seasoup Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='Piper' post='1706842' date='Mar 3 2009, 20.41']Rhaegar could not, I believe, legitimate a bastard. Only the king can do that, and Rhaegar died before his father and thus never possessed that power.[/quote] Makes it seem even less likely then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='seasoup' post='1706854' date='Mar 3 2009, 19.51']Makes it seem even less likely then...[/quote] Indeed. I suspect that if Jon is the legitimate son of R and L, it would be do to a marriage done in the tradition of the North, which some speculate involves nothing more than a heart tree and a witness (Wylla?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clumber Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1706690' date='Mar 3 2009, 17.36']Just like to point this out, because I'm not sure how many of you remember your highschool biology, but... The fact that all of Ned's sons with Catelyn have the Tully looks and colouring is not a coincidence if you ask me. Ned's Y chromosome is weaker than Catelyn's X, resulting in their sons resembling her. Now it can't be said for sure that Ned's looks would yield to all other women's, but I also don't think that it is a stretch to use this as evidence of Jon's parentage. Jon looks like a Stark, and he is the only boy in the family that does look like a Stark. I think this just adds more credence to the suggestion that Jon is Lyanna's son, hopefully by Raegar. :)[/quote] Wait, so if Jon can't be Ned's son, then who is Arya's father? Brandon? Benjen? How do you hve a 'weak' Y chromosome? That doesn;t even make sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirius Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='Clumber' post='1707077' date='Mar 3 2009, 22.12']Wait, so if Jon can't be Ned's son, then who is Arya's father? Brandon? Benjen? How do you hve a 'weak' Y chromosome? That doesn;t even make sense![/quote] It does, but I'm not gonna go into all the details. But Arya is two X chromosomes, meaning that Ned's Y has nothing to do with it. In any event it was a long shot, it just occured to me as I was doing a Bio assignment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='Clumber' post='1707077' date='Mar 4 2009, 05.12']Wait, so if Jon can't be Ned's son, then who is Arya's father? Brandon? Benjen? How do you hve a 'weak' Y chromosome? That doesn;t even make sense![/quote] Recessive genes happen all the time (the 'weak Y chromosome'). As King of the Wolf Pack says, women do not have Y chromosomes. Aside from that, however, it doesn't make much sense. As far as I know, your appearance isn't tied to your Y chromosome, for one thing -- it's spread out over all of your genes. There's also the fact that even if genes did work like that, Jon's mother isn't clearly dominant Catelyn. Even if Ned is Jon's father, Jon's mother's looks could be recessive as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirius Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Like I said, it's a long shot, and now I'm sorry I even brought it up :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Nymeria Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It's been interesting reading all the replies where people discuss genetics here. I love science, and I think it's great to discuss genetics, but I can't help but take a moment and wonder. If you ask me "Why do Arya and Jon have the Stark look, while Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon (?) have the Tully look?", I would answer "Because Mr. Martin made it so!" I can't help but feel that ASoIaF would be a great example of Intelligent Design. Mr. Martin is following the "laws" of nature but he is influencing them, much as the theory states that God works within a certain set of natural laws, but ultimately it's God's will that caused the evolution of man. I know, I know. This is super obvious. Seriously though, Jon and Arya have the Stark look for a reason, and it isn't genetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplomb Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='Piper' post='1706915' date='Mar 3 2009, 20.46']I suspect that if Jon is the legitimate son of R and L, it would be do to a marriage done in the tradition of the North, which some speculate involves nothing more than a heart tree and a witness (Wylla?).[/quote] I can't buy any Legitimate Jon Targaryen scenario, because I don't think the Targaryens were polygamists in the usual sense. They had a tradition of marrying siblings, and sometimes in the context of that tradition (but [i]only[/i] in the context of that tradition) they married more than one sibling. Yes, that is polygamy, but it is secondary to and dependent on the first condition, that sibling marriage be involved. I may be wrong but I don't think there has ever been a case of Targ polygamy that did not involve all parties to the marriage being Targs. Thus I see no way Rhaegar could marry a non-related woman from Dorne, and also a non-related woman from the North, and have anyone think the second marriage was legitimate. That's not only outside Westeros tradition, it's outside Targ tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 How is it dependant on the first condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplomb Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 [quote name='Szar' post='1708208' date='Mar 4 2009, 17.07']How is it dependant on the first condition?[/quote] Well, it's never happened [i]without[/i] that first condition, as far as I know. I don't have time to round up quotes, and therefore admit I may be wrong, but whenever anyone thinks about or discusses Targ marriage practices they don't think about Targs being polygamists. They think about how Targs married siblings, sometimes more than one. It just seems to me the Targs aren't polygamists per se, they are avid interbreeders who sometimes take their interbreeding to the point of polygamy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szar Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Viserys I married an Arryn and a Hightower, I believe. I think what you're seeing is simply the incest overshadowing the polygamy -- it's simply not worth mentioning compared to the incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the silent speaker Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote]Viserys I married an Arryn and a Hightower, I believe.