrun on the way to Harrenhal to meet the future in-laws, it's not that far out of the way considering the total distance.[/quote]

One thing to keep in mind is that Ned was living in the Eyrie at the time, so Riverrun was not on the way to Harrenhal for him.

I still agree though, it's odd that they didn't meet before they were married. The Eyrie is, after all, closer to Riverrun than Winterfell.

[VorianGR]

There could be many simple reason why [b]Catelyn[/b] wasn't there. We specifically know Catelyn wasn't there cause she didn't meet Ned till their wedding. However Hoster, Lysa, Edmure or Brynden could be present just not mentioned by Howland who didn't care about them.

Catelyn could be in bed with a flu or something.


And it's not very odd that they didn't meet. Travels are time consuming business and Ned spent probably years without leaving the Eyrie. If he wanted to go home, he would take a ship to White Harbour. And going to Harenhal from the Vale as mentioned doesn't involve Riverrun

[sholtzma]

Is it possible that this is precisely when Lysa has the accidental pregnancy ala LF? If Hoster was stressed about dealing with his daughter's unwanted pregnancy, he might have just made the whole gang stay home. Also, the herbs she was given to abort would have been somewhat dangerous and she probably couldn't travel much at this time anyway. I can't remember the exact timeline but could it be a possibility?