[/quote] Simultaneously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplomb Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Yeah, Viserys wasn't married to both at the same time. The first marriage resulted in a daughter but his wife died, his subsequent second marriage resulted in sons, and the clash between the daughter and eldest son was the Dance of Dragons. There's really no way to resolve this unless Martin has someone come out and confirm it either way, but I think history shows the Targs don't practice polygamy except among themselves. For Rhaegar to marry two non-Targs at the same time would be unprecedented at least. More importantly, if a R + L marriage came to light, even if Rhaegar considered it legitimate at the time, I doubt anyone in Westeros today would be prepared to consider it legitimate (and thus Jon legitimate). Even Dany would reject it, I think, as it would destroy her claim to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasoup Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='Aplomb' post='1708472' date='Mar 4 2009, 20.10']Yeah, Viserys wasn't married to both at the same time. The first marriage resulted in a daughter but his wife died, his subsequent second marriage resulted in sons, and the clash between the daughter and eldest son was the Dance of Dragons. There's really no way to resolve this unless Martin has someone come out and confirm it either way, but I think history shows the Targs don't practice polygamy except among themselves. For Rhaegar to marry two non-Targs at the same time would be unprecedented at least. More importantly, if a R + L marriage came to light, even if Rhaegar considered it legitimate at the time, I doubt anyone in Westeros today would be prepared to consider it legitimate (and thus Jon legitimate). Even Dany would reject it, I think, as it would destroy her claim to the throne.[/quote] Except that Jon and Daenerys are going to go to war together with Jon leading the troops of the North and Dany leading her side there is going to be a big clash that ends in peace with Jon and Daenerys getting married and making the babies. Just remember, you heard it here first. And by first, I mean for the 1000th time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacchys Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy/"]So Spake Martin[/url] [quote]June 06, 2001 Targaryen Polygamy [i]First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.[/i] Yes, there were. Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed. There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be).[/quote] I don't know that that blows up the theory that Targaryens only practice polygamy when it involves other Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='Aplomb' post='1708472' date='Mar 4 2009, 21.10']Yeah, Viserys wasn't married to both at the same time. The first marriage resulted in a daughter but his wife died, his subsequent second marriage resulted in sons, and the clash between the daughter and eldest son was the Dance of Dragons. There's really no way to resolve this unless Martin has someone come out and confirm it either way, but I think history shows the Targs don't practice polygamy except among themselves. For Rhaegar to marry two non-Targs at the same time would be unprecedented at least. More importantly, if a R + L marriage came to light, even if Rhaegar considered it legitimate at the time, I doubt anyone in Westeros today would be prepared to consider it legitimate (and thus Jon legitimate). Even Dany would reject it, I think, as it would destroy her claim to the throne.[/quote] I don't think you make a convincing case that we know what history shows us in this case. If Maegor had eight or nine wives, an unknown amount at the same time, it is hard to believe he only married his sisters when he had more than one at a time. However, what I do believe is the case is that the Targaryen ability to impose their will, including such practices as polygamy, declines with the absence of dragons. They do want they want when a dragon is alive. So, it could be true that Aerys and Rhaegar knew that there would be opposition to a second marriage. It would help to explain why Rhaegar disappears from his father's control when he and Lyanna first leave. It is also an interesting question whether a marriage before a heart tree would be recognized by the southern lords. I don't know if this is what happened, obviously, but it's something to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='Aplomb' post='1708472' date='Mar 4 2009, 19.10']... More importantly, if a R + L marriage came to light, even if Rhaegar considered it legitimate at the time, I doubt anyone in Westeros today would be prepared to consider it legitimate (and thus Jon legitimate). Even Dany would reject it, I think, as it would destroy her claim to the throne.[/quote] Nah, people will always do what they want to do and believe what they want to believe [i]if it's in their own interest to do so[/i]. ;) If a married R+L=J then the North could very well support him because he's "of the North", his mother was a Stark, and he was raised in Winterfell by Ned Stark. Also, Targ loyalists could easily get behind him. The most interesting question to me is, again if Jon is the [i]legitimate[/i] Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne, would Dany oppose or support him? Is she more interested in returning her family to it's rightful place (in her eyes) or having the Iron Throne for herself? Personally, I think it's the former but time will tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Considering Dany cannot have children, Jon at least could be considered an heir, or any of Jon's children as heirs, to her throne. Of course Jon being the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch puts a crimp in this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirius Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hmm, I'm sure this has been thought of before, and likely been deemed not worthy posting, but could Bran end up as one of Dany's riders? I mean he could have some sort of special saddle for that as well. I'm not saying that it is at all likely, it just occured to me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Regardless of if Jon was a heir to the Iron Throne, he gave that birthright up when he took his vows. The only way he can make a claim to the Iron Throne is if the current King of Westeros absolves him of his Brother's Vows. As it stands, Daenerys simply has no reason to view him as a threat due to his parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